RealGM Top 100 List #17

[Sedale Threatt]

Isn't Robinson already nominated?

[Baller 24]

Yet Nash is running away with the nomination.

How did Nash's production fall off? He plays better in the playoffs.

Never even made the finals while playing on some really good teams.

Playing on some teams that he impacted and turned "really" good.

[Baller 24]

Isn't Robinson already nominated?

Yeah, we're arguing reasons why he shouldn't be selected next.

[Laimbeer]

Isn't Robinson already nominated?

Yep, I think people are upset he's not getting more love in getting to the list. I'm a little surprised, too.

[andrewww]

from what i've tallied it seems like there's almost a deadlock between dirk and lebron, with pettit slightly behind and then followed by barkley.

[ElGee]

Yeah, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. I never bought the ball-dominant argument until this year.

Granted, a lot of the overlap with James and Wade is unavoidable. But it was really eye-opening to me how ineffective he could be at times unless he had the ball, with the Finals being a case example.

Goodness, the guy's almost a physical clone of Karl Malone, with more quickness and explosiveness, and he was unable to even make a basic adjustment by posting up more.

If ElGee is going to hold "offensive awkwardness" against Kareem, or however it was that he termed it, what would you call the inability to adjust one's game, in a way he's entirely capable of doing, in order to blend in better? The whole stand-around-on-the-perimeter-until-I-can-touch-the-ball-again move is pretty lame.

That's a pretty substantial edge in Nowitzki's favor, in my opinion. There is virtually no lineup you could stick him in that he wouldn't be able to function at an optimal level.

I hold the same thing against James as I do Kareem. If he were more seamless off the ball, meshed better in a different, multipolar offense, and most importantly, were a better spot up shooter, I would hold his peak higher than Larry Bird's. I might hold it at MJ level (or gasp, better). So it's a subtle, thing, as is the case with Jabbar, but it's definitely the difference between his current level and offensive GOAT-level stuff.

That said, I'm giving him another year, as I did when Kobe when unipolar, to evaluate that element of his game in a career perspective such as this project.

[colts18]

Isn't Robinson already nominated?

Yep, I think people are upset he's not getting more love in getting to the list. I'm a little surprised, too.

He'll get his love after DIrk and LeBron get selected.

[Dezmondballins3]

I think Robinson is greater because he is a lock down defender an all-time shot blocker. He scores just as well on better efficiency. Rebounds better only thing Lebron does better is assist and is a volume shooter whether that's good or bad IDK. But Robinson also has two rings. He has that 71 point game and a quadruple double.

[Laimbeer]

@ Baller and anyone

I've wondered why Gervin doesn't get similar treatment to Nash. Great offensive player, lousy defender, made bad teams good, didn't get to the finals.

[therealbig3]

I think Robinson is greater because he is a lock down defender an all-time shot blocker. He scores just as well on better efficiency. Rebounds better only thing Lebron does better is assist and is a volume shooter whether that's good or bad IDK. But Robinson also has two rings. He has that 71 point game and a quadruple double.

LeBron is a better playoff performer...he has his problems, like Sedale Threatt and mysticbb pointed out, but overall, as ElGee has helped point out, he still brings it on an all-time level in the playoffs. Robinson consistently faltered on an individual level year after year after year...during his absolute best years.

Robinson's defense went down big time in the playoffs too. Before Duncan came along, the Spurs lost to the Jazz twice and to the Rockets once from 94-96.

94: Malone smokes him, and the Jazz in general have no problems scoring
95: Hakeem smokes him, and the Rockets in general have no problems scoring
96: Malone is held in check, but still outplays Robinson, and in general, the Jazz have no problems scoring

So he's getting owned on an individual level by his matchup, who happens to be one of his contemporaries and another all-time great big, and he's not very effective as a defensive anchor, since the Jazz and the Rockets put up great scoring numbers throughout their series, much better than what they usually did offensively, and much worse than what the Spurs usually did defensively. That falls on Robinson...he's not displaying some all-time defensive presence like his reputation suggests.

If not for the significant lack of longevity for Wade, I'd rank him ahead of Robinson too.

[Dezmondballins3]

Playoff wise Robinson has two rings so i think he gets to much flak for a bundle of games after playing great all season.

[therealbig3]

Playoff wise Robinson has two rings so i think he gets to much flak for a bundle of games after playing great all season.

Tim Duncan says hi.

Robinson took a backseat to Duncan on the way to those titles...LeBron with Wade is different, because LeBron is clearly the 1st option, or is at least 1a.

And really, it's only 1 title that Robinson won as one of the best players, which was 99...he was largely irrelevant in 03.

And finally, this whole project is about ignoring titles and looking at how they individually play. LeBron's better.

[Fencer reregistered]

Bailed out on at least two teams imo, though I agree with him on wanting to leave Philly. They made some awful, awful moves during his time there.

My policy is to give anybody one mulligan on wanting to leave a team. They're not slaves. More than one and they're probably malcontents, however, although special considerations may apply. Major examples of such mulligans are each of Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem to LA, and LeBron to Miami.

Feuds with teammates, however, can be very bad, in that they strongly detract from winning, and we're ultimately evaluating guys on how much they help their teams win.

What about if a player plays the majority of his "useful" career on 2 or 3 teams and then go's ring hunting once he has declined to the point where he doesnt offer much for a team anymore or he really isnt the same player he was for the majority of his Career.

For instance I felt after 06 Shaq was no longer "Shaq" like Wizards MJ you may see flashes of the player he used to be but thats all "Jordan has a 40-50 points game on the Wizards" "Shaq had a 40-50 Point game on the Suns" but it was obvious they couldn't give you anywhere near the same impact or productionthey had earlier in their careers.

So I dont really consider Shaq a "Team Hopper" or anything since he played the Majority of his Career for two teams Orl + LA and then took a pay cut to play two more good years in Miami after that I treat his time with PHX,Cleveland,Boston like I treat Wizards MJ "Never Happened.

Shaq leaving LA was because of Kobe's Ego mixed with Dumb managment and Immaturity on the big fellas part and him leaving Miami was (imo) due to frustration of him no longer being the Shaq we all knew and loved and thus turning Miami from a contender into a weak team that had little chances of contending for a title.

I don't put the blame in LA 100-0 to either side of Shaq/Kobe. So Shaq gets dinged for that one. He also gets dinged for not getting along with Steve Nash while, although diminished, he was still an All-Star. He gets suspicion more than a solid ding for not being on good terms with Miami.

At least from me. I don't expect you to agree with any criticism of Shaq whatsoever.

[JordansBulls]

Playoff wise Robinson has two rings so i think he gets to much flak for a bundle of games after playing great all season.

Tim Duncan says hi.

Robinson took a backseat to Duncan on the way to those titles...LeBron with Wade is different, because LeBron is clearly the 1st option, or is at least 1a.

And really, it's only 1 title that Robinson won as one of the best players, which was 99...he was largely irrelevant in 03.

And finally, this whole project is about ignoring titles and looking at how they individually play. LeBron's better.

That doesn't look like he took a back seat

In 1999 RS

Duncan 8.7 WS
Robinson 8.4 WS

Duncan 23.2 PER
Robinson 24.9 PER

[Sedale Threatt]

Dumb management? I'd say that whole debacle worked out pretty brilliantly.

[penbeast0]

Yet in '04 with Amar'e, Marion, & Joe all fully healthy the Suns went 10-30, and with the simple modifications and additions of Nash & Richardson in the lineup had statistically and historically the 2nd greatest offense of all-time.

With all due respect, "fully healthy" is disingenous as a description of Phoenix in 74. Marion was healthy all year, Johnson was healthy but playing out of position at PG over half the time and shooting like crap because Marbury, the guy they build the offense around missed 50 games while Amare missed 30. The team was in disarry.

In 2003 with rookie Amare playing even more clueless defense than he does now and scoring 13ppg while Joe Johnson was scoring less than 10, Marion and Marbury led the team to a winning record. Not a great team as it was under Nash but just talking 2004 out of context is the same sort of thing you are complaining about in your LONG but interesting post.

[penbeast0]

@ Baller and anyone

I've wondered why Gervin doesn't get similar treatment to Nash. Great offensive player, lousy defender, made bad teams good, didn't get to the finals.

Hopefully he should, once Drexler gets voted in he's the next greatest SG and Drexler should be in the next few players nominated . . . maybe over Payton (my next PG) and Nash . . . waiting for a strong Drexler v. Payton v. Nash (and v. Gervin?) comparisom because I'm too lazy to do it myself.

Other comps I would like to see . . . Pettit v. Barkley v. Dirk with stats adjusted for (a) pace and (b) relative efficiency.

David Robinson v. LeBron, Robinson is currently my second choice though Pettit is my sentimental favorite and I could be convinced to switch fairly easily. Similar argument against both -- playoff fail against top opponent is too clear in everyone's memory.

[therealbig3]

Playoff wise Robinson has two rings so i think he gets to much flak for a bundle of games after playing great all season.

Tim Duncan says hi.

Robinson took a backseat to Duncan on the way to those titles...LeBron with Wade is different, because LeBron is clearly the 1st option, or is at least 1a.

And really, it's only 1 title that Robinson won as one of the best players, which was 99...he was largely irrelevant in 03.

And finally, this whole project is about ignoring titles and looking at how they individually play. LeBron's better.

That doesn't look like he took a back seat

In 1999 RS

Duncan 8.7 WS
Robinson 8.4 WS

Duncan 23.2 PER
Robinson 24.9 PER

First of all, Duncan in the playoffs was better than Robinson in both, and second of all, I actually really don't care about PER or WS.

Duncan lead the team in scoring, rebounding, blocks, and USG%. He was 2nd in assists. He was their best player, pretty clearly.

[Laimbeer]

Really would like to see LeBron pushed down a bit. Dirk isn't my first choice here, but I'd rather it be him. He looks to be the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Changing my vote to Dirk, nomination remains Isiah. Sadly, I don't think anyone is catching Nash.

Vote: Dirk
Nominate: Isiah

[RoyceDa59]

Vote: Bob Pettit
2 time MVP, 1-time champion, 10 time all-nba 1st teamer.

Career stats:
26.4 ppg / 16.2 rpg / 3.0 apg

Nominate: John Havlicek