RealGM Top 100 List #18

[penbeast0]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

John Havlicek

* 8x NBA Champion
* Finals MVP (1974)
* 4x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 7x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 5x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team Selection
* 3x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 13x AllStar
* Basketball HOF Player (1984)

Patrick Ewing

* 1x All-NBA First Team Selection
* 6x All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 2x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team Selection
* 11x All-STar
* Rookie of the Year (1986)
* Basketball HOF Player (2008)

Elgin Baylor

* 10× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 11× All-Star
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1959)
* Rookie of the Year (1959)
* Voted to the Hall of Fame in 1977
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Walt Frazier

* NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
* 4× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 2× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 7x 1st Team All-Defense
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
* 7× All-Star
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

Dwyane Wade

NBA Champion (2006)
7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP

Bob Pettit

NBA Champion (1958)
2× NBA MVP (1956, 1959)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1956, 1958–1959, 1962)
11× NBA All-Star (1955–1965)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1955)
10× All-NBA First Team (1955–1964)
All-NBA Second Team (1965)
2× NBA Scoring Champion (1957, 1959)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

David Robinson

2× NBA Champion (1999,2003)
NBA MVP (1995)
4x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-NBA 1st Team
NBA DPOY (1992)
4x NBA All-Defense 1st Team
4x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
NBA ROY (1990)
10x All-Star

Charles Barkley

# NBA MVP (1991)
# 5x 1st Team All-NBA
# 5x 2nd Team All-NBA
# 1x 3rd Team All-NBA
# 11 times All-Star
# All-Star MVP 1991
# Hall of Fame 2006

LeBron James

# 2x NBA MVP (2009-2010)
# 5x All-NBA First Team Selection (2006-2011)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (2005-2006)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (2009-2011)
# Rookie of the Year (2004)
# 7x All-Star
# 2xNBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)

[penbeast0]

Doctor MJ from a list

VOTE: LeBron James

NOMINATE: Steve Nash

[penbeast0]

FJS from a list

VOTE: LeBron James

NOMINATE: John Stockton

[lorak]

vote: LeBron
nomination: Nash

[penbeast0]

For me this comes down to LeBron James or Bob Pettit. Both were the best player in the league for several years during a period without great centers. LeBron has more skills but people have made some very cogent arguments against him. Pettit looks inefficient at first but that's because he played much of his career when the whole league (other than Pettit and a few other top players) was shooting below .400; relative to his era, he was in the Charles Barkley range of near the top in efficiency because of his ridiculous foul draw.

Here’s the rough statistical breakdown for Pettit and Barkley relative to league averages. I am using 5 year peaks loosely determined by both individual and team success to pick the years. Pettit’s 5 year peak will be 1957 to 1961 – he never dropped below the 23.6 of his final year but while he was MVP and took his team to the NBA finals in 1956, his 61 season was a better team year. It was the last year for STL as the clear 2nd best team in the league. In 1956 and 1963 (outside this 5 year peak) Pettit also led the league in playoff PER -- he really was just consistently great.

The first group of numbers is natural, the second is adjusted to year 2011 numbers, all adjustments are done by simple ratios of league reb-ast-pts-efg/average team multiplied by the players’ per game averages to try to even out pace and relative efficiency.

Bob Pettit Min Reb Ast Pts TS% league efg% W-L
1957 STL 35.1 14.6 1.9 24.7 .494 .380 (34-48)
1958 STL 36.1 17.4 2.2 24.6 .492 .383 (41-31)
1959 STL 39.9 16.4 3.1 29.2 .519 .395 (49-23)
1960 STL 40.2 17.0 3.6 26.1 .510 .410 (46-29)
1961 STL 39.8 20.3 3.4 27.9 .511 .415 (51-28)
(Pettit’s rebounding, assist and scoring went up the next 2 years as the league went into one of its highest pace areas but these were the best STL teams)

1957 adj – 11.0 2.5 28.1 .645 NBA Finals (Celtics)
1958 adj – 11.4 2.7 26.2 .640 NBA Champions
1959 adj – 11.0 3.9 30.6 .654 MVP (lost WCF)
1960 adj – 10.5 3.8 24.6 .619 NBA Finals (Celtics)
1961 adj – 11.9 3.1 24.4 .613 NBA Finals (Celtics)

Charles Barkley had the longer run though his physical conditioning started to catch up to him. Still, his peak also lasted 10 solid years of All-Pro play. I have chosen 1989-1993 for his 5 year stretch, before this period, Philly was not a playoff team, after it, Barkley started missing a lot of time due to nagging injuries.

Barkley Min Reb Ast Pts TS% league efg% W-L
1989 PHI 39.1 12.5 4.1 25.8 .653 .489 (46-36)
1990 PHI 39.1 11.5 3.9 25.2 .661 .489 (53-29)
1991 PHI 37.3 10.1 4.2 27.6 .635 .487 (44-38)
1992 PHI 38.4 11.1 4.1 23.1 .612 .487 (35-47)
1993 PHX 37.6 12.2 5.1 25.6 .596 .491 (62-20)

1989 adj – 11.8 3.4 23.5 .665 (lost in 1st rd)
1990 adj – 11.0 3.4 23.4 .673 (lost in 2nd)
1991 adj – 9.7 3.4 25.8 .649 (lost in 2nd)
1992 adj – 10.5 3.6 23.3 .626 (missed playoffs)
1993 adj – 11.7 4.4 24.2 MVP / NBA Finals (Chicago)




As for the nomination, at center I still favor Artis Gilmore. Artis was a dominant player in the ABA, 1A/1B with Julius Erving as best player, and still an outstanding one once he came to the NBA particularly in terms of scoring efficiency -- counting only his NBA years he is the all time most efficient scorer in league history on decent volume and with good defense and rebounding as well. (2nd most efficient with a stretch of great defense and a Finals MVP when you include the ABA).

Dwight Howard hasn't done enough yet to pass him, Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well and doesn't beat out Artis for efficiency, McHale's main argument. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk.


Scottie Pippen is the greatest wing forward left, Clyde Drexler is the greatest SG, Gary Payton the greatest PG (GOAT defense, very good scoring and playmaking, mentally tough guy -- Yes he is better than either Nash or Stockton mainly because of his defensive edge, was the primary scorer on those Sonic teams too which neither Nash nor Stockton are). I used to say great PGs affect the game more than great wings but the modern era has changed that. If I get the time and energy I will try to make a lengthier post between the three of them but . . .

I would take Gilmore if I were starting a franchise. Until recent rule changes, there were few players with the impact of a great 2-way center; even Havlicek's peak years he was behind teammate Dave Cowens in MVP voting. I could see voting for one of the three outside players and will switch my vote if it is between one of them and a player I rank lower but for now:

VOTE: Bob Pettit

NOMINATE: Artis Gilmore

[Gongxi]

Same as it ever was: LeBron and Artis.

[mysticbb]

For me it comes down to either Barkley or Pettit, after that it is the battle between James and Robinson. I tend to go Pettit, Barkley, James, Robinson. Not quite sure yet, maybe I change my vote later.

Vote: Bob Pettit

Nomination: Steve Nash

[fatal9]

Vote: Barkley
Nominate: Nash

Artis getting nominations...really?

[pancakes3]

those adjusted numbers make Petit look like the Tim Duncan of the 50's-60's.

[penbeast0]

Fatal, are you saying that if you were starting a team in any era of the NBA (not just in the modern one), you would pick the great shooting, flashy passing, weak defense PG over the superefficient, good scoring and rebounding, two way 7'2" center? . . . really?

[Laimbeer]

Fatal, are you saying that if you were starting a team in any era of the NBA (not just in the modern one), you would pick the great shooting, flashy passing, weak defense PG over the superefficient, good scoring and rebounding, two way 7'2" center? . . . really?

Start a franchise, greatest career, and highest prime are all conflicting criteria.

[Laimbeer]

If Hondo wins, I think I'll start nominating Isiah. The leader of the team that defeated three reasonable candidates for Greatest Team Ever (albeit not in their peak years) -- at that repeated as champions in an era when that was still regarded as difficult -- deserves to be in the discussion soon.

True enough, let's see if he gets some traction.

VOTE: Bob Pettit (was clearly best at his position for a long time, denied multiple titles by Russ's Celtics, great career run)

NOMINATE: Isiah Thomas

[An Unbiased Fan]

How is Nash getting nominations over Stock, Kidd, Isiah, and even Payton? He didn't even become an elite player until 2005, and played in an extremely PG friendly system. He's non-existent on the defensive side of the court, and the only one of the group to never even have made the FInals.

[Gongxi]

Making it to the Finals means nothing whatsoever. Worthless. The directions were very explicit to not try to compare resumes. You and several others continue to do this. Why even participate if you won't follow one of the very few directions given?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Making it to the Finals means nothing whatsoever. Worthless.

Oh.....ok.

Silly me, I thought playoff impact mattered.

The directions were very explicit to not try to compare resumes. You and several others continue to do this. Why even participate if you won't follow one of the very few directions given?

People have been using career resumes throughout this project, where have you been. The first post in every single threads lists....the player's career resume. How in the World can you rank the greatest player ever, without looking at what they did. Especially considering that we're comparing players across differing eras, which is tricky to begin with.

[Gongxi]

No one- except for JordansBulls- has been as blatant and obvious about it as you've been. How about you rate players on how they play, not whether or not they and 11 other dudes coached by another dude, all hired by another dude, made it to the Finals? This really isn't that hard.

[An Unbiased Fan]

No one- except for JordansBulls- has been as blatant and obvious about it as you've been. How about you rate players on how they play, not whether or not they and 11 other dudes coached by another dude, all hired by another dude, made it to the Finals? This really isn't that hard.

Yeh, I already have been rating players by how they play. BUT basketball is a team sport, so how a player impacts that team's success is a factor too.

[JordansBulls]

Wrote this in the last thread.

I'm taking Bob Pettit. Pettit won the 1st MVP of the league and won another one with Russell in the league and actually beat the Celtics with Russell on it and it was the only series Russell lost with HCA. Now it is true that Russell missed a lot of the series, but here is a few details as well:


Look at the 1958 finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm

Pettit shot bad who shot 58/137 or 42% FG, but Russell shot even worse. He shot 17/49 for 35% FG as a Center in the finals and overall Russel shot 36% in the playoffs that year. People say it was defense, but when you look at every team, each one of these guys were pretty pathetic.



Pettit first 3 games

11-22
8-20
10-23


Russell first 3 games

4-15
7-15
4-12


Game 4 Russell missed and Pettit was 3-17. So Pettit was on lock once Russell was gone.

Game 5 Russell missed and Pettit was 7-21 that game.


Game 6 Russell comes back and Pettit was 19-34.


So yeah, Russell didn't really have an effect on Pettit.
In fact, Pettit played much much better when Russell was there.

So really can we say it was Russell who limited Pettit when Pettit only played bad when Russell didn't play?


Overall for Pettit when Russell played:

11-22
8-20
10-23
19-34

48%

Games in which Russell missed Pettit was:

3-17
7-21

26%


So yeah, the C's held down Pettit when Russell was gone. So maybe Russell gets too much credit for his defense than he should especially when you consider Pettit was the Center as well.

Also he led in PER 4x in a row.

Has 2 league MVP's as well.

Vote: Pettit
Nominate: Isiah

[Laimbeer]

How is Nash getting nominations over Stock, Kidd, Isiah, and even Payton? He didn't even become an elite player until 2005, and played in an extremely PG friendly system. He's non-existent on the defensive side of the court, and the only one of the group to never even have made the FInals.

Tend to agree, and the next logical step is giving the nod to the guy who has two titles as the guy while the others have none.

[Gongxi]

No one- except for JordansBulls- has been as blatant and obvious about it as you've been. How about you rate players on how they play, not whether or not they and 11 other dudes coached by another dude, all hired by another dude, made it to the Finals? This really isn't that hard.

Yeh, I already have been rating players by how they play. BUT basketball is a team sport, so how a player impacts that team's success is a factor too.

It's hard enough to rate players, how are you going to rate the rest of their teams, and the competition, and then figure out what the players role in it was? It's nonsensical; just rate them based upon how they played.