Political Roundtable/Black hole of doom Part Deux

[Zonkerbl]

Ugh. I can only imagine the "market efficiency" that would ensue if MD, VA, and DC all separately decided what highway projects to develop.

Who said anything about "separately"? There's no reason states can't work together on projects. They can work together on regulation too, like how building codes are handled.

It's amazing how this attitude that Washington must be in control permeates everything we do. It's as if the country didn't function prior to FDR.

Oh, yeah, because MD, DC, and VA have such a LONG history of successfully cooperating on infrastructure projects.

[Cramer]

Do you consider Nancy Pelosi to be filled with hate? What about Joe Biden, who just called the Tea Party terrorists?

Biden denies calling Repubs "terrorists" and there's no proof that he did. I understand that Biden might have said that the Tea Party held the country (and the political process) "hostage," which many people, including myself, think is true.

So, Obama was attempting to hold the country hostage when he voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006?

Got it.

[nate33]

Do you consider Nancy Pelosi to be filled with hate? What about Joe Biden, who just called the Tea Party terrorists?

Biden denies calling Repubs "terrorists" and there's no proof that he did. I understand that Biden might have said that the Tea Party held the country (and the political process) "hostage," which many people, including myself, think is true.

So, Obama was attempting to hold the country hostage when he voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006?

Got it.

Beautiful example, Cramer. I don't recall any outcry from the media at the time. That's because Obama was fighting for a noble cause: the opposition of the Republican agenda. There's never any outcry when that happens.

Basically, the media approves of all Democrat politicians and any "moderate" Republican who gets ground down by the political machine in Washington and becomes a Rino - a statist.

Any non-establishment conservative, or any stalwart ideological conservative who consistently opposes the expansion of government is either an obstructionist, an immature neophyte, a bigot, a homophobe, or someone who wants to kill the old and the poor. There are no noble opposers of big government. Every single one of them has a sinister motive.

[Zonkerbl]

So Obama by himself making a completely symbolic statement is equivalent to the Tea Partiers, who had the power and the desire to deliberately sabotage the U.S. economy? Many of whom are mad now because they didn't force the U.S. into a default?

Weak, guys. Just admit you're wrong and be done with it.

[Cramer]

And not only voted against it, made a pretty bold statement about leadership at the time.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

And I guess when Obama couldn't find the time to vote on two other times, well he'd just stopped giving a ****.

[hands11]

Rope a Dope

Obama had the Tea Party to deal with since the election.
Reid set this up with the debt limit issue.
They got exposed.
The Tea Party will be no friend of the old guard R party. They will pull them and push to replace them.

Go to sleep with Dogs...

We will see how this plays out. I think Obama played his hand well. The got the debt raised past the election. He got cuts but not to much in the next two years which is good. He has the commission set up and we have budget extension coming up in a month. The Tea Party did not get their crappy version on a budget amendment.

There are more rounds on the schedule.

Taxes, jobs, investment, infrastructure will all be front and center.

Rope a Dope. We will see how this ends. This fight is not over yet.

[hands11]

One more important point.

Jeffrey Imelt, CEO of General Electric, is Obama's job's Czar. GE paid zero corporate income taxes last year even though they made billions in profit. They just announced they are moving their most profitable division to China. Why would they do this? They claim it is to be closer to the customer. In reality they want to flee the union BS (i.e. the financing arm of the Democratic party."

People wonder why manufacturing has declined in the US. Wake up. No one in their right mind would locate here except in Republican controlled right-to-work states. The northeast and upper midwest are hemmorging jobs.

Right, were the well water is fracked.

Maryland is a right to work state you know.

Look. It is a world economy now. At this level has never happened before. Business have no loyalty to the US because the code allows them not to and since they destroyed the middle class, demand is lower here making it a less attractive market. And with their puppet R in power through the Bush years, they have collected the money already. The bank has already been robbed. Hard to take it from them now. All you can do is make it more profitable for companies loyal to this country vs those who are not. Those policies will not come from the R party. But who cares. They are already done.

It is the Dems against the Tea Party now. Old guard R have 1 year left then they are officially done.

[hands11]

One more point- Since when does exercising your vote as an elected representative of congress equate to holding people hostage or being a terrorist. For God's sake the thought of it is absurd yet the media and some people on this board promote it.

This is a democracy. People elect their reps. If you don't like the way they vote then try to elect others but don't pretend your are being held hostage.

When you hold the country and the economy hostage by saying, even though we are in minority control of the three branches and minority control of our party, we are going to hold a gun against the countries head unless we get what we want.

When you do something that no house has ever done before even when they hatted the guts out of the party in power. NO PARTY HAS DONE THIS.

Shutting down the government is immature enough. Saying you won't pay the bills already passed.... that is childish and not worthy of someone who is elected to government.

But they can do what they want once you are there. We will see what the people thing about it in the longer term.

But I am totally fine with this. I would gladly give up some short term gains for long term gains.

[hands11]

Erm, because they were threatening to default, thereby destroying the economy. Negotiating by threatening to blow something up is extortion. Give me some examples of any other U.S. political group, Republican or Democrat, that has ever done that. You'd probably have to go back to the Civil War.

Like I say, I respect the Tea Partier's for extracting an enormous change in our paralyzed political system despite being on the wrong side of political opinion and only having control over one sixth of the government. But it was extortion.

I guess what it says is the system is so paralyzed that only intimidation works now. Sad.

But why do you believe it was the Tea Party that was "extorting". The Democrats wouldn't agree to Cut Cap and Balance, which resulted in this long standoff in the first place. Why isn't it them who were "holding the country hostage" because of their radical beliefs?

The fact that you don't know says a lot.

[hands11]

Yeah, the Tea Partyers were able to get what they wanted not because the public was on their side but despite of that.

Holding firm on a position because that's what people want is not extortion. Threatening to blow up the economy to get what you want even though no one else wants it -- that's extortion.

I mean I agree with you Nate, I don't think what the Tea Partiers did is a terrible thing. But let's call a spade a spade. The majority of the American people did not want what is in this bill. Now I agree with you because the majority of the American people are blind to the fact that the status quo will lead to, at the very least, bankruptcy of the Social Security system, so they are wrong. Grabbing a hold of the U.S. public's leash and giving it a good hard reality yank is a very good thing. But... they did use borderline terrorist tactics to do it. And frankly at this point I'm not sure there's any other way to fix the things that are wrong with this country.

Where's MLK Jr when you need him?

They were not doing what the people want. Just wait. If you haven;t now, you will.

[hands11]

Fishercob, your perception that the Tea Party is somehow more "angry" than any other faction is another manifestation of media bias. Why is the Tea Party considered to be more angry than the legion of angry Democrats? Nancy Pelosi said Republicans want to starve the elderly. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz says the GOP budget is a “death trap” for seniors. jesse Jackson said the budget fight is a "Civil War fight".

Maybe because they bring guns to political events. That would be one obvious reason.

[hands11]

I can't honestly say I've come into direct contact with a great deal of tea party people so my perception is almost necessarily colored by the media. On the other hand I have no problems whatsoever with a balanced budget amendment.

In what form ?

Do you not have a problem with a amendment to the Constitution that changes the way the house works only in one direction ? That they can cut whatever they want but in balancing the budget they can have no revenue policies.

How did Clinton's budget do it without a Constitution amendment ?

The amendment the Tea Party wants passed will change a majority vote to a 2/3 majority for any raise in taxes by both the House and the Senate.

It is the 2/3 majority filibuster that has ended debate in the Senate as it is. That is where the smarter more experience people used to have an honest debate.

What we are left with right now is the children running the household. Is that how your house runs ? Do your kids tell you that unless you, mom and most the kids are on board that you can't do something ?

Dow down 260 today. Wonder why ?

1937. Research it.

[hands11]

Why am I not entitled to my own perceptions, nate? Why must it be "media bias?" And which media? I don't watch the nightly news. I read pieces of the WP and WSJ, but not in great detail or with religious regularity. A lot of the video footage I see comes from youtube or twitter.

When did I say you werent entitled to your perception? Im saying i disagree with your perception and suspect that when a reasonable person such as yourself believes that the Tea Party is filled with hate that there is media bias at work.

Do you consider Nancy Pelosi to be filled with hate? What about Joe Biden, who just called the Tea Party terrorists

Media Bias ? Oh stop. The only bias the media has to to hammer on or cover whatever they can make look like the world is ending. Stop with the Rush talking points.

[hands11]

Gotta say... Dems got their butts kicked but good. Pretty sad. If I'm a big time contributor to the Dems I'm calling all my democratic friends up and asking "What the hell just happened? Remind me why I'm supporting you again?"

Why do people keep saying the Repubs won and the Dems lost? There are no cut in the first two years of this budget (which is all that matters because future Congresses cant be bound by the current Congress) so its just a status quo budget. The Repubs consented to allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire. So basically, we have higher taxes and no reduction in spending. Looks like a dream scenario for Dems.

That is a lot closer to what I am see.

So what is next. We have a Sept dead line. Anyone thing we get a threat of government shut down. How do you think the people are going to be feeling with the Tea Party after that ?

Then you have Nov. Another fight. More of a change to explain your position and for those who said it doesn't matter who you elect they are the same, they will see more and more that is not true.

Then the election year starts in January.

I hardly see how Obama had it handed to him. I think he is set up rather nicely. The (r) nor the Tea Party still don't have someone who measures up to Obama. The fact that most the media is missing this is a good since that it is actually true. The media are lagers for the most part because they would rather cover a story that the sky is falling. Two inches of snow is 24x7 news.

Mitt or Perry. Bring it on.

[hands11]

I'm glad we resolved that debt ceiling crisis. With that behind us, it should be smooth sailing from here on out:

Any what do you think it would look like if the play was.

End the tax loop holes. End the tax spending for oil, etc.
Implement a ATF for business. You can only write off so much. Min 15% rate for all business.
End the Bush tax spending on the top 2% in 2012.
Reform America Act by spending on infrastructure bridges. Unemployed get first dibs.
2-3 Trillion in cuts that start in 2 year and are triggered by a GDP of 2.8 %. Everything on the table.
End the middle class tax cuts in 2 years
500 billion invested in green energy. Set a mark for federal government building to be running on green by "?" year. Hell, Kohls can do it. Why not our government.
Same for government vehicles. This is the power of the government to move markets. They just chance what they spend on and that helps establish the markets for the commercial side.
Extend the payroll taxes through 2013

Had that been the plan, markets would have been stable if not increasing.

[montestewart]

Maryland is a right to work state you know.

I didn't know that. Neither did Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-w ... -work_laws
or the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

[hands11]

So Obama by himself making a completely symbolic statement is equivalent to the Tea Partiers, who had the power and the desire to deliberately sabotage the U.S. economy? Many of whom are mad now because they didn't force the U.S. into a default?

Weak, guys. Just admit you're wrong and be done with it.

As was his debt ceiling vote in the past. Just like politicians do every vote.

That is what they do. They count votes. Once passes, others are given a green like to vote against it.

Why ? Because it helps them locally. That is politics.

But they only do it once they know the important bills will pass.

[hands11]

And not only voted against it, made a pretty bold statement about leadership at the time.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

And I guess when Obama couldn't find the time to vote on two other times, well he'd just stopped giving a ****.

His bold statement of leadership is still true.
It is an abomination that Bush and 6 year of R control distressed this economy and our world reputation when they were handed a wet dream.

It was a failure of leadership and still is.

[hands11]

Maryland is a right to work state you know.

I didn't know that. Neither did Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-w ... -work_laws
or the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

Maybe I don't fully understand all that comes with that label.

I guess it included Unions. But for private industry, you can fire without cause. As long as it isn't because of age, sex, etc.

At least that is my understanding.

[hands11]

McConnell says he doesn't think Social Security need trimmed to twenty years. Well played Mitch.

Make it a huge issue will the debt ceiling at gun point. Now that it is over, cover your rss right away by trying to pull your snipers off the fence. I tell you. The party has just begun. The story is going to continue to be the Tea Party and the Republicans establishment fighting for control of that party more then it will be the Dems dealing with liberal and progressives.

Great Bill Maher 222-episode Anyone that has HBO should watch this.

They had the Tea Party chops guy was on and some hot blonde conservative and Elliot Spitzer. Who doesn't love a conservative hottie. I think this is the only reason this party has legs

http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill- ... stars.html

http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill-maher/index.html

http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill- ... EhAGCyFzg=


I will say it again. I think the Tea Party values are more in line with Progressive Dems then with Republicans. They just don't realize it yet. Dems would love to clean up the tax code. Should be interesting to see what become of them as they become more politically mature and realize all government isn't bad and that trick down doesn't work.