Wilt vs Shaq

[turk3d]

Kareem although not physically as strong as most of your better defensive Centers, was extremely long and at 7'2 (yes he was really 7'2, he always tried to downplay his size), not sure what his wingspan was but it must have been quite high he could bother most Centers by virtue of his length.

He was fairly agile and very quick (due to his relatively light frame) and of course became pretty cagey during his later years and was able to outmaneuver most guys who were strong than he was. So he really was no pushover (although not the greatest) defensively. He could give Shaq trouble (as he gave Wilt) just due to his length. Sane reason that Shaq had difficulty with Yao at times although Yao was not as quick on his feet as Kareem was.

[jaypo]

Kareem although not physically as strong as most of your better defensive Centers, was extremely long and at 7'2 (yes he was really 7'2, he always tried to downplay his size), not sure what his wingspan was but it must have been quite high he could bother most Centers by virtue of his length.

He was fairly agile and very quick (due to his relatively light frame) and of course became pretty cagey during his later years and was able to outmaneuver most guys who were strong than he was. So he really was no pushover (although not the greatest) defensively. He could give Shaq trouble (as he gave Wilt) just due to his length. Sane reason that Shaq had difficulty with Yao at times although Yao was not as quick on his feet as Kareem was.

The reason Yao gave Shaq "trouble" is that Shaq was in his 12th season and Yao was 7'6 and over 300 lbs! And Shaq was still able to impose his will on Yao at times.

Look, I think KAJ is #2 all time. But to think he'd stop Shaq is a bold statement. Nobody could. The rules were changed to stop him. The same as Wilt. People claim that "holding" him to 30 pts was stopping him. You can't. Some have done better, but nobody could stop him.

PS- Duncan never stopped Shaq. Duncan played PF, not center vs Shaq.

[turk3d]

Turk- are you seriously gonna compare someone that had zero offensive responsibility to a player that was relied on to be the best scorer, rebounder, and defensive anchor on his team night after night? Don't you think that if Shaq's only role was to rebound, he could have pulled down 3 more than he did? Shaq wasn't able to just sit at the rim and wait for misses either because the offenses ran THRU him. So most of the time, he was the one initiating the plays. It's different when you just have to sit and wait for the boards.

Yes. Wilt had all those responsibilities and more (even had to set up others with his passes). Wilt averaged 30 ppg and almost 23 rpg in his career and that's who we're comparing him against aren't we. But of course you (and others unfortunately) want to diminish Wilt's accomplishments with advanced stats. TD averaged 11.4 rpg (and over 20 ppg). Olajuwan, 21.8 and 11.1. I won't list any of the old timers because I know you will discount them.

Look at it from this perspective- compare Shaq's rebounding average for his career vs. Dwight's. In real numbers, it's not that much of a difference. And that includes about 6 years of over the hill Shaq! Look at the numbers in his prime. And remember how much Shaq had to do for his teams to succeed.

As far as Dwight's concerned, Dwight right now is a better rebounder (probably only because he's more focused on it) but he's certainly not as good a scorer at this point than Shaq (not as polished) and definitely not a better player than Shaq. But Dwight's no Wilt either.

I'm pretty sure that if Shaq were a 4th option on offense, and his ONLY role was to rebound or defend, he would have been one of the GOAT at that task. But he was expected (and needed) to be the anchor of the offense and defense and rebound. For fun, why don't we compare Shaq's numbers overall with his peers and the results they achieved those years. And another point- Shaq had more consecutive 25 pt and 10 plus rebound seasons than KAJ. Actually, than anybody. So tell me how poor of a rebounder he was!

Again, that's not who he's being compared against. And still, I maintain that Shaq could have and should have been a much better rebound than he was throughout his career and that is why although great (one of the best ever for sure) I do not attribute to him the greatness that many want to attribute to him, especially those who did not have the benefit of being able to watch some of the greats to which he is constantly being compared to.

Great, top 50, one of the best Centers ever? Yes, absolutely. The best of his time? Probably but the best ever? Absolutely not imo.

[turk3d]

Kareem although not physically as strong as most of your better defensive Centers, was extremely long and at 7'2 (yes he was really 7'2, he always tried to downplay his size), not sure what his wingspan was but it must have been quite high he could bother most Centers by virtue of his length.

He was fairly agile and very quick (due to his relatively light frame) and of course became pretty cagey during his later years and was able to outmaneuver most guys who were strong than he was. So he really was no pushover (although not the greatest) defensively. He could give Shaq trouble (as he gave Wilt) just due to his length. Sane reason that Shaq had difficulty with Yao at times although Yao was not as quick on his feet as Kareem was.

The reason Yao gave Shaq "trouble" is that Shaq was in his 12th season and Yao was 7'6 and over 300 lbs! And Shaq was still able to impose his will on Yao at times.

Look, I think KAJ is #2 all time. But to think he'd stop Shaq is a bold statement. Nobody could. The rules were changed to stop him. The same as Wilt. People claim that "holding" him to 30 pts was stopping him. You can't. Some have done better, but nobody could stop him.

PS- Duncan never stopped Shaq. Duncan played PF, not center vs Shaq.

I didn't say that Kareem would stop him, just that I think he could give him some trouble due to his length (which your taller Centers have been able to do throughout his career. It's just that there weren't too many guys who were taller than him that he had to face. Even Z gave him some trouble from time to time (didn't outplay him but some games was able to do ok it seems).

[Ryoga Hibiki]

So Ho Grant in 95 was better defensively than people like Oakley and Rodman? Right. How old were you during those 95 Finals? Serious question.

Arguably yes. He was a 2nd All Defence team, don't see what's so crazy about such statement.
(I was 17, but I admit that I started watching more closely the NBA only a few years before, when Kukoc joined)

Actually, Deke was listed at 7'2" and KAK at 7' 1"1/2. So technically, he was shorter. But regardless, saying KAJ was equal to Deke defensively is like saying Deke was equal to KAJ offensively! Shaq wasn't as good defensively as Deke, but it didn't really matter. Deke wasn't carrying the responsibility that Shaq was. He was the 1st option on offense and the team leader. And it showed as he abused the DPOY for 35 and 15 in the entire series!

you keep ignoring the fact that Mutombo was 35, was keeping Shaq in single covergae (like Hakeem did in the finals) and had the best series of his career on offence.
And, while I haven't seen much of Alcindor in his phisical prime, all I've read about him don't suggest at all that he was such a lousy defender to justify a comparison with Mutombo's offence. He's been All Defence 1st or 2nd team almost every year, has been 4 times the NBA leader in blocked shots and I've always heard him described as a great defender, even if Joey's father thinks he doesn't "work hard enough on defence".

Next, of course Shaq got better and those 2 got worse with age. But you chose the years, and I fileld in the gaps. The closest thing we get to a prime vs prime matchup was about year 1997. And you still came in with the same baseless argument. Drob in 97 was still in his prime. Akeem in 95 was at his absolute peak. Shaq in 95 was in his 3rd year, and Shaq in 97 was in his 5th. Yet Shaq showed the ability to outplay both of them. And from those points, the h2h matchups heavily favor Shaq even in those players STILL GOOD YEARS.

96-97 was lost due to injuries, in 97-98 Robinson's ppg dropped to 21.6, he was already 32 but still managed to average 25/12/5 vs Shaq that year.

Anyway, can we consider 03/04 season as the standard to compare Shaq to Yao as well? Isn't that the closest thing to prime vs prime?

[jaypo]

Okay. The thing I have the problem with is something you touched on in your post. You penalize Shaq for his lack of rebounding. But let's look at the numbers: Shaq over his 19 year career averaged 10.9 rpg. Let's look at some others:

Rodman- 13.1
Howard- 12.9
Ben Wallace- 11.8
Duncan- 11.4
KAJ- 11.2
Akeem- 11.1
Drob- 10.6

So you have 3 rebounding specialists (2 of which had ZERO offensive responsibilities), and yet, the biggest gap between them and Shaq is 2.20 rpg. So even the best rebounder out of all of these HOFers, a man who was responsible for ONLY rebounding and defending pulled down a whopping 2 more rebounds per game than Shaq. So let me ask you this- was Rodman's 2 additional rebounds more important than the 17.3 point per game gap in their scoring? Do you think that if Rodman had to score even just 10 more points per game than he did, his rebounding would remain the same? Do you see what I'm getting at? Kareem- he and Shaq averaged the exact same number of ppg and KAJ pulled down a huge .3 of 1 rebound more than Shaq. Yet, he's never criticized for it. Akeem- .2 of 1 rebound more. Drob- .3 of 1 rebound less. See the point? If you're gonna criticize Shaq for not pulling down enough boards, give the same criticizm to those others. Because I don't see a case to be made for Kareem being a better rebounder than Shaq if he only pulls down .3 of 1 board more than Shaq does. And when the best rebounder of the modern era (Rodman) only pulls down 2.2 more boards per game while averaging 17 points per game less, that tells the whole story right there.

As far as old time players, I try not to get into that. But look at the big picture. If players like KAJ, DRob, Shaq, Duncan, Rodman, Wallace, and Dwight, who are arguably the best rebounders of their era, can pull down 13.1 boards MAX, I'd say there was some evidence to show that the rebounding stats were a bit skewed in the "Old Time". Or do you think that Wilt would be able to score 40 and 20 in today's game?

[jaypo]

Good "Airplane" reference!!!

[doctorfunk]

you keep ignoring the fact that Mutombo was 35, was keeping Shaq in single covergae (like Hakeem did in the finals) and had the best series of his career on offence.

You keep ignoring the fact he was leagues best man2man defender at that position
and acquired ESPECIALLY to deal with Shaq. I watched playoffs that year and say what you want Deke was great that year, he gave it all in finals. Fact he was on 76ers was the reason he had to score more and he did pretty good. Mutombo had good series but Shaq had a great one, cmon 33-16-5 + 4 blk per game that's amazing vs a defender like Mutombo. Not to mention he kept Deke, Geiger and McCullough in constant foul trouble.

And plz he wasn't doubled in 2001 finals :S ? He was lol!

[Dr Positivity]

Shaq

To steal a football analogy from Michael Lombardi, Wilt was the restaurant with 50 menu items, Shaq was the restaurant with 10. Shaq's restauarant having less leads to more effective plates because every one can be perfect, while Wilt's restaurant has to practice making so many different plates that none of them are at the level of Shaq's restauarant

Essentially, Wilt could do more things, but it led him to overthink it and change his game too often - and his team's couldn't perfect playing around him. Shaq had less moves but he was supremely good and confident and unstoppable at all of them. Simplicity is why Shaq was more succesful than Wilt

[jaypo]

Another football analogy- when you have a team that has an unstoppable running game, you keep pounding the ball up the gut. You don't get flashy if you don't have to. Wilt's problem was that he cared about the fact that critics said he couldn't do this or that. Then he went work on it, and showed them he could. Shaq got the same criticizm, and his answer "I'm a back to the basket center." Why perfect a 15 ft jump shot when you're #2 all time in fg% from shooting constantly within 10 feet? That's the attitude that made Shaq a better basketball player. He didn't care what people thought about him because of what he could do individually. He let the success he achieved do the talking by using the attributes he had.

[jaypo]

you keep ignoring the fact that Mutombo was 35, was keeping Shaq in single covergae (like Hakeem did in the finals) and had the best series of his career on offence.

You keep ignoring the fact he was leagues best man2man defender at that position
and acquired ESPECIALLY to deal with Shaq. I watched playoffs that year and say what you want Deke was great that year, he gave it all in finals. Fact he was on 76ers was the reason he had to score more and he did pretty good. Mutombo had good series but Shaq had a great one, cmon 33-16-5 + 4 blk per game that's amazing vs a defender like Mutombo. Not to mention he kept Deke, Geiger and McCullough in constant foul trouble.

And plz he wasn't doubled in 2001 finals :S ? He was lol!

Also, by saying that Akeem in 95 singled covered Shaq shows me that you didn't watch that series! Shaq was consistently doubled. The Magic chose to single Akeem mainly.

[OldSchoolNBA]

And the fact that you say Orlando single covered Hakeem shows you didn't watch the series, either.

[34Dayz]

The Shaq haters are pathetic as usual.

Why is it a knock on Shaq that in his third year he was only able to play "on par" with Peak Hakeem.

It was clear that DRob was never in Shaqs league, although he was only slightly outplayed by Oneal in the early 90's in the RS he was still outplayed and again this is Prime DRob vs Young Shaq not Prime Shaq. The fact that DRob wilts in the post season while Shaq raises his game plus the fact that Young Shaq was able to play on par with Peak Hakeem and outplay him at times while Prime DRob got destroyed is the nail in the coffin for that comparison (sorry Shaq haters)

I'd love to see 3rd year Hakeem or 3rd year DRob try to play on par with 00 Shaq.

The truth of the matter is the best defensive centers of this entire Era were completely helpless to stop Young or Prime Shaq and were often held to low shooting %'s when matched up against him.

00 Shaq is the GOAT due to him being the greatest and most unstoppable offensive force the NBA has ever seen combined with a Defensive impact perhaps only matched by Peak Hakeem.

00 Shaq was a DPOY level defender his defense was overshadowed by how incredibly dominant he was offensively, defensively I would only say Peak Hakeem has an argument for being better.

If Peak Hakeem and DPOY Wallace + Mutombo couldnt even slow down Shaq you think Skin and Bones Jabbar is gonna do anything to him? Jabbar would get destroyed down low by 00 Shaq I highly doubt he would even try to defend him, on the other hand I can see Jabbar scoring plenty of Shaq with his Skyhook but would still get thoroughly outscored because Shaq had the size/length/ and strength to push him out far from the basket and atleast make his shot slightly less effecient.

Wilt wouldn't be able to handle shaqs strength and even if he could he is too mentally weak to stand up to Shaq who is confident and cocky in his abilities and would use this to his advantage and abuse Wilt as much as possible. I think Wilt physically is the only one who could possibly have a chance at slowing him down but he just doesnt have the mental toughness to do it, while he Wilts in the post season Shaq raises his game 10fold.

Shaq is the Greatest Center of All-Time.

[doctorfunk]

00 Shaq was a DPOY level defender his defense was overshadowed by how incredibly dominant he was offensively, defensively I would only say Peak Hakeem has an argument for being better.

I agree with most of your post, however many players have that argument, and Hakeem was clearly better defender. Still Shaq was great defender, agreed.

[34Dayz]

I think Prime Hakeem was probably better as an overall defender due to him being an "A" in every defensive catergory.

Meanwhile I consider Prime Shaq to be basically an "A+ in every category except for maybe PNR/Help defense where he might be a B+ or slightly above average for his position.

When it came to shot blocking, post defense, M2M Defense, lane intimidation etc.. I dont think many in the history of the league were better then 00 Oneal.

He was so big and muscular that season, he took up so much space under the basket, and yet je still retained his speed, explosiveness, and hops.

[Dipper 13]

he is too mentally weak to stand up to Shaq

What's sad is that numerous fans honestly believe this crap.

[Dipper 13]

In 1982, when he was 45 and Philadelphia 76er owner Harold Katz was hot after him, the Houston Chronicle's George White asked Elvin Hayes if Chamberlain could still play. "Some things about Wilt, you never forgot," Hayes said. "He was such an awesome physical specimen. To go up under Wilt Chamberlain, to be down there and look up at him when he's towering up over you waiting to dunk, was a terrifying picture. To see him poised up there, knowing he was about to sweep down with that big jam . . . that must be the most frightening sight in sports. The ball goes shooting through the net and you better have your body covered up because he could really hurt someone. I was scared. Everyone was scared when he got that look in his eye, that don't-try-to-stop-this look that he got when he really wanted it. . . . "I think Russell realized there was no way he could have stopped Wilt if he had been fully intent on making it a two-man game. No one who ever put on a uniform could have done it. When I played him, I kept this foremost in my mind: Above all, don't make him mad. Don't embarrass him. You wanted to keep him quiet as long as possible."



"When challenged, Wilt could do almost anything he wanted. In 1961 a new star named Walt Bellamy came into the league. Bellamy was 6-foot-10, and was scoring 30 points a game. First time they played against each other, they met at half court. Bellamy said, 'Hello, Mr. Chamberlain. I'm Walter Bellamy.' Chamberlain reached for Bellamy's hand and said, 'Hello, Walter. You won't get a shot off in the first half.' Wilt then blocked Bellamy's first nine shots. At the start of the second half Wilt said to Bellamy, 'Okay, Walter. Now you can play.'"



Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently.

[Dipper 13]

Lexington Herald-Leader (KY) - October 15, 1999

WILT WAS AT ANOTHER LEVEL, SAYS EX-RIVAL

LOUISVILLE - At 6-foot -8 and around 230 pounds in his prime, Bud Olsen was hefty enough to compete against most of the NBA centers of the 1960s. But Wilt Chamberlain was a different proposition. "Until Wilt," Olsen said, "I'd never been around a guy who made me feel inferior." Now a semi-retired businessman, Olsen was at the theater Tuesday night when he heard that Chamberlain, 63, had died in Los Angeles. The news shook him up because, he said, "you just don't expect certain people to die, especially a legend like him." After graduating from Louisville in 1962, Olsen spent seven years knocking around the NBA. He played on the Cincinnati Royals with Oscar Robertson and,, for a short time, on the Boston Celtics with Bill Russell. But nobody impressed him as much as Chamberlain, the 7-1, 275-pound center who averaged more than 30 points and 22 rebounds during his 14-year career.

As Olsen tells it, Chamberlain was more than just big and strong. "Baseline to baseline," Olsen said, "nobody in the NBA was faster than him. He was just an incredible athlete. He had big thighs and his body was just chiseled, except for his shins and calves. They were so skinny he wore kneepads. I figured if he ever came after me, my only defense would be kicking him in the shins."

Olsen feared that such an altercation might happen in 1966-67, the season Chamberlain led the Philadelphia 76ers to a 68-13 regular-season record and the NBA title. At the time, Olsen was a backup center for the San Francisco Warriors. "I was sent into the game to foul Wilt," Olsen said. "He had his right hand bandaged up, but he still could windmill the ball with one hand so that it was just impossible to reach it. I'm chopping him the best I can and Earl Strom, who was refereeing, won't call a foul."

After the game I know Wilt's upset with me because I just butchered him. I saw him outside the locker room and he said, `Bud, if you do that tomorrow night, I'll kill you.' So I did the smart thing. I went outside. I scored 24, the most I ever got on him."

Olsen thinks that 76ers team was the best he ever played against, and that includes several of the 11 NBA championship teams the Celtics produced during Russell's 13-year career. Besides Chamberlain, who averaged 24.1 points and 24.2 rebounds that season, the 76ers had Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Wally Jones, Lucious Jackson and Matt Goukas. They trounced the Celtics, four games to one, in the Eastern Division finals and then whipped Olsen's Warriors, whose stars were Rick Barry & Nate Thurmond.




Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA - Terry Pluto

[34Dayz]

@ Dipper : I am a Fan of Wilt but why do you deny that he often played worse in the PS then in the RS and was mentally intimidated and outplayed at times by Centers that he should have been dominating.. I mean do you really think a 1 legged Willis Reed is gonna intimidate or outplay Shaq?

[nolunch]

In 60's, 6'6 Elgin Baylor averaged 19 rebs per game in one season. How are we surprised that 7'1 Wilt averaging 22+ rebs per game ??