Building a franchise: Deron Williams or Derrick Rose

[Trader_Joe]

Building a franchise Rose.
He's younger and you can build the pieces around him, which seems to be the premise.

However, if I had the pieces already in place to win, and that consisted mostly of players who would thrive off a PG creating in their shots, I take Deron.

Kind of like Nash, I would put Deron on most of the better teams in the league and expect a championship easier than with Rose. But I would put Rose of most of the mediocre and lesser teams in the league and build those teams around Rose.

[kasino]

Rose is just more dynamic of a player while I wuld usually like the pass firt style og pg

[JordansBulls]

Rose is better overall, and more of a cornerstone for a title team. Also not sure on Deron's personality with the coaching staff. Wouldn't want him back talking my coaches.

Based on what? He scores a little more shooting at a worse volume, is inferior to Deron everywhere else.

One finished as the highest 9th in MVP voting in the same league that one finished with the MVP trophy and the #1 seed. Not only that but Deron had the same guys Rose had and the highest he finished was a 4th seed and never had HCA in the 1st round.

[bbms]

D-Will easily.

[JordansBulls]

D-Will easily.

Prove it

[therealbig3]

I'll take Williams.

You have an extremely efficient 18-20 ppg scorer in Williams, vs a kind of efficient 25 ppg scorer in Rose.

Outside of that, they seem to be about even defensively...people have very different opinions regarding Williams's defense, but when I watch him play, he's very quick, and he can stay in front of pretty much anybody, but he's also very big and strong, so you can't abuse him on the block. He's a pretty good defender. Having said that, you can say the same thing about Rose, and he's definitely improved a lot recently.

But in terms of running an offense and setting up teammates, it's no contest, Williams is better.

[RichardsRival3]

Rose, better defender better scorer, younger more athletic.

[therealbig3]

Rose, better defender better scorer, younger more athletic.

Both of those are arguable. In fact, Williams has shown the ability to volume score with great efficiency. He's also got a superior skill set to Rose, so I think Williams might actually be a better scorer.

Rose is younger right now, but building a franchise, I get Williams as a 21-year old vs Rose as a 20-year old. Not really a big deal. And Rose is more athletic, but honestly, in terms of physical abilities, I think Williams gets overlooked a lot when guys like Paul and Rose are mentioned...Williams is one of the quickest players in the league, while being one of the biggest and strongest PGs in the league.

Overall, I think this is Williams, kinda easily actually, and I don't think it's all that fair to Rose. Honestly, we don't know how good Rose is going to be. It was arguable if he was better in 2011, and that was Rose's best season yet, while Williams has had a couple of seasons, at least, better than 2011. We know what Williams is capable of, and we know he's an elite offensive PG, who can run an offense better than Rose can as of right now. We don't know the best Rose is capable of, so I don't think you can pick against Deron Williams, who's more proven as a franchise player.

[HeatRing2012]

Rose is better overall, and more of a cornerstone for a title team. Also not sure on Deron's personality with the coaching staff. Wouldn't want him back talking my coaches.

Based on what? He scores a little more shooting at a worse volume, is inferior to Deron everywhere else.

One finished as the highest 9th in MVP voting in the same league that one finished with the MVP trophy and the #1 seed. Not only that but Deron had the same guys Rose had and the highest he finished was a 4th seed and never had HCA in the 1st round.

are we talking about the same MVP voting which is based on writers voting for their favorite player?

btw. "the same guys":
Korver
- with Deron: 9 ppg high(was injured 2010), 2.1-3.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 49% FG, 54% 3p,
- with Rose: 8.3 ppg, 1.8 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 43% FG, 42% 3p (also lower steals, lower blocks than in Utah)

result: Korver was worse in every categorie(lower PER too) despite playing more minutes in Chicago (!). especially his shooting suffered because Deron created so many easy open looks for him.


Boozer
- with Deron: 20 ppg, 11.2 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 56% FG
- with Rose: 18 ppg, 9.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 51% FG

result: Deron made his teammates significantly better than Rose could in every category as well

----

about the playoff results, well I like Rose too. but come on...
Deron has to battle through the strong west, the same conference that provided the winner of the NBA finals in 10 out of the last 13 years. he has to get past teams like the Lakers, Mavs and Spurs every year.
all West playoff teams are something like 50+ win teams.
Rose/Chicago has the luck of facing scrub below .500 teams like Indiana in the first round (37-45) and he struggeled against Collison there (!). look how stacked the west is: the southwest division is so strong, EVERY team in there is above +.500.
A team of the level of Indiana would be the 12th or 13th seed in the West at best.

judging Rose more highly because he got past the lowly Pacers and the Hawks (lol) is comical

[chefy]

Close, I think Drose would surpass Derron someday. But right now Dwill IMO is still the better player.

[JordansBulls]

are we talking about the same MVP voting which is based on writers voting for their favorite player?

btw. "the same guys":
Korver
- with Deron: 9 ppg high(was injured 2010), 2.1-3.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 49% FG, 54% 3p,
- with Rose: 8.3 ppg, 1.8 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 43% FG, 42% 3p (also lower steals, lower blocks than in Utah)

result: Korver was worse in every categorie(lower PER too) despite playing more minutes in Chicago (!). especially his shooting suffered because Deron created so many easy open looks for him.


Boozer
- with Deron: 20 ppg, 11.2 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 56% FG
- with Rose: 18 ppg, 9.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 51% FG

result: Deron made his teammates significantly better than Rose could in every category as well

----

about the playoff results, well I like Rose too. but come on...
Deron has to battle through the strong west, the same conference that provided the winner of the NBA finals in 10 out of the last 13 years. he has to get past teams like the Lakers, Mavs and Spurs every year.
all West playoff teams are something like 50+ win teams.
Rose/Chicago has the luck of facing scrub below .500 teams like Indiana in the first round (37-45) and he struggeled against Collison there (!). look how stacked the west is: the southwest division is so strong, EVERY team in there is above +.500.
A team of the level of Indiana would be the 12th or 13th seed in the West at best.

judging Rose more highly because he got past the lowly Pacers and the Hawks (lol) is comical

Boozer was the allstar on the Jazz not Deron initially. Boozer made it in 2007 and 2008 while Deron didn't make it till 2010.

[Jvaughn]

Rose has the all important intangibles and effect on teammates. Him.

If by intangibles, you mean having the best rebounding and defensive cast in the league, sure.

Dude, give it a break. We get it. You hate Rose, and you think Nash is the GOAT. Stop bringing the same tired argument out in every "Player A" VS Rose thread. Paul and Jennings both had top defensive teams, but both teams were mediocre to terrible. That argument doesn't hold any water.

[bbms]

D-Will easily.

Prove it

The only thing Rose brings me that is better than D-Will is volume scoring, rebounding and slashing.

Deron gives me pick and roll plays and makes my bigmen look better, he'd make Noah and Boozer an offensive threat, better midrange game, much better shooting efficiency, better passing and court vision.

Derrick Rose might improve your scoring, but Deron Williams will improve your offense. And he's not a better defender.

[Jvaughn]

D-Will easily.

Prove it

The only thing Rose brings me that is better than D-Will is volume scoring, rebounding and slashing.

Deron gives me pick and roll plays and makes my bigmen look better, he'd make Noah and Boozer an offensive threat, better midrange game, much better shooting efficiency, better passing and court vision.

Derrick Rose might improve your scoring, but Deron Williams will improve your offense. And he's not a better defender.

I'm okay with anyone picking Deron, because it's at least arguable, but you should really use some context with those numbers you're throwing out.

Noah before injury was averaging a career high 15/13. Never came back fully healed, as evidenced by the fact that he failed his physical for the French National Team. Rose was making a player that most consider extremely offensively limited look good.

Boozer before injury was averaging 20/10 on amazing efficiency. After injury he lost all his lift, which eventually killed his confidence. His terrible 2nd half had nothing to do with Rose. You can't put the basket in the hoop for a guy. He was getting shots at the basket on a consistent basis, but was either missing shots or getting it stuffed back down his throat.

This fallacy that Rose was holding those guys back needs to end. The injuries are what held them back. Add to it that both players never found a way to work successfully together, and you have a recipe for disaster on the block. Both players played better with KT this year.

[chefy]

lol Bulls fans are being rick roll'd right now.

Many times posters here have compared Kobe to Jordan just because of Kobe's accolades. "5 rings/ getting to the finals 7 times etc."

Bulls' fans would just throw in Jordan's stats and say "not even close"....end of discussion.

"Jordan's more efficient, better w/s, playmaker, rebounder, per, etc."...which is true!

but now Bulls' fans are in the position of those posters who tries to compare Kobe to MJ.

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

[Jvaughn]

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

It would be just as easy to cherry pick stats and say Rose has better stats than all of them. He scores more than Nash, CP3, and Williams. Has more assists than Wade and Durant. Rebounds better than Williams. See works both ways.

[chefy]

too lazy to go through them all one by one analyze their stats and compare it to Rose's

but all those players in their best statistical year posted better stats than Rose's best stats year/last year/MVp except for the obvious of course; Durant for playmaking, and williams for rebounding

[JordansBulls]

lol Bulls fans are being rick roll'd right now.

Many times posters here have compared Kobe to Jordan just because of Kobe's accolades. "5 rings/ getting to the finals 7 times etc."

Bulls' fans would just throw in Jordan's stats and say "not even close"....end of discussion.

"Jordan's more efficient, better w/s, playmaker, rebounder, per, etc."...which is true!

but now Bulls' fans are in the position of those posters who tries to compare Kobe to MJ.

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

I agree that Wade is better and Nash once you factor in his career, but a lot of times comparison with Nash and Rose was about last year and that wasn't close. And guys like CP3 and Deron have been in the league twice as long and hasn't done as much as Rose. Durant is iffy, what helps him is he has another actual allstar on his team and even that went 7 games against the #8 seed.

[chefy]

lol Bulls fans are being rick roll'd right now.

Many times posters here have compared Kobe to Jordan just because of Kobe's accolades. "5 rings/ getting to the finals 7 times etc."

Bulls' fans would just throw in Jordan's stats and say "not even close"....end of discussion.

"Jordan's more efficient, better w/s, playmaker, rebounder, per, etc."...which is true!

but now Bulls' fans are in the position of those posters who tries to compare Kobe to MJ.

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

I agree that Wade is better and Nash once you factor in his career, but a lot of times comparison with Nash and Rose was about last year and that wasn't close. And guys like CP3 and Deron have been in the league twice as long and hasn't done as much as Rose. Durant is iffy, what helps him is he has another actual allstar on his team and even that went 7 games against the #8 seed.

true or not, that still make arguments like this useless

One finished as the highest 9th in MVP voting in the same league that one finished with the MVP trophy and the #1 seed.

[chefy]

and cp3 and dwill posted better stats in their 3rd PO appearance than Rose's 3rd(mvp) PO apperance