Building a franchise: Deron Williams or Derrick Rose

[Nothingface]

The age difference almost swayed me, but still went with Deron.

[Rerisen]

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

PER

Chris Paul 23.7
Derrick Rose 23.5
Deron Williams 21.1
Nash 20.8

Deron Williams in his whole career has never had a PER as high as Rose last year. So uh, no, it's nothing like Kobe being compared to Jordan.

Further, Kobe's career is pretty much done as far as peak play. While Rose has played only 3 years, with massive improvement in between each one. In a thread about building a franchise around a guy, it would be pretty negligent to not consider how much more Rose still has to show us in his career, especially against veteran or established guys, that at the least, he's already comparable to.

[jeff1624]

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

PER

Chris Paul 23.7
Derrick Rose 23.5
Deron Williams 21.1
Nash 20.8

Deron Williams in his whole career has never had a PER as high as Rose last year. So uh, no, it's nothing like Kobe being compared to Jordan.

Further, Kobe's career is pretty much done as far as peak play. While Rose has played only 3 years, with massive improvement in between each one. In a thread about building a franchise around a guy, it would be pretty negligent to not consider how much more Rose still has to show us in his career, especially against veteran or established guys, that at the least, he's already comparable to.

Joakim Noah's highest PER - 18.8
Brook Lopez' Career PER - 19.1


Yet that doesn't stop bulls fans from saying ''Noah >> Lopez EASILY''

[Jvaughn]

just to name a few; Nash, CP3, Wade, Williams,Durant...have all better stats than Drose. they're more efficient, better playmaker, per,or, w/s..etc.

PER

Chris Paul 23.7
Derrick Rose 23.5
Deron Williams 21.1
Nash 20.8

Deron Williams in his whole career has never had a PER as high as Rose last year. So uh, no, it's nothing like Kobe being compared to Jordan.

Further, Kobe's career is pretty much done as far as peak play. While Rose has played only 3 years, with massive improvement in between each one. In a thread about building a franchise around a guy, it would be pretty negligent to not consider how much more Rose still has to show us in his career, especially against veteran or established guys, that at the least, he's already comparable to.

Joakim Noah's highest PER - 18.8
Brook Lopez' Career PER - 19.1


Yet that doesn't stop bulls fans from saying ''Noah >> Lopez EASILY''

Might have something to do with the defensive edge in addition to the 6rpg from a starting C.

[ahonui06]

Deron Williams to start a franchise.

Williams is a bit older, but is bigger, stronger, and a much better floor general than Rose. William's playmaking abilities compared to Rose's are what sets him apart. Besides William's wrist injury this past season he hasn't had any major problems either.

[cool007]

Derrick Rose:

Better defender, better scorer, better leader, a lot younger, ton more athletic, better as a 1st option, led his team to best record overall, was the youngest MVP, was the all-star starter and all-nba 1st teamer in his 3rd year as a 22-year old.

Deron Williams NEVER had a PER higher than Rose EVER (it's a be all and end all stat but it's a huge indication).

Give me Rose.

[jeff1624]

PER

Chris Paul 23.7
Derrick Rose 23.5
Deron Williams 21.1
Nash 20.8

Deron Williams in his whole career has never had a PER as high as Rose last year. So uh, no, it's nothing like Kobe being compared to Jordan.

Further, Kobe's career is pretty much done as far as peak play. While Rose has played only 3 years, with massive improvement in between each one. In a thread about building a franchise around a guy, it would be pretty negligent to not consider how much more Rose still has to show us in his career, especially against veteran or established guys, that at the least, he's already comparable to.

Joakim Noah's highest PER - 18.8
Brook Lopez' Career PER - 19.1


Yet that doesn't stop bulls fans from saying ''Noah >> Lopez EASILY''

Might have something to do with the defensive edge in addition to the 6rpg from a starting C.

So what you're saying is that PER isn't the tell-all stat rerisen implied it was.

[cool007]

Deron Williams to start a franchise.

Williams is a bit older, but is bigger, stronger, and a much better floor general than Rose. William's playmaking abilities compared to Rose's are what sets him apart. Besides William's wrist injury this past season he hasn't had any major problems either.

Williams is NOT bigger or stronger than Rose. Williams is better at passing but basically everything else Rose has him beat.

Rose also has been much better defender than Williams as well.

[Sinant]

PER

Chris Paul 23.7
Derrick Rose 23.5
Deron Williams 21.1
Nash 20.8

Russell Westbrook - 23.6

Where does that leave us?

(I'm already on record saying I'd take Rose because of the age difference, but using PER like this or as a tipping point is flawed)

[cool007]

Joakim Noah's highest PER - 18.8
Brook Lopez' Career PER - 19.1


Yet that doesn't stop bulls fans from saying ''Noah >> Lopez EASILY''

Might have something to do with the defensive edge in addition to the 6rpg from a starting C.

So what you're saying is that PER isn't the tell-all stat rerisen implied it was.

Noah was sporting 23+ PER before getting hurt. After his injury he was a really different player and you can argue that in the 2nd half Lopez was better.

[ahonui06]

Deron Williams to start a franchise.

Williams is a bit older, but is bigger, stronger, and a much better floor general than Rose. William's playmaking abilities compared to Rose's are what sets him apart. Besides William's wrist injury this past season he hasn't had any major problems either.

Williams is NOT bigger or stronger than Rose. Williams is better at passing but basically everything else Rose has him beat.

Rose also has been much better defender than Williams as well.

Derrick Rose is listed at 6'3", 190 pounds.
Deron Williams is listed at 6'3", 210 pounds.

It's also quite noticeable the Williams looks larger than most point guards when he is out there on the court.

Defensively they are about the same. I wouldn't consider either one much better than the other.

I also believe that Williams can get more out of his teammates on the offensive end since he is a pass first PG where Rose is a shoot first PG.

[Jvaughn]

Joakim Noah's highest PER - 18.8
Brook Lopez' Career PER - 19.1


Yet that doesn't stop bulls fans from saying ''Noah >> Lopez EASILY''

Might have something to do with the defensive edge in addition to the 6rpg from a starting C.

So what you're saying is that PER isn't the tell-all stat rerisen implied it was.

It's not a tell all stat, but it is a really good indicator. And the fact that Williams (longer career) has never had a PER as high as Rose who is a 3rd year player, and still not in his prime, is very telling about the trajectory of his career. Also when people say Williams is better than Rose in every stat except volume scoring, it's a good counter argument.

[JordansBulls]

Deron Williams to start a franchise.

Williams is a bit older, but is bigger, stronger, and a much better floor general than Rose. William's playmaking abilities compared to Rose's are what sets him apart. Besides William's wrist injury this past season he hasn't had any major problems either.

Why would it be Deron Williams to start a franchise? He has finished 9th in MVP voting as his highest and when he did get to the conference finals it was Boozer who was the allstar not Deron.

[cool007]

Deron Williams to start a franchise.

Williams is a bit older, but is bigger, stronger, and a much better floor general than Rose. William's playmaking abilities compared to Rose's are what sets him apart. Besides William's wrist injury this past season he hasn't had any major problems either.

Williams is NOT bigger or stronger than Rose. Williams is better at passing but basically everything else Rose has him beat.

Rose also has been much better defender than Williams as well.

Derrick Rose is listed at 6'3", 190 pounds.
Deron Williams is listed at 6'3", 210 pounds.

It's also quite noticeable the Williams looks larger than most point guards when he is out there on the court.

Defensively they are about the same. I wouldn't consider either one much better than the other.

I also believe that Williams can get more out of his teammates on the offensive end since he is a pass first PG where Rose is a shoot first PG.

Deron has been heavier than Rose but he is NOT stronger than Rose. There is a difference.

Deron is a better passer in the pick and roll but a couple of more passes doesn't mean he makes others better. Rose gets more hockey assists since he is the primary scorer on a contending team. Meaning teams doubled and tripled him where they wanted to get the ball out of Rose's hands.

That can also make your teammates better (even without getting direct assists) coz that meant easier look for Bogans/Deng/Boozer/Noah etc. It's another thing that Boozer missed his bunnys, Bogans bricked while Noah was being ignored.

Rose elevated the entire team with his play and took over in the 4th. So couple of assists are not going to make or break him as a top PG IMO.

[Sinant]

I thought this had been beaten to death already, but the whole "Rose is going to keep exponentially increasing because he's already done ___ in his 3rd year" is faulty logic. Yes, Rose is going to improve as a player, but it's not like his prime is going to be on another plane entirely, it doesn't work that way.

LeBron's peak PER is only 3.5 higher than his 3rd year PER. Jordan's peak PER is less than 2 higher than his 3rd year PER. Shaq's peak PER is only 2 higher than his 3rd year PER.

Players don't keep getting better in massive amounts after their third year just because they're young. It's the same trap that Durant backers fell into last summer "Oh man he's gone from 20ppg to 25ppg to now 30ppg! He's going to explode for 33ppg next season!"

I'm not saying Rose won't improve as a player but the whole "HE'S NOT EVEN IN HIS PRIME YET!!!!!" thing is silly.

[Rapcity_11]

I thought this had been beaten to death already, but the whole "Rose is going to keep exponentially increasing because he's already done ___ in his 3rd year" is faulty logic. Yes, Rose is going to improve as a player, but it's not like his prime is going to be on another plane entirely, it doesn't work that way.

LeBron's peak PER is only 3.5 higher than his 3rd year PER. Jordan's peak PER is less than 2 higher than his 3rd year PER. Shaq's peak PER is only 2 higher than his 3rd year PER.

Players don't keep getting better in massive amounts after their third year just because they're young. It's the same trap that Durant backers fell into last summer "Oh man he's gone from 20ppg to 25ppg to now 30ppg! He's going to explode for 33ppg next season!"

I'm not saying Rose won't improve as a player but the whole "HE'S NOT EVEN IN HIS PRIME YET!!!!!" thing is silly.

Thank you. Precisely my thoughts. Star players almost always get very close to their statistical peaks by the end of year 3.

Last year was absolutely part of Rose's prime. His 3 year peak will probably come from years 5-9 somewhere however.

[jeff1624]

Might have something to do with the defensive edge in addition to the 6rpg from a starting C.

So what you're saying is that PER isn't the tell-all stat rerisen implied it was.

It's not a tell all stat, but it is a really good indicator. And the fact that Williams (longer career) has never had a PER as high as Rose who is a 3rd year player, and still not in his prime, is very telling about the trajectory of his career. Also when people say Williams is better than Rose in every stat except volume scoring, it's a good counter argument.

It's only a good indicator if you list Usage % anytime you mention PER. And it isn't a surprise to see both Rose and Westbrook have much higher usage rates than D-Will.

That's what makes Chris paul the best PG... He posts up higher PER then all other PG's yet does it with a much lower usage rate.

[Rapcity_11]

Nah, usage % is useless for PG's, since it doesn't include assists. Like completely useless.

[Rerisen]

So what you're saying is that PER isn't the tell-all stat rerisen implied it was.

My post had nothing to do with PER being a 'tell all' stat. The point was that Rose has comparable or better stats to some of the names there were mentioned, which is totally opposite to the Kobe/Jordan comparison that was made.

[jeff1624]

Nah, usage % is useless for PG's, since it doesn't include assists. Like completely useless.

Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

Come again??