Wilt vs Shaq

[jaypo]

LOL @ FushengTheShaqHater

Why do you think Kobe was able to go off against Portland and the Spurs? Do you think the fact that both teams were holding team meetings around the Diesel might have made it a bit easier for Kobe to have those explosive games?

And lets just convenietly forget how Dominant he was over the entirety of those series because only the small handful of games over that 3 year span where Oneal played bad should be used to represent him.

Lets also forget that in that game 7 vs Portland it was Shaq who scored 9 pts in the 4th after being held in check for most of the game.

Your a joke..

I think Kobe has proved over the course of his career that he isn't the type of talent that suddenly improves as a result of Shaq creating space for him. Kobe driving and dishing created a lot of easy baskets for Shaq as well. The Spurs guarded Shaq with DRob and they'd occaisionally send TD over for help, it's not as if they sent their whole squad on Shaq. For a MDE just admit Shaq was a bust in Game 7 at home. Couldn't even out-do Kobe in stats a big man should dominate in such as rebounds and blocks.

For someone that's supposedly "MDE" on the basis of '99-02 play, he should justify being held to a higher standard...especially considering a guy he was superior to in Hakeem had ZERO let down in the playoffs over a 3 year span from 92-95. Never once during that that span he needed to defer to anyone, was never carried by anyone with his season on the line. No FT woes, not getting beat out by a 35 yr. old Dikembe on a all-D NBA team, never had a problem closing out games.

Even if Shaq supposedly improved from getting swept in '95, his short comings show he was still an inferior Center to Hakeem in his prime who played near flawlessly.

Boy, you really are butt hurt that Shaq is known as the MDE, aren't you? Oh well. Did you not see my post about Shaq and Akeem's playoff records? It was in response to someone dissing Shaq for "always getting swept in the 90's". So I compared Shaq vs. Akeem's playoff records for their 1st 14 seasons. And the results were something like Shaq making the finals 6 times, conference finals 3 additional times, 2nd round exits 3 times, 1st round exit once, and missing the playoffs once in his rookie year. Akeem saw the door 7 times in the 1st round, 3 finals, etc. So Shaq goes to twice as many finals, only exits in the 1st round once, and is in the conference finals 3 times (I think) which totally blows Akeem away, and you claim that Akeem was the better playoff performer?

OH, I forgot. It was because of Shaq's supporting casts, right???

[34Dayz]

How many times did DRob win a championship without Duncan who is much better then Kobe?

Would Hakeem have even won that series vs Orlando if Shaqs supporting cast didn't choke and play terribly outside of Penny.

Would 3rd Year Hakeem be able to play on par or possibly outplay 00 Shaq?

Hmmm... Fusheng probably thinks so.

[ahonui06]

Lol nice Dodge Fushegi.

You couldnt refute any of my points so you just go back to spewing hate towards the player that is completely unrelated to what we were discussing or what I wrote/spoke of in my quote.

Fusheng : Oneal was bad at FT's, Hakeem was better because his team won.

Your blinded by hate but the fact is despite his flaws which every player has he still became the GOAT Center and a very strong argument can be made that by his 3rd Season he was already on par with Peak Hakeem.

Anyone who analyzes that 95 series fairly will see Shaq played on par if not better then Hakeem and the reason Oneal lost or better to say the reason why he got swept was because while Hakeem/Shaq and Penny/Drexler basically canceled eachother out the rest of the Rockets supporting cast stepped up and played well while the rest of Shaqs played terribly and chocked under pressure.

If you weren't so blatantly biased against Oneal you would understand this. And its not like Shaq chocked he averaged almost 12PPG in the 4th quarters in that Final series the most in the last 20 years, 2nd place is him again in 2000 and then Jordan in third place. So VS the greatest defensive C of all time he was throwing down almost 30PPG on 60% shooting and averaging 1/3rd of those points in the 4th Quarter... yea but I guess he should of averaged 40/20 with 20 in the 4th.. he was just not good enough.

Wow.. just reading your last post.. your such a Troll.

How so? That is Bill Russell.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Boy, you really are butt hurt that Shaq is known as the MDE, aren't you? Oh well. Did you not see my post about Shaq and Akeem's playoff records? It was in response to someone dissing Shaq for "always getting swept in the 90's". So I compared Shaq vs. Akeem's playoff records for their 1st 14 seasons. And the results were something like Shaq making the finals 6 times, conference finals 3 additional times, 2nd round exits 3 times, 1st round exit once, and missing the playoffs once in his rookie year. Akeem saw the door 7 times in the 1st round, 3 finals, etc. So Shaq goes to twice as many finals, only exits in the 1st round once, and is in the conference finals 3 times (I think) which totally blows Akeem away, and you claim that Akeem was the better playoff performer?

OH, I forgot. It was because of Shaq's supporting casts, right???

SMH, yeah add that Shaq had to run to a 50 win team and a franchise renowned for glory after not winning anything in Orlando, whereas Hakeem took a moribound franchise that won nothing, dragged it through hard times and turned it to a champion.

Again show me proof Shaq ever justified himself as MDE. Where are the myriad of players that hailed Shaq the official crown as MDE? His own teamate Horry that won MORE titles with him in LA than he did in his previous stop with Hakeem said:

"When asked who was the best center he ever played with, Horry, who played the middle for the Crimson Tide, didn’t bat an eyelash when he declared former Houston Rockets’ great Hakeem Olajuwon as the top slotman.
“He was so talented and could do so many different things. I’d put him on top and Tim [Duncan] and Shaquille [O’Neal] can trade places for second and third.”
Horry then paused, smiled, and made sure he was clear with his intentions, “Hey, Shaq and Tim...I love you guys, okay?”

[FuShengTHEGreat]

You couldnt refute any of my points so you just go back to spewing hate towards the player that is completely unrelated to what we were discussing or what I wrote/spoke of in my quote.

Fusheng : Oneal was bad at FT's, Hakeem was better because his team won.

Anyone who analyzes that 95 series fairly will see Shaq played on par if not better then Hakeem and the reason Oneal lost or better to say the reason why he got swept was because while Hakeem/Shaq and Penny/Drexler basically canceled eachother out the rest of the Rockets supporting cast stepped up and played well while the rest of Shaqs played terribly and chocked under pressure.

I already refuted your points.....you just won't acknowledge what I posted.

[jaypo]

Boy, you really are butt hurt that Shaq is known as the MDE, aren't you? Oh well. Did you not see my post about Shaq and Akeem's playoff records? It was in response to someone dissing Shaq for "always getting swept in the 90's". So I compared Shaq vs. Akeem's playoff records for their 1st 14 seasons. And the results were something like Shaq making the finals 6 times, conference finals 3 additional times, 2nd round exits 3 times, 1st round exit once, and missing the playoffs once in his rookie year. Akeem saw the door 7 times in the 1st round, 3 finals, etc. So Shaq goes to twice as many finals, only exits in the 1st round once, and is in the conference finals 3 times (I think) which totally blows Akeem away, and you claim that Akeem was the better playoff performer?

OH, I forgot. It was because of Shaq's supporting casts, right???

SMH, yeah add that Shaq had to run to a 50 win team and a franchise renowned for glory after not winning anything in Orlando, whereas Hakeem took a moribound franchise that won nothing, dragged it through hard times and turned it to a champion.

Again show me proof Shaq ever justified himself as MDE. Where are the myriad of players that hailed Shaq the official crown as MDE? His own teamate Horry that won MORE titles with him in LA than he did in his previous stop with Hakeem said:

"When asked who was the best center he ever played with, Horry, who played the middle for the Crimson Tide, didn’t bat an eyelash when he declared former Houston Rockets’ great Hakeem Olajuwon as the top slotman.
“He was so talented and could do so many different things. I’d put him on top and Tim [Duncan] and Shaquille [O’Neal] can trade places for second and third.”
Horry then paused, smiled, and made sure he was clear with his intentions, “Hey, Shaq and Tim...I love you guys, okay?”

Again, you show your butt hurtedness with the MDE title. Did he steal that from your or something? You're showing your immaturity by constantly referring to that as your reasoning!!

Shaq won nothing with Orlando? And Akeem took a moribund franchise and turned it around? Ok. I'll play. Orlando won 21 games in 92. In 93, they won 41 and missed the playoffs by 1 game. That would be Shaq's rookie season. A 20 game turnaround. They made the playoffs the next year. They made the finals the next year. Oh yeah. With Brian Hill as the coach! That's what I call turning around an EXPANSION franchise!!

Horry is correct. Akeem is a more skilled player than both Shaq and TD. But does that make him the better player? Nope. If he was so much better, he would have had more than 2 titles. He would have been able to avoid 7 1st round exits.

BTW- why is it that you'll take the word of an ex player as gospel, but when I post the word of coaches, analyists, and experts, you say that it holds no merit????

[34Dayz]

How so? That is Bill Russell.

Meh.. I will never bad mouth Russell because I respect him and the Art of Defense.

However I would be lying if I said I'd pick him ahead of players like Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem/KAJ

I guess personally I would worry that too much of his success came not only from his individual ability and intangibles but because of the greatness of his supporting casts. Perhaps if I actually got to watch him play i would feel differently.

[ThaRegul8r]

How so? That is Bill Russell.

Meh.. I will never bad mouth Russell because I respect him and the Art of Defense.

I commend you.

It's irritating how fans of players feel it necessary to badmouth any and all rivals to their favorite players' place in history. It smacks of insecurity. It's like politicians engaging in smear campaigns, but don't actually give you any reason to vote for them.

"Okay, you're telling me why I shouldn't vote for the other guy, but why should I vote for you?"

[FuShengTHEGreat]

LOL@jaypo. Horry was asked who was the BEST of the three. Notice how you have to alter his words just to save face. No mentioned anything about "most skilled" of the trio. I'd value his opinion over any analyst or coach given he's the only person to ever spend time day in and out with all three at their peaks.

He won MORE titles with Shaq and yet still considered Hakeem the BETTER Center. He wasn't even certain that he'd take Shaq over Duncan,lol.

Goes to show you how your basis of MDE doesn't work. You even reference coaches and analysts for your desperate mde claims. Here's Shaqs assistant Tex Winter speaking on him while he was a Laker:

"I'm going to expose him for the lazy overrated player he is" LOL.

[jaypo]

LOL@jaypo. Horry was asked who was the BEST of the three. Notice how you have to alter his words just to save face. No mentioned anything about "most skilled" of the trio. I'd value his opinion over any analyst or coach given he's the only person to ever spend time day in and out with all three at their peaks.

He won MORE titles with Shaq and yet still considered Hakeem the BETTER Center. He wasn't even certain that he'd take Shaq over Duncan,lol.

Goes to show you how your basis of MDE doesn't work. You even reference coaches and analysts for your desperate mde claims. Here's Shaqs assistant Tex Winter speaking on him while he was a Laker:

"I'm going to expose him for the lazy overrated player he is" LOL.

I'm going to start a new drinking game, REALGMers. Every time Fusheng whines about Shaq being called the MDE, take a sip of your beer. You should be sauced within 5 minutes!

Fusheng- do you have a suspicion that I gave Shaq that title? Is that why you whine to me like a 2 year old? I'm not the one that came up with it! So whining to me about MDE makes me laugh at you. And it created a great drinking game, so I encourage you to keep whining about it!!!

That's great that Horry thinks Akeem was better. I think he was "better" in some aspects as well. But I wouldn't take him over Shaq. Horry has an opinion, and so does Jaypo. Neither is correct or incorrect. They're OPINIONS! And it's STILL funny to me that you put more stock into 1 role player's OPINION than you do in countless coaches, players, and experts. So I guess it's fair to say that "you reference role players for your desperate attempts to discredit Shaq".

About Tex Winter- it's common knowledge that Tex hated Shaq, and I don't think Shaq was too fond of Tex either. Not sure why. Tex didn't feel that Shaq spent enough time working on his 20 ft. jumper. But I throw this out yet again. If you are better than anybody else in the league, why do you need to perfect anything else? You see what that kind of crap did to Wilt, didn't you? People said he couldn't shoot, so he started shooting from outside instead of sticking to his strong pionts. And that's one reason he couldn't win more than 2 titles for someone labeled MOST DOMINANT.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Boy, you really are butt hurt that Shaq is known as the MDE, aren't you? ???

Upset? I've been asking you for over a year, and instead I get nothing but off topic banter (oh Shaq held Hakeem to 47%, yadda yadda).....Who exactly are these people that hailed Shaq MDE? Known by whom exactly?

Who I ask? His ex-assistant coach hell no. His own ex-teamate isn't even certain he's even the second best big man he's ever ran with. I could name others.....you on the other hand haven't offered anything. And what does MDE entail in the first place?


You are full of myths it's comical to read you blow a fuse at times. I posted Ostertag held Shaq under 50% in the playoffs and you called me liar. You said in this thread Shaq "instilled his will on Hakeem"? Where did this happen? When Hakeem was old and broken down in '99? You said the same here for DRob and all you can post is some vicious dunk he did in a meaningless ASG? LOL.

How do you claim to instill your will on someone when they outscore head to head, that someone that drops 35pts and 15 rebs on you when you're facing elimination, they're named Finals MVP when you aren't?

[34Dayz]

FuSheng all your posts are filled with ignorance and hate, I dont how you expect people to take you seriously.

I guess you just hope fellow followers of your Agenda join in and make you feel better.

A Strong argument can be made that Hakeem was the best Center in the 95 Finals but to even say he outplayed Shaq is a bit farfetched. Although he scored slightly more he was doing it on far worse effeciency and was rebounding less blocking less shots and doing less overall on the court. Its clear the reason his Rockets won is because his supporting Cast stepped up and played well while Shaqs played poorly and notably chocked in the Final moments.

Most logical NBA fans will see that Shaq at worst played Hakeem to a wash and was pretty damn amazing in that series, he averaged 28.5 on close to 60% FG with 11.5PPG in the 4th quarter of those games, the highest in the last 20 years only matched by Shaq again in 00 vs the Pacers with Jordan right below them at 10.5.

No center reaches the peak of his abilitys/career by his Third Season and obviously if the roles were reversed and Prime Shaq (00) was going against 3rd year Hakeem im sure Shaq would have a decisive advantage in the matchup between them. I am not Biased and appreciate Hakeems abilitys so I wont say Prime Shaq would Dominate 95 Hakeem but I do think he was a much better player and I would have no fear betting that he would have a significant edge of him.

[jaypo]

Jaypo takes a drink and is surprised Fusheng took this long to reply.

I see it now. You really have a problem with comprehension. Because I'm actually teasing you for your obsession with the MDE title! I never gave him the title, and honestly, it means nothing to me! You are the one crying like a little girl about it. I think you bring it up just to get attention!

Anyhow, it was my calculator that lied to you, not me. And I stood corrected. That's what a man does- recognizes when he's wrong, which is why I question you! You can't seem to do so!

I never said Shaq "instilled his will" on Akeem. I said he IMPOSED his will on Akeem. And he did. Akeem couldn't stop him. He averaged 28 ppg on 57% from the field and held Akeem to 47% shooting for an entire series. I don't have to make this stuff up. It's right there for everyone to see!

Again, you are totally deflecting the truth. I challenge you to show me how Shaq was responsible for the 1995 loss in the finals to the Rockets. You show me why he is responsible, and I'll be back to totally destroy your entire argument and ruin your credibility (which won't take much!) Until then, I'll be drinking a beer, so go do some research and let me know what you come up with!

[ahonui06]

Jaypo takes a drink and is surprised Fusheng took this long to reply.

I see it now. You really have a problem with comprehension. Because I'm actually teasing you for your obsession with the MDE title! I never gave him the title, and honestly, it means nothing to me! You are the one crying like a little girl about it. I think you bring it up just to get attention!

Anyhow, it was my calculator that lied to you, not me. And I stood corrected. That's what a man does- recognizes when he's wrong, which is why I question you! You can't seem to do so!

I never said Shaq "instilled his will" on Akeem. I said he IMPOSED his will on Akeem. And he did. Akeem couldn't stop him. He averaged 28 ppg on 57% from the field and held Akeem to 47% shooting for an entire series. I don't have to make this stuff up. It's right there for everyone to see!

Again, you are totally deflecting the truth. I challenge you to show me how Shaq was responsible for the 1995 loss in the finals to the Rockets. You show me why he is responsible, and I'll be back to totally destroy your entire argument and ruin your credibility (which won't take much!) Until then, I'll be drinking a beer, so go do some research and let me know what you come up with!

Media and casual fans will always place the burden of losing on the team's star player. That's just the way it is. Therefore, Shaq was the reason why the Magic lost in 1995.

[34Dayz]

I don't think Media/Casual fans should be allowed on RealGM. (lol)

or there should be a special section for them.

[nolunch]

By watching the youtube videos, honestly, I think Rookie Shaq is better than Prime Wilt.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

No center reaches the peak of his abilitys/career by his Third Season and obviously if the roles were reversed and Prime Shaq (00) was going against 3rd year Hakeem im sure Shaq would have a decisive advantage in the matchup between them. I am not Biased and appreciate Hakeems abilitys so I wont say Prime Shaq would Dominate 95 Hakeem but I do think he was a much better player and I would have no fear betting that he would have a significant edge of him.

Oh really. Earlier on your statement was Prime Shaq would obliterate 95 Hakeem, but now you're recanting? lol.

You are being biased. Hakeem's prime was unique in that it came for a short period after the age of 30 when your athleticism starts to decline. Only a handful of players have played their best basketball on the wrong side of 30. 95 Hakeem wasn't as dominant a defensive player as his athleticism started to subside, and he was losing the ability to dominate the boards, especially on the offensive end. He was 32 years old and Shaq was 23.

The fairest way would be to swap ages instead of your biased "what if" scenario. Let a 23 year old Hakeem that took an overachieving Rocket team in 86 very close to a title face a 32 year old fading Shaq that couldn't even outrebound 6'9" midget compared to him in the NBA Finals and see what happens.

It wouldn't be pretty for Shaq.

[jaypo]

Yeah, let's use age. Because as you stated, every player's prime is exactly at the same age, right? Out of 1 side of your mouth, you say it's not fair to argue what 34 Days argues, and out of the other side, you do the exact same thing.

You wanna be fair? You have to discuss what they'd do in their respective primes. The majority of the people acknowledge that Akeem was at his prime when he won his 2 titles. Shaq faced Akeem, therefore, in his prime. And he did very well. Shaq reached his around 98 with his peak being 00-03. Do you honestly, and I mean honestly believe that the 01 version of Shaq would do worse than the 95 version of Shaq? The 01 Shaq is being debated even by haters as being the highest peak EVER. He's being compared to MJ. Now, do you think that the 01 version of Shaq is any worse than the 95 version?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I said he IMPOSED his will on Akeem. And he did. Akeem couldn't stop him. He averaged 28 ppg on 57% from the field and held Akeem to 47% shooting for an entire series. I don't have to make this stuff up. It's right there for everyone to see!

Again, you are totally deflecting the truth. I challenge you to show me how Shaq was responsible for the 1995 loss in the finals to the Rockets. You show me why he is responsible, and I'll be back to totally destroy your entire argument and ruin your credibility (which won't take much!) Until then, I'll be drinking a beer, so go do some research and let me know what you come up with!

Yeah just as I thought ain't nobody outside of some RealGM Shaq worshippers hailed Shaq the MDE, when you say I'm upset that Shaq is "KNOWN" for being so.

LOL@Shaq imposed his will on Hakeem? Dude are you for real? He averaged 28ppg which was LESS than what he averaged in the regular season. Hakeem averaged MUCH more ppg than he did in the regular season. It's real odd Hakeem didn't come close to sniffing 33ppg (ok 32.8 but I rounded up!) in his previous two Finals appearances but he did vs. Shaq and Horace Grant?

Hakeem was also guarded by all-D PF Horace Grant and you're here praising Shaq to "holding" him to for 48, (not your 47%) from the floor. Shaq was not solely responsible Jaypo!

Only on RealGM is holding a guy to 33ppg, getting torched with your season on the line while your biggest opponent is awarded a Finals MVP award seen as "holding" and imposing your will on them?

[34Dayz]

28/13/4/2.5 on 60% shooting with 11.5ppg in the 4th Quarter of a series is imposing his will, Hakeem tried his best but he wasn't even able to slow down Shaq in the slightest that series.

Only in Fushengs mind is
32ppg on 47% shooting > 28ppg on 60% shooting

Hakeems supporting cast was better then Shaqs that series and that is the only reason the Rockets won.

Hakeem did not outplay Shaq, and even if you think he did that series the difference would be so small that to call it anything other then insigificant would be Trolling.

I am simply content to say that Shaq in his 3rd season was already playing on par with Peak Hakeem.