does shaq have a case for #2 GOAT

[jaypo]

Sorry. Wrong choice of words. I'd say his PRIME lasted 10 years. His peak was about 99-04. And ironically, he had a bunch of injuries that limited his peak.

[Gongxi]

And because his peak is limited, while his body of work is still better than 99.99% of every NBA player ever, that factor limits him in the discussions against the Jordans, KAJs, Wilts, etc.

[Die93]

A "prime Shaq" in THEE worst Center era since the Mikan days with little to no head 2 head competition couldn't even out-do a aging soon to be 35 yr. old Dikembe Mutombo on a all-NBA defensive team, but yet he's better defensively than Kareem?

Who really thinks Wilt, Russell, Kareem or Hakeem at the zenith of their careers would be upstaged by a 34 yr. old Deke on a All-D team? That wouldn't even happen to David Robinson.

Shaq is definitely a top5 all-time Center. Anywhere from 3-5 behind Kareem the GOAT C and Hakeem to me.

The worst era? You DO realize that he faced players like PRIME Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Duncan, Mutombo, and Deke, Yao, and Dwight, don't you? Actually, Shaq came into the league in one of the BEST eras for center play. I know you're gonna say "he didn't win anything until they were old". Well, do you criticize MJ for winning in a weak SG era??

Why can't you just admit that Shaq was a great player? You've NEVER answered my question as to why you hate him so much.

No were talking about his "prime" or is it only his prime when convenient?

00-02 Was a bad era for centers, offensively they were laughably bad outside shaq, he dominated but you have to look at competetion. thats why its a big boost for Hakeem that he was able to dominate and be considered the best in the GOAT era for his position



And yes i criticize MJ for playing in a bad era for SG's, it hurts his legacy

[jaypo]

So instead of a demi god, MJ just has to settle for "GOAT" because you said so, right?? Don't you think that maybe there was no competition for the great players because they were great players??? And no matter who they're matched up against, they come out on top? I mean, even when I point out that Shaq has faced Zo, Deke, BWallace, Dwight, Yao, Ewing, Drob, Akeem, Duncan, Sabas, Divac, Muresan, Bol, Bradley, etc., he has done "okay" against all of them. That's not a very weak crop of centers!

Oh, and MJ faced players like Dumars, DJ, Aguire, Nique, Miller, Richmond, your hero Kobe, VC, etc. Not a bad crop of swingmen either. But it doesn't really matter. He schooled them all equally. That's what great players do. But I know it's too much for you to give any credit to Shaq. After all, he ONLY started winning when Kobe was playing like MJ. And he only went to the finals when 2nd year Penny was dominating the league.

[Die93]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Competetion matters to me. And there were NO conisistent offense threats to challenge shaq thats one of the reasons he appeared better on D then he did in the 90's.

Ill give u clyde drexler, but after that there were no real competetiors at the SG position for Jordan. in the 80's he was playing on one iso ball against craig ehlo.... i mean come on...

[ahonui06]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Competetion matters to me. And there were NO conisistent offense threats to challenge shaq thats one of the reasons he appeared better on D then he did in the 90's.

Ill give u clyde drexler, but after that there were no real competetiors at the SG position for Jordan. in the 80's he was playing on one iso ball against craig ehlo.... i mean come on...

What's Kobe's peak and what was his competition? Iverson, McGrady, & Carter?

[Die93]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Competetion matters to me. And there were NO conisistent offense threats to challenge shaq thats one of the reasons he appeared better on D then he did in the 90's.

Ill give u clyde drexler, but after that there were no real competetiors at the SG position for Jordan. in the 80's he was playing on one iso ball against craig ehlo.... i mean come on...

What's Kobe's peak and what was his competition? Iverson, McGrady, & Carter?

Your comparing their competetion to Kobe's? why are you bringing him up anyway?

Kobe's prime was 2001-2009 his peak was 2006.

But if you want to know kobe plays in the GOAT era for SG's and Perimter players in general. Look at the Great Sg's of Kobe's era


Tmac
Wade
Iverson
Carter
Ray Allen
Ginobli
Ray allen
Roy
JoJohson
Rip
Redd
Arenas

etc

[jaypo]

But, but, but I thought TMac was hurt all the time. I thought Carter was mentally weak. I thought Iverson was an inefficient ballhog. I though Ray Allen was only a 3 pt. specialist. I thought Manu wasn't in Kobe's tier. Roy? Really? Roy?? Johnson??? Rip?? Redd? Agent Zero? And you criticize Shaq for going up against Deke because " he was old"? Well, Deke was still good enough to be DPOY. Oh, yeah. Ben Wallace- also DPOY. Dwight- DPOY.

When Shaq faced Drob, Ewing, Zo, and Akeem (and Chief), the only one past his prime was Chief. All of the others were in their respective primes. Are you forgetting that as well?

[Die93]

THEY WERE IN THIER PRIME, Shaq wasnt werea talking about PRIME Shaq, or again ill ask you

Is it only prime shaq when its convenient?(when stating his competetion you go back to those 90's centers, but when hes swept in the finals wiht HCA and another 25 PPG scorer on his team he isnt)


Tmac is one of the best SG's of all time scoring champion and an all nba Player in his prime

AI is one of the GOAT scorers and league MVP

Carter was 25-28 PPG scorer in his prime

Redd, manu, agent zero, rip and Jo johsnon are all Allstar level players and Roy in his prime is an all nba second teamer.

Did u just call ray allen a 3 PT specialist? Do you watch basketball? Reggie miller is a 3pt specialiast ray allen is a 25 PPG all around great player

Kobe's competetion in his prime's>>>>>>>>Shaq's and its not even close

But back to shaq

Mutumbo was good defensively but still past his prime, didnt he put up 17 PPG on 60% against shaq in the finals tho?

[G35]

Honestly I think Shaq is up there also with Jordan and KAJ. The only knocks against Shaq imo is similar to KAJ is he didn't win enough at the beginning of his career, he has had all time great help on the perimeter (Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Nash....damn has anyone had it better) and he didn't win more.

If you are the MDE. Then he should have been winning like MJ, Russell, Magic/Kareem did.

No one knocks Shaq's production. His only flaw is FT shooting. But when he is so dominant around the basket who cares. But as you can see you can't just plop Shaq on a team and they win a championship. He will make them a contender but then so would Wilt, Russell, KAJ, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Dwight.

Shaq has shown he needs upper tier level help to win and that can't be denied. He couldn't win with All Stars. Everytime he has made the finals with Kobe or Wade they were either 1st or 2nd team All NBA players so one of the top 5 perimeter players in the league. A lot of other great centers didn't have that during Shaq's career. Hakeem never did, Robinson and Ewing certainly never had that. Shaq has been fortunate as Russell or Kareem as far as help.....

[jaypo]

Well then I guess Kobe has shown his inability to win without upper tier level help as well. Robinson never have a great player? Mr. Tim Duncan would like a word with you, sir. Hakeem never had tip tier help? Mr. Barkley, Mr. Pippen, and Mr. Drexler would like a word with you. Shaq has never had 6 HOFers at his side at any given time.

Do you knock MJ for not winning early in his career? Shaq won his 1st title in his 8th year. MJ- 7th. And Shaq came into the league at an earlier age than MJ.

You can't just "plop Shaq on a team and win a 'chip". But you can plop him on a team and make them instant contenders. See- Magic, Lakers, and Heat- all of which have been to the finals with Shaq. Could you put Kobe on the 1992 Magic and have a 20 game turnaround? Would he have them in the finals by his 3rd year against teams like Akeem's Rockets and MJ's Bulls?

Your argument works both ways. Nobody did it alone. But you guys searching for something to knock Shaq about are getting desperate!

[34Dayz]

If you are the MDE. Then he should have been winning like MJ, Russell, Magic/Kareem did.

Yea.. since winning Titles is based purely on the ability of a teams best player and nothing else.

The team with the best player in the league ALWAYS wins the Title.

There is so much stupidity in this thread it makes my head hurt.

Kareem had Magic
Wilt had JWest/Baylor
Duncan had DRob, Manu, Parker
Kobe had Prime Shaq + Prime Gasol / Top 3 Supporting Cast

All great players have won with help.. Shaq didnt have more help then the average GOAT.

From 00-03 There were a few players on Kobe's Tier like TMac, VC, Pierce Then later on Wade/Lebron.

From 99-11 the only player "close" to Shaqs Tier is Duncan.

The only players from 93-2010 that can be put on Shaqs Tier are Duncan and Hakeem.

Players from 93-2010 on Kobes Tier are Jordan, Wade, Pierce, Prime TMAC, Prime VC, Lebron, Drexler is close in his Prime and so are Prime Iverson, Ginobili.

Personally I think Jordan is by far the best SG of this Era followed a ways down by Kobe/Wade in a separate Tier.

Center wise I think Shaq is by far the best followed by Duncan/Hakeem.

Even so its clear that Bigmen on the level of Shaq are far rarer and more valuable then Elite Wings, not because Wings like Kobe are a dime a dozen but because over this generation there are a much larger number of players who could give you production and impact "close" to what he gave and maybe one or two guards better (Jordan, Wade)

And for me personally (although im sure plenty of people disagree) there are no Wing players that have close to the same impact on the court as the GOAT Centers other then Jordan. I am sure some Kobe fans think he is Equal to or close to Jordan so they will think he is also equal to that but I am not one who shares that opinion.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Prime Shaq's domination of his cupcake opponents from 99-02 compared to the 90s Golden Age of center play is like being Wladimir Klitschko the heavyweight champ now, who really gave a damned about any of the guys he's beaten...compared to when Ali was heavyweight champion in the 70s and going toe to toe with the true greats of the sport and winning titles.

[jaypo]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Prime Shaq's domination of his cupcake opponents from 99-02 compared to the 90s Golden Age of center play is like being Wladimir Klitschko the heavyweight champ now, who really gave a damned about any of the guys he's beaten...compared to when Ali was heavyweight champion in the 70s and going toe to toe with the true greats of the sport and winning titles.

A frontcourt of Duncan and Drob is "cupcake". Deke, the DPOY was "cupcake". Ben Wallace is a "cupcake". Right. I'm sure you could post up prime Russell, right Fusheng??

[colts18]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Prime Shaq's domination of his cupcake opponents from 99-02 compared to the 90s Golden Age of center play is like being Wladimir Klitschko the heavyweight champ now, who really gave a damned about any of the guys he's beaten...compared to when Ali was heavyweight champion in the 70s and going toe to toe with the true greats of the sport and winning titles.

Shaq dominated Wallace, Mutombo, and Mourning who won a combined 10 DPOY from 95-06 with part of it during the so-called golden age of centers. Plus those so called amazing centers of the 90's

Mutombo:
Shaq: 22-12-2, 52 FG% (17-7)
Mutombo: 8-9-0, 50 FG%
playoffs:
Shaq: 33-16-5, 57 FG% (4-1)
Mutombo: 17-12-0, 60 FG%

Robinson:
Shaq: 26-12-2, 54 FG% (11-12)
Robinson: 19-10-3, 47 FG%
Playoffs:
Shaq: 25-13-3, 52 FG% (9-8)
Robinson: 10-7-1, 45 FG% (all past Robinson's prime, but he had Duncan for help)

Ewing:
Shaq: 29-12-3, 54 FG% (15-11)
Ewing: 21-11-2, 44 FG%

Olajuwon:
Shaq: 22-12-4, 54 FG% (14-6)
Olajuwon: 18-9-3, 45 FG%
playoffs:
Shaq: 29-11-5, 56 FG% (3-5)
Olajuwon: 23-9-3, 47 FG% (so much for him dominating Shaq in the playoffs)

Ben Wallace:
Shaq: 25-10-3, 59 FG% (13-10)
Wallace: 6-9-1 51 FG% (his offensive numbers are irrelevant)
playoffs:
Shaq: 22-9-1, 61 FG% (8-14)
Wallace: 8-11-2, 47 FG% (again its irrelevant)

[34Dayz]

Yea.. its Shaqs fault his team lost to Hakeems in the 95 Finals, he only averaged 29PPG on 60% shooting with close to 12PPG in the 4th quarter of those games.

If it wasnt for the fact that Hakeems supporting cast outplayed his thoroughly he could easily have won the Title in 95, after that the Bulls were dominating for awhile so no one really had a chance to Win titles and then he had two very mediocre supporting casts.

After that the league was pretty much unchanged but Shaq entered his Prime and he went on to make 5 Finals and one ECF from 00-06 with 4 Titles and 3FMVP. Who in the 90's outside of Hakeem was much better then Shaqs competition in the 00's? DRob and Ewing? What about Prime Duncan/DRob of the 00's or the Wallace Twins? What about the Portland defensive Trio of Sabonis/Prime Sheed/Pippen. KG.. guess he is a scrub too, DPOY Mutombo and Wallace were actually bad defenders right? Shaqs also lucky he got to play all these "scrub" players 1 on 1 cause its not like teams considered him a threat so he never faced any double or triple teams.

[jaypo]

Yea.. its Shaqs fault his team lost to Hakeems in the 95 Finals, he only averaged 29PPG on 60% shooting with close to 12PPG in the 4th quarter of those games.

If it wasnt for the fact that Hakeems supporting cast outplayed his thoroughly he could easily have won the Title in 95, after that the Bulls were dominating for awhile so no one really had a chance to Win titles and then he had two very mediocre supporting casts.

After that the league was pretty much unchanged but Shaq entered his Prime and he went on to make 5 Finals and one ECF from 00-06 with 4 Titles and 3FMVP. Who in the 90's outside of Hakeem was much better then Shaqs competition in the 00's? DRob and Ewing? What about Prime Duncan/DRob of the 00's or the Wallace Twins? What about the Portland defensive Trio of Sabonis/Prime Sheed/Pippen. KG.. guess he is a scrub too, DPOY Mutombo and Wallace were actually bad defenders right? Shaqs also lucky he got to play all these "scrub" players 1 on 1 cause its not like teams considered him a threat so he never faced any double or triple teams.

Dude, no matter how much of a case you make (and you just made a great one), they'll always say that Shaq faced scrubs and Kobe faced the gauntlet! It's like beating your head against a wall. But I have a hard head!

[34Dayz]

Yea.. it is a bit confusing since I think the only Center from the 90's who was on (Prime) Shaqs Tier was Hakeem and the 00's had only one with Duncan. You say DRob I say KG. Even if the 90's Centers were better I dont think the overall difference was very significant, then you have DHoward, Yao for a time (he was imo better then DRob/Ewing)

[jaypo]

Yea.. it is a bit confusing since I think the only Center from the 90's who was on (Prime) Shaqs Tier was Hakeem and the 00's had only one with Duncan. You say DRob I say KG. Even if the 90's Centers were better I dont think the overall difference was very significant, then you have DHoward, Yao for a time (he was imo better then DRob/Ewing)

One thing they always bring up is that Shaq didn't win titles until all of the centers were old or washed up. Specifically "he didn't win anything until Akeem and DRob were past their primes". However, he made it to the finals in 95. He had deep playoff runs during those guys' primes. But I guess that since he didn't win a title, those were meaningless.

Die93 even had the nerve to say that MJ's legacy is tarnished because he played against weak 2 guards! That's how ridiculous it is!

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Shaq dominated Wallace, Mutombo, and Mourning who won a combined 10 DPOY from 95-06 with part of it during the so-called golden age of centers. Plus those so called amazing centers of the 90's

He couldn't even outrebound Wallace h2h in the playoffs! How does that happen with such a big size advantage in his favour?

Mourning and Mutumbo never bothered anyone elite. Mourning was always a loose screw in the playoffs when the pressure was on. Mutumbo hardy har har, he only played one side of the floor.

DRob and Hakeem....he NEVER dominated these guys before they got injured, so sorry if I find your stats flawed. And post whatever stats you want, but Hakeem won a title matched against Shaq and that has to account for something. He won the scoring title that year and finished ahead of him on the all-D team, so don't make him out to be some wounded animal. Shaq only badmouthed Hakeem when he was 36 and on his last legs in the '99 playoffs. He kept his mouth shut in '95 and laid down in Game 4 waving a white flag.

He did not need to play a deferential role that Shaq had to do vs. the only team (SA) that could stand up to him in his title years. Nor did TD, nor did Mailman. All 3 of these guys have steamrolled past Shaq in the playoffs....and he's always above these guys on all-time lists? LOL. Any prime HOF interior player has had their way with a Shaq led team winning wise unless he could defer to Kobe. It happened in '95, it happened in '97 and '98 and it happened in '99 and '03.