Top Trade Value SGs - DONE

[FNQ]

Hah wow. Yeah we did forget entirely about Matthews, his trade value should be pretty damn solid.

I figured he would be on the SF value list... but yeah he's definitely higher than 10, too.

Why, he's a shooting guard.

Because I remember him as a SF in college next to Jerel McNeal and that PG they had who was supposed to be good, but wasn't. Didn't really follow him in the NBA much, and thought he was a 6'7 220+, what I thought I remembered from college.

[vincecarter4pres]

Because I remember him as a SF in college next to Jerel McNeal and that PG they had who was supposed to be good, but wasn't. Didn't really follow him in the NBA much, and thought he was a 6'7 220+, what I thought I remembered from college.

Well after checking I was surprised to see he basically split his minuted evenly between SG and SF and was pretty much equally effective at both spots, even leaning a touch towards the 3.

I was surprised, I knew he played mainly as a 3 in college but I knew he was only 6'5, maybe 6'6 at best in shoes and I doubt the latter.

[nevetsov]

If we are Talking purely in terms of 'trade value', wouldn't Vince Carter need to be considered here?

He represents an INSTANTANEOUS $14million dollar salary savings by virtue of his extended buyout deadline, and with the uncertainty of the looming CBA most teams could be looking to ditch heavy salary, which usually attracts picks/ young prospects as sweetener.

I think nevetsov has a fantastic point, something we all overlooked.

Vince absolutely has more value than a TPE. Most teams with capspace are looking to get something for free, and aren't usually looking to trade with it. The only problem is, its a niche market. The only teams that are going to be in on him are teams that want to get out of the luxury tax, or teams that are already or very close to the salary cap line. But to those teams, that capspace/lux tax room can be incredibly valuable. Thats exactly what landed the Mavericks Tyson Chandler, taking advantage of the Bobcats desire to get out from under the luxury tax.

He's like an expiring +, and I think a lot of GMs in the league would value that over middling prospects, which is where we are at 10 and beyond as far as SGs go.

I'd consider putting him 11th on this list, but 10th on my list. Still can't believe Kobe at 3

I cannot think of a single way Vince Carter's 4 million guaranteed contract is better then a TPE.
Costs you 4 million in dollars.
Costs you 4 million in cap space.
Gives you nothing.

Feel free to explain.

Alright, say team X has a high payroll and wants to create some financial flexibility by ditching contracts, heading into the uncertainty of the new CBA.

They have players that are not part of their future - $22.5m of such players can be traded for VC's $18m, and with VC's option immediately declined for $4m, the result would be an instantaneous payroll reduction of up to $18.5m THIS season.

VC is essentially the equivalent of an $18.5m TE. So it depends on what premium teams put on that going into the new CBA.

[Village Idiot]

Because I remember him as a SF in college next to Jerel McNeal and that PG they had who was supposed to be good, but wasn't. Didn't really follow him in the NBA much, and thought he was a 6'7 220+, what I thought I remembered from college.

Well after checking I was surprised to see he basically split his minuted evenly between SG and SF and was pretty much equally effective at both spots, even leaning a touch towards the 3.

I was surprised, I knew he played mainly as a 3 in college but I knew he was only 6'5, maybe 6'6 at best in shoes and I doubt the latter.

The only reason Matthews got time at SF was due to Portland injury issues at C. With Oden, Przybilla, Pendergraph and Camby all missing time Aldridge got pushed to center with Batum or later Wallace at PF. With Rudy or Roy at SG (when he was healthy) that meant Wes was our SF. He also spent some time at PG but he just doesn't have the same quickness Batum has to be able to guard anything but the slower points.

Matthews is very much a SG.

[lukekarts]

Why can't I vote for Joe Johnson?!


















OK, I kid. Ginobili vs. Matthews is pretty close though. I suppose the telling factor is, I couldn't see Portland trading Wes for Manu, nor could I see SAS trading Manu for Wes. Wes is (surprisingly, given the reaction 12 months ago) great value for money, but he'll most likely never be a star. I still think a lot of teams would be more sold on the potential of someone like Mayo, however.

[HartfordWhalers]

quote="nevetsov"If we are Talking purely in terms of 'trade value', wouldn't Vince Carter need to be considered here?

He represents an INSTANTANEOUS $14million dollar salary savings by virtue of his extended buyout deadline, and with the uncertainty of the looming CBA most teams could be looking to ditch heavy salary, which usually attracts picks/ young prospects as sweetener./quote

I think nevetsov has a fantastic point, something we all overlooked.

Vince absolutely has more value than a TPE. Most teams with capspace are looking to get something for free, and aren't usually looking to trade with it. The only problem is, its a niche market. The only teams that are going to be in on him are teams that want to get out of the luxury tax, or teams that are already or very close to the salary cap line. But to those teams, that capspace/lux tax room can be incredibly valuable. Thats exactly what landed the Mavericks Tyson Chandler, taking advantage of the Bobcats desire to get out from under the luxury tax.

He's like an expiring +, and I think a lot of GMs in the league would value that over middling prospects, which is where we are at 10 and beyond as far as SGs go.

I'd consider putting him 11th on this list, but 10th on my list. Still can't believe Kobe at 3

I cannot think of a single way Vince Carter's 4 million guaranteed contract is better then a TPE.
Costs you 4 million in dollars.
Costs you 4 million in cap space.
Gives you nothing.

Feel free to explain.

Alright, say team X has a high payroll and wants to create some financial flexibility by ditching contracts, heading into the uncertainty of the new CBA.

They have players that are not part of their future - $22.5m of such players can be traded for VC's $18m, and with VC's option immediately declined for $4m, the result would be an instantaneous payroll reduction of up to $18.5m THIS season.

VC is essentially the equivalent of an $18.5m TE. So it depends on what premium teams put on that going into the new CBA.

Well, at the very least I will say that if it is equivalent of a TPE, then calling it absolutely more value then a TPE makes no sense whatsoever.

But if people think VC's contract is soo valuable (and are forgetting the haul that Toronto got for its TPE that size, or Phx, or Cleveland all within the last year), then go ahead and pick a few big men targets and make the teams offers:
i.e:

2 Offers for Okafor: Pick your favorite NO fans
a) VC
b) Paul George (Indy has the cap room for it).

Or try your straight up trade:
VC for Paul George + Indy's cap space

Or better yet, lets watch GS fans have fun with:
2 Offers for Beans (and Charlie Bell to make it work salary wise):
a) VC http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3hxetkq
b) Paul George http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3oh9trw

Feel free and put 3 million and a 2nd rounder with VC, I will not complain in the slightest.

[MarJJMar]

Jared Dudley is woth a shout here if you are going to put Wes Matthews and Gordon Hayward on there.

[nevetsov]

Well, at the very least I will say that if it is equivalent of a TPE, then calling it absolutely more value then a TPE makes no sense whatsoever.

But if people think VC's contract is soo valuable (and are forgetting the haul that Toronto got for its TPE that size, or Phx, or Cleveland all within the last year), then go ahead and pick a few big men targets and make the teams offers:
i.e:

2 Offers for Okafor: Pick your favorite NO fans
a) VC
b) Paul George (Indy has the cap room for it).

Or try your straight up trade:
VC for Paul George + Indy's cap space

Or better yet, lets watch GS fans have fun with:
2 Offers for Beans (and Charlied Bell to make it work salary wise):
a) VC http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3hxetkq
b) Paul George http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3oh9trw

Feel free and put 3 million and a 2nd rounder with VC, I will not complain in the slightest.

I'm not sure you understand the point of VC's "value" comrade. No one is comparing him to Paul George (or any player for that matter), it is about the potential financial benefit he would have in a trade.

But let's use your example - I'm not sure what P.G. is on (rookie scale, say $3-4m?), any of the aforementioned teams could trade for P.G. and send out around the same salary in return (or absorb him if they have the capspace).

Or, they could sent out $22.5m odd worth of players for VC, cut him, and all of a sudden have an additional $18m of capspace (or savings if they are over the cap).

Such a reduction would likely present the majority of teams with enough room to absorb additional players, and with the looming CBA and potential cap reduction, it is expected to be a buyers market.

Essentially, if you were a team sitting at the cap, you would not be trading "for" VC, you're trading for the subtraction of up to ~22.5m of players for a bought out VC and the potential to sign/ absorb up to $18m of other players.

If you were a team over the tax threshold, trading for VC would save you double the $$ that you were over the tax. So potential to save up to $36m this year.

These are obviously best case scenarios but they give an idea of the kind of value that can be extracted from a VC trade.

[FNQ]

VC's contract is more value than the usual TPE, of which large ones are very infrequent. Obviously a TPE of the same size as VC's contract is more valuable, but I dont remember there ever being one TPE at 18m.

And we're talking about the team that would pay the most to get said asset, not the league-wide average. A team would pay more to get the rarer asset - the 14 mil in instant cap space - over middling wing prospects.

Suggesting implausible scenarios, especially the IND one, doesnt make your case more valid, it verifies that you are using value team to team, instead of the peak value of a TPE vs the peak value of one of these wing prospects. When a team gives up a solid wing prospect and lands a impactful 7' C, wake me. Until then, I'll keep believing that a TPE has more value than wing draftees. Dallas should certainly agree.

[HartfordWhalers]

The crazy thing is, the same Suns had a TPE just about that big (16.5m) all of a year ago. So that should provide a pretty good basis of exactly what it gets.

[arbsn]

this thread is a fail.

manu needs to be top 5....

[RiotPunch]

WTF? Wes Matthews? His contract negates his value talent-wise.

[sixerswillrule]

WTF? Wes Matthews? His contract negates his value talent-wise.

Seriously? Do you know how many SG/SF worse than Matthews make similar money? Tons of fringe starters and backups make 6-8 million per year. Based on his production last season and his age(even if he doesn't improve), his contract is excellent value.

[nevetsov]

The crazy thing is, the same Suns had a TPE just about that big (16.5m) all of a year ago. So that should provide a pretty good basis of exactly what it gets.

Someone mentioned earlier, we are talking about the present, and not 12 months ago. The looming CBA plays a significant part in this as most teams are hesitant to add salary without knowing what the long term ramifications are. An $18m off coupon does have value irrespective of how the Suns choose to (wastefully) spend it.

[HartfordWhalers]

Well, if the most recent 14 million + tpe's within a year haven't been worth much, but the one upcoming with a 4 million salary and salary cap hit attached will be; how about we agree that it is tragic that that many GM's could not see a CBA change coming?

Or it could be that the ability to take on a bad contract, in and of itself has never had that much intrinsic value. The absorbing of an awful contract will get you some positive assets, it always has. But absorbing a contract another team wants to dump is in general undesirable, and so teams have rarely if ever paid much to gain this ability.

[FNQ]

Poor teams are the ones you target with the TPEs, not the ones you expect to use them. Its like buying a tampon company and wondering why men aren't buying your product. Wrong demo.

The notoriously cheap Suns decision to sit on their TPE is their choice, as it would have brought them into the luxury tax. Raptors were on the edge as well.

The good team that the same thing as a TPE, used it to acquire the difference maker in the finals from a team that desperately needed to get under the tax line. Before the new CBA.

[rocopc]

this thread is a fail.

manu needs to be top 5....

[vincecarter4pres]

this thread is a fail.

manu needs to be top 5....

Because he's 34 and said he's going to retire in 2 years, or because he's injury prone as a mug?

[Darth Tyrannus]

If full season I would think Ray Allen would be in the top ten

[Relentless88]

This is about trade values. Of course Manu would be much higher but his value isn't the greatest.