does shaq have a case for #2 GOAT

[jaypo]

Shaq dominated Wallace, Mutombo, and Mourning who won a combined 10 DPOY from 95-06 with part of it during the so-called golden age of centers. Plus those so called amazing centers of the 90's

He couldn't even outrebound Wallace h2h in the playoffs! How does that happen with such a big size advantage in his favour?

Mourning and Mutumbo never bothered anyone elite. Mourning was always a loose screw in the playoffs when the pressure was on. Mutumbo hardy har har, he only played one side of the floor.

DRob and Hakeem....he NEVER dominated these guys before they got injured, so sorry if I find your stats flawed. And post whatever stats you want, but Hakeem won a title matched against Shaq and that has to account for something. He won the scoring title that year and finished ahead of him on the all-D team, so don't make him out to be some wounded animal. Shaq only badmouthed Hakeem when he was 36 and on his last legs in the '99 playoffs. He kept his mouth shut in '95 and laid down in Game 4 waving a white flag.

He did not need to play a deferential role that Shaq had to do vs. the only team (SA) that could stand up to him in his title years. Nor did TD, nor did Mailman. All 3 of these guys have steamrolled past Shaq in the playoffs....and he's always above these guys on all-time lists? LOL. Any prime HOF interior player has had their way with a Shaq led team winning wise unless he could defer to Kobe. It happened in '95, it happened in '97 and '98 and it happened in '99 and '03.

Steamrolled? You mean like the Lakers steamrolled thru the Western Conference for 4 out of 5 years? And in all 4 years, TD was in the Western conference. And 1 of those years, he got his HOF azz swept by the Lakers. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that Shaq has gotten thru Duncan more times than Duncan has gotten thru Shaq. Bring on the excuses!

And, and one more thing, Fusheng. Shaq was the Most. Dominant. Ever!!!!

[34Dayz]

DRob and Hakeem....he NEVER dominated these guys before they got injured, so sorry if I find your stats flawed. And post whatever stats you want, but Hakeem won a title matched against Shaq and that has to account for something. Shaq only badmouthed Hakeem when he was 36 and on his last legs in the '99 playoffs. He kept his mouth shut in '95 and waved the white flag.

He did not need to play a deferential role that Shaq had to do vs. the only team (SA) that could stand up to him in his title years. Nor did TD, nor did Mailman. All 3 of these guys have steamrolled past Shaq in the playoffs....and he's always above these guys on all-time lists? LOL. Any prime HOF interior player has had their way with a Shaq led team winning wise unless he could defer to Kobe. It happened in '95, it happened in '97 and '98 and it happened in '99 and '03.

Shaq in his first 3 seasons was already outplaying DRob and was already the best PS performer between the two. So Shaq in his 1st 3 years was better then Peak/Prime DRob.

Basketball is a "team game" The "Rockets" were a better team then The "Magic" in 95, lol Shaq waved a white flag in 95? He actually waved one of the greatest Final performnces of all time averaging 28/13/4/2.5 on 60% shooting with 11.5ppg in 4th Quarter scoring over that series. If his supporting cast outside of Penny hadnt played like garbage that entire series and Nick Scruberson hadnt chocked pathetically that series could have easily gone 6,7 games and at worst had a decent chance at winning the series. Outside of Penny Hakeem had the better supporting Cast so with him being unable to even outplay Drexler I dont think the Magic would have been able to win the series.

So by his 3rd Season he was already clearly better then Peak DRob and had a VERY strong argument that he was better then Peak Hakeem, and if he wasn the difference between the two was so small it couldnt be measured.

Shaq closed out an Equal amount if not more series from 00-03 and had just as many clutch performances as his Star Wing counter-part. SA had very good post defense and very weak perimeter defense you may call it (deferring) that he let Kobe be the closer for those series but I personally call it being a smart/intelligent basketball player. Even allowing Kobe to be the closer in the SA series he was still almost always averaging 25-30ppg with 13 boards 3-5 assists and blocks per game so he was still always arguably the best/most valuable player in those series especially considering he was the main focus of SA's defense and had to score and dominate over one of the best defensive post tandems in the history of the league.

Shaq "steam rolled" Duncan more then once in the playoffs despite him having DRob and a great supporting cast + later on he beat him even with 2 all-stars in Ginobili / Parker who coincidentally won a FMVP over Duncan in one of their title years.

Just realize that 3rd Year Shaq was already on par or better then Peak Hakeem. It may be hard for you to swallow but the facts speak for themselves.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Were not talking about the 90's were talking about "the legendary mythological PRIME SHAQ" here


Half those guys you named were ether past their prime or retired by the time 00-02 rolled around.

Remember Were just talking about this period 00-02 one people call the GOAT peak so yao and dwight dont count.

All those other guys either sucked or well old and washed up at that point.(sabonis,divac,Deke, smits etc)

Prime Shaq's domination of his cupcake opponents from 99-02 compared to the 90s Golden Age of center play is like being Wladimir Klitschko the heavyweight champ now, who really gave a damned about any of the guys he's beaten...compared to when Ali was heavyweight champion in the 70s and going toe to toe with the true greats of the sport and winning titles.

A frontcourt of Duncan and Drob is "cupcake". Deke, the DPOY was "cupcake". Ben Wallace is a "cupcake". Right. I'm sure you could post up prime Russell, right Fusheng??

I don't know why you even mention Duncan 'n DRob here because he never dominated them, he deferred to Kobe when they won in '01 and '02, whereas TD drove the ball right down the Lakers' throats in '99 and '03.

[jaypo]

Now you're resorting to the "Shaq sucked in that series and TD whooped his butt". Well, Duncan was covered by AC Green, Horry, and Samaki Walker. Shaq didn't guard him. He was a PF.

And the numbers say that Shaq did just fine against them.

Try again.

Oh, and by the way:

Shaquile Rashaun Oneal- THE MOST DOMINANT EVER.

[34Dayz]

The Spurs were a much better team in 99 so obviously they were gonna win, no performance by Shaq or any other ATG would have changed the outcome.

in 03 Shaq was dealing with an injury and both him and Kobe played sub-par on the road vs SA. Still it took Duncan at his absolute peak and a Shaq injury for him to finally get past the Lakers in the early 00's and it still took him 6 Games.

Shaq was still the best player on the court in maybe every series vs the Spurs except arguably 03 (when he was injured) and despite injury he still averaged 25/13/4/4 60%FG and many times he was clearly the best player on the court.

He had absolutely ridiculously MDE games like in G4 : 30 Points, 17 Rebounds (10 offensive), 5Assists, 4Blocks, 2 Steals, 17-23 from the Free Throw Line... ridiculous.

or G3 : 22/16/ 8 Assists / 3 Blocks

G1 : 24/21/3/4
G6 : 31/10/3/3

The other two games were his least spectacular in those series but he still averaged (combined) (those 2 games) 24/11/2/2 with 5 offensive board per game.

And he didn't "defer to Kobe" in 01 and 02 vs SA he allowed Kobe to be the closer which was pretty intelligent consider SA had very good post defense but very poor perimeter defense.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Now you're resorting to the "Shaq sucked in that series and TD whooped his butt". Well, Duncan was covered by AC Green, Horry, and Samaki Walker. Shaq didn't guard him. He was a PF.

And the numbers say that Shaq did just fine against them.

Try again.

Oh, and by the way:

Shaquile Rashaun Oneal- THE MOST DOMINANT EVER.

No Jaypo.....no one said Shaq "sucked" you're just being too overemotional in your defence of your hero and making things up that were never said.

Shaq didn't guard him, you say what am I seeing at 7:30 and beyond of this video when LA tried to put him on TD in the 4th quarter in Game 6?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ

I know I'm not seeing TD deferring to anyone and that guy doesn't look like Walker or Green!

[34Dayz]

Shaq put up 31/10/3/3 on 62% shooting in G6... I guess he shouldn't have deferred so much?

And wow an injured Shaq wasn't able to shutdown Peak Tim Duncan how shocking.

I think what you should be more concerned with is How Shaq was able to Dominate Duncan/Drob even while past his prime and suffering from an injury.

Fact : Shaq outplayed Duncan H2H in the 4-5 times they met and he significantly outplayed Duncan in 04 even when way past his Prime.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

in 03 Shaq was dealing with an injury and both him and Kobe played sub-par on the road vs SA. Still it took Duncan at his absolute peak and a Shaq injury for him to finally get past the Lakers in the early 00's and it still took him 6 Games.

Oh please. He had a chance to get that injury looked after in the 2002 offseason....instead he takes company time (i.e: a large chunk of the 2002-2003 season) to get it looked at.

He doesn't deserve any credit for what he allegedly played through in 2003 given he was too lazy in the first place to get it looked at when he had the time on hand.

[34Dayz]

Why cant you just accept that 90% of the times Duncan and Shaq went H2H Shaq outplayed him, including the 3-5 times they met up in the post season from 00 onwards despite the fact that he had an elite post defender in DRob to use against Shaq.

Why is averaging 25-30ppg playing second fiddle on offense, why are you such a mindless hater?

Shaq was clearly the better player in the early 00's and in 99 aswell everyone back then agreed on this. There was a long period of time in the early 00's where people would debate who was better between Duncan and KG I know that Shaq would never have been compared to KG ever in that time period.

[34Dayz]

in 03 Shaq was dealing with an injury and both him and Kobe played sub-par on the road vs SA. Still it took Duncan at his absolute peak and a Shaq injury for him to finally get past the Lakers in the early 00's and it still took him 6 Games.

Oh please. He had a chance to get that injury looked after in the 2002 offseason....instead he takes company time (i.e: a large chunk of the 2002-2003 season) to get it looked at.

He doesn't deserve any credit for what he allegedly played through in 2003 given he was too lazy in the first place to get it looked at when he had the time on hand.

What difference do the circumstances make? The fact is that he was injured and still managed to outshine Duncan in a few of those games and take him and the Spurs to 6 games.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Why cant you just accept that 90% of the times Duncan and Shaq went H2H Shaq outplayed him, including the 3-5 times they met up in the post season from 00 onwards despite the fact that he had an elite post defender in DRob to use against Shaq.
Why is averaging 25-30ppg playing second fiddle on offense, why are you such a mindless hater?

Shaq was clearly the better player in the early 00's and in 99 aswell everyone back then agreed on this. There was a long period of time in the early 00's where people would debate who was better between Duncan and KG I know that Shaq would never have been compared to KG ever in that time period.

But how can I accept something that never happened in the first place?

[NYK 455]

Similar stats? Not even close. Like saying Shaq has similar stats to Amare only the gap between Wilt and Shaq is larger.

I meant to add, after adjusting for pace.

That IS after adjusting for pace and era.

Maybe pace, but certainly not taking into account the wide gap in level of play between the two eras.

And Adjusting for pace, I'm pretty sure Shaq is equal or better at scoring the ball, maybe not rebounding the ball, but back then, Elgin Baylor averaged 18-19 boards a few seasons, so that doesn't mean much anyway.

[34Dayz]

But how can I accept something that never happened in the first place?

Just because you "pretend" something didn't happen doesn't change the fact that it actually did.

Stop living in your fantasy world.

I'll find the H2H statistics for you but im sure you'll find some other way to say Shaq doesn't deserve credit.

[LALegend]

Haven't really been following the thread, but I don't think he has a case for #2. However, I definitely think Shaq should be ranked higher than Wilt, who I think is the most overrated GOAT level player. Aside from statistical dominance (in a weak era), what did he do? The legend of Wilt is greater than the actual product.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

But how can I accept something that never happened in the first place?

Just because you "pretend" something didn't happen doesn't change the fact that it actually did.

Stop living in your fantasy world.

I'll find the H2H statistics for you but im sure you'll find some other way to say Shaq doesn't deserve credit.

So you admit to making such a statement without having the evidence on hand to back it up? Shaq dominated the TD/Spurs matchups 90% of the time according to you.

Yes you do that, don't be surprised if you find it to be a frustrating search.

I do guarantee you this: There is absolutely no point where Shaq can claim he had a playoff moment vs the Spurs as impressive as TD in either the 99 or 03 series vs. LA

[JerkyWay]

Prime/peak-wise? Sure.
Career-wise? No.

[jaypo]

Fusheng- so you showing me a few trips down the court is supposed to equal TD beating Shaq head to head? Right. You know, there was a reason that TD shined vs. the Lakers, and it wasn't because TD outplayed Shaq. This entire argument tells me that you don't know squat about the subject you've been typing about for days. Those numbers show me that TD was able to outplay AC Green (in his 40's!!). Robert Horry. Slava Medvedenko. Samaki Walker. Wanna know why? He was playing PF!! Robinson was playing Center along with Rose, KWill, Rasho, etc. And in the years that Duncan got thru the Lakers, it just showed that a 7 ft Duncan was able to outplay 6'10 Horry close to the same level that Shaq was able to outplay DRob who was a tad bit better than Horry.

BTW- Shaq--- MOST DOMINANTE EVER!!!

[Gongxi]

Are you basketball observer or a Shaq cheerleader, jaypo?

[jaypo]

Are you basketball observer or a Shaq cheerleader, jaypo?

A little of both! (I'm just trying to get at Fusheng a little bit!)

I started watching the NBA in 79 when my dad brought me to a N.O. Jazz game and I got to see Piston Pete. When the Jazz left N.O, he started following the Celts, and I used to watch the games with him. I then followed MJ when he came into the league, and when Shaq started at LSU (which is where my wife went to college- we lived there for a few years), even though I watched him in the McD's All American game and became a fan, I followed his career. I liked his personality (I've seen him in person a few times), and I enjoyed his game. So I'm a fan.

That's my story.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Fusheng- so you showing me a few trips down the court is supposed to equal TD beating Shaq head to head? Right. You know, there was a reason that TD shined vs. the Lakers, and it wasn't because TD outplayed Shaq. This entire argument tells me that you don't know squat about the subject you've been typing about for days. Those numbers show me that TD was able to outplay AC Green (in his 40's!!). Robert Horry. Slava Medvedenko. Samaki Walker.

Sigh, in another words you can't admit you were wrong. Shaq DID guard TD in that series when you said he DIDN'T.

On one play he guards TD, TD shoots and misses and Shaq can be seen jogging in towards the offensive end without even bothering to attempt to secure the rebound, whereas TD follows up his miss for an easy two.

He shined vs. the Lakers because he was the only franchise calibre interior player in the league that could outproduce Shaq in a series. Not those aging creampuffs Shaq bullied 99-02.