Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[YogiStewart]

So out of the 450 NBA players how many have got work in Europe yet? 10$, 20%, 30% of the players?

10% max.

the best part? guys like Ron Artest are happy to make $2500/month in Europe. Now they want to negotiate w/the NBA for a big piece of the pie?

the owners, by right, should hold all the cards. They take the risks, they manage the business, they usually own an arena or coordinate/finance building an arena. when you take a risk as an owner, by right, you should stand to make good money off your investment.

Stern knows that the players will start to cry come Sept/October. Most of the players won't be playing overseas and suck at managing their assets. Hence, the lack of urgency for resuming talks.

[from24ft]

The more the NBA restricts how much their players make the more competitive power they give to the international basketball leagues.


This is not something that will happen overnight. However, the cheaper the NBA is with their purse strings, the more power competing world leagues have. Young players from international markets will choose the NBA less often.


As these rookie contracts stifle top notch talent like Rose and LBJ. It is foreseeable that in the future, such players will bolt the league for pastures that are less restrictive to their earnings. The NBA is only hurting itself in the long run. The US$ is loosing bargaining power every day. Consumers are not paying Comcast and cable providers what they once were willing to pay as economic times are capping disposable incomes.


This greed can very well come home to roost and be the bane of Stern and the NBA. The only reason the league has the world spotlight, is because it is the best. All Stern is doing, by cutting the pie is making his talent and the NBA's position more attainable by other leagues. The salaries the league paid, made sure we had the best talent. Now that world currencies are overtaking the dollar, the league is not as attractive. In fact a crappy owner driven CBA will further erode that attractiveness.

We may never see another Yao with the way things are going. It may not make any economic sense for a players of such calibre to leave China. This posturing by the league, WILL HAVE AN IMPACT on OVERALL TALENT. (that is the price of greed)



EDIT: In fact the best thing young players like Griffin, Rose and LBJ can do, is to go to other leagues and build them up so that future basketball prodigies have more competition for their services, and that the NBA does not hold a monopoly on top notch talent. It would be in the interest of the PA to grow their competition. New phenoms like Griffin, Rose and LBJ can make MUCH MORE MONEY than what the league caps them at. Unfortunately, this means foresight, and venturing into waters beyond your comfort... at the same time they can be pioneers of the freedom that these players should have, paving the way for generations of balers that will follow them.

EDIT2: If those three players committed to the eurolegue long term, the NBA would be in trouble. It would seriously erode the NBA's brand. (fight the power - it is the duty of the righteous)

[RapTelligence]

So out of the 450 NBA players how many have got work in Europe yet? 10$, 20%, 30% of the players?

10% max.

the best part? guys like Ron Artest are happy to make $2500/month in Europe. Now they want to negotiate w/the NBA for a big piece of the pie?

the owners, by right, should hold all the cards. They take the risks, they manage the business, they usually own an arena or coordinate/finance building an arena. when you take a risk as an owner, by right, you should stand to make good money off your investment.

Stern knows that the players will start to cry come Sept/October. Most of the players won't be playing overseas and suck at managing their assets. Hence, the lack of urgency for resuming talks.

I agree. The amount of players who mismanage their assets/finances in the NBA far outnumbers the number of players who manage their finances. Very soon the have nots will be pitched against the haves and the players union will come to the table. It has happened in the past and will happen again. And playing in foriegn leagues to lesson the NBA owners leverage still remains just a pipe dream. No league in the world has the infrastructure nor the fan appetite to grow to the level that would sustain the salaries the current NBA players make. There is very little disposable income to go around these days. The Europeans will spend their money on football (soccer) first before giving BBall a chance.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Raptel, there is a distinction between what from 24ft is saying and the players trying to teach the owners a lesson by playing overseas. The current tactic they are using is definitely designed as bargaining leverage, but it's patently clear that most of the owners aren't in this for the long haul and don't have the long-term success of the NBA in mind. There have already been 2 teams sold (Philly and Atlanta) during the lockout and there are others up for sale and the owners, think OTPP, waiting for the players to cave making their franchises worth more so they can sell the team for more money to an owner who will eventually have to try to cut salaries more to pay for the new valuation. Another lockout in 10 years seems par for the course at this point, even if the owners get what they want.

It won't happen right away, but eventually, as the NBA slashes its salaries, other basketball leaguges are going to start competing for talent with them. They might not be as talented of leagues overall, but they'll be competing for the same salaries. If those leagues grow to the point where other players stay overseas, it might not even hurt the owners' bottom line that much right now, but it definitely hurts their growth potential and it does hurt the product you and I get to watch, even though the differences will be minor at best at first. The owners don't care about that, though, because the bulk of them are in it to own the team for 10-15 years over which they are allowed to write off the purchase price of the team against their taxes (i.e. the whole reason they're paying such high prices in the first place is because they're after that tax writeoff) and milk as much money as they can from the team before passing it off to somebody else who will likely try to do the same thing.

I don't really think the players inherently deserve more money, either, but ownership's continued attempts at idiotproofing the league to the point where every team makes tens of millions every year over and above their big tax writeoffs they paid for when they bought the team are beyond ridiculous. They don't deserve that any more than the players deserve more money. They might succeed in getting their way because they've got more overall money and are more unified, but that doesn't mean the product that you and I both care about is better off because the owners get what they want.

[I_Like_Dirt]

This whole 'let the rich have their money' attitude is actually causing some real problems, and some from among their ranks have been pointing it out for a while. If the owners really are benefitting from their teams through tax breaks and actually making money, as most independant observers seem to believe is the case while the NBA refuses to completely open up its books and explain everything it's asking us to believe based on their word alone, then what really is their problem that they suddenly need to grab for their employees' salaries that hurts the overall potential for growth fo the league?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opini ... ml?_r=2&hp

This article by Warren Buffet gets to the point about how well off a lot of people like the owners are. If they were arguing that they should be making more money because they are lobbying to, or at least in support of, paying more in taxes (I actually wouldn't be surprised to find out that Marc Cuban and Paul Allen at the very least fall into this category) then I'm less concerned. I don't see that being the case here, though. It should also be noted that the numbers Buffet uses would also include a lot of the NBA's players, but the difference there is that they are among the rare few of the wealthier Americans who actually get the bulk of their income through salaries rather than investments and therefore do actually pay taxes on it.

This isn't to say that the owners are doing anything illegal, because they aren't. It's just to point out that all this talk of them deserving it, or that they're not financially well off (and I'm speaking as a group here, because if the idea is that they shouldn't have any risk then they aren't in any sort of competition at all), is pretty ridiculous without any specific numbers to back it up, especially when their income is taxed so much less than the players' and when Forbes has the league already performing as well or better than a lot of other fortune 500 companies and outperforming the entertainment industry on average. Give them more money and they'll be back to ask for more. Keep giving them money and you eventually have problems you didn't foresee down the road. They've found that out across the world with the current state of international economies.

[from24ft]

I would not trust the owners on this issue... They have to be incredibly incompetent not to make money in this corporate environment. The numbers that have been released are operation P/L reports meant to get the fans on their side. They are not proper valuations of the franchises, the sort accountants would demand, this sort of info is not forthcoming for a reason.


As for other leagues surpassing the NBA being a pipe dream. I agree, it once was that. However the moves that Stern is making is making it less so.

European teams have access to huge fan bases, as do Asian markets. Basketball is one of the fastest growing sports amongst the young. The demographics are changing fast. Don't kid yourself that 20,000 fans can't pay the ticket prices that we pay in other parts of the world. Often their markets have larger population densities, and the more Stern cuts the players salaries... the easier it is for another league to take the mantle. The US$ is slipping.


The only reason the world watches us, is because we are the BEST. To be the best you need to pay the best salaries. Don't kid yourself thinking that the Euroleague wants to be second fiddle to the NBA, they don't and have greater aspirations than many give them credit for. All it would take is stealing away a few young players from the NBA and the world will start questioning who has the best talent.


EDIT: BTW all the losses incurred during the lockout will be written off from the more advantageous CBA that is to come. The only suckers in this money play are the FANS. If you think the owners have your best interest at heart, you are delusional.

EDIT2: The NBA means nothing without the players. You guys are more than happy watching your NT teams and the Olympics, the reason is simply that you want to see the best talent. It doesn't mater under what formalities these players play, they will always earn money and viewers due to the fact that they are the best.

EDIT3: Keep in mind, that the Euroleague plays very few games. When you figure out how much a contract is worth per games played they are quite competitive. If the Euroleague added more games, they also would raise their revenues. The pay differences are not as far off as we think, which makes you wonder if they can afford such contracts with so many fewer revenue opportunities, why can't the NBA? Stern is only giving power to his competition with his greed. (The NBA player plays: preseason, 82 games, post season - all revenue opportunities for his club. This is one hell of a work schedule for that contract. Euroleague players have it much, much easier.)

[from24ft]

In November of 2008 Congress passed a stimulus plan that allows Corporations to write off 100% of Capital Investment in the 1st year. This is true for a dry cleaner as it is for an electric company or an NBA franchise. If in 2009 and 2010, you did not take advantage of this great opportunity as a CEO of your corp than you are an idiot. It would make little sense to have massive profits that you would have to pay taxes on. Instead, you take that revenue and funnel it into your asset base, even risking operational loss for the year. This is the time to get HD cameras, new scoreboards, improve the venue acquire further assets.

So to me the 22 of 28 showing loss, is just good accounting. This is the time to spend your money.


I understand that some of you are on the owners side. I find this quite puzzling, it is the owners that have locked you out. There has been no consideration of you fans, and they are counting on your withdrawal symptoms to put pressure on the PA to come to a deal. Some of it maybe just about being the devils advocate (and that certainly par for the course on a forum). Than again, I don't understand how a logical person can not see that Republicans want to rape the common man, and they get a good share of the vote down south. From living my life, I have figured out that if I oppress and abuse 100 people, 33 of them will thank me for it and have a higher admiration and respect for my stature. I had an interesting debate on one of my political forums on this subject, and the final reply from my target was, "I don't need no fancy learning to know who is right and who is wrong" at that point I ended the debate and walked away from my computer with a smile.


EDIT: BTW give me any franchise, (except the lakers - as that would be challenging) and I can put a loss on the books and make the owners insane money by funnelling it into assets. If the union is after you for a new bargaining agreement, even better to use this tactic.

EDIT2: I will also postulate. That the players who earn 57% of the revenues give more money to charity proportionally of those revenues than the franchises under the NBA. In fact, I am fairly certain that the numbers are not even close to comparable. When it comes to good will, and love for the fans, I give a serious edge to the players than I do to the owners. Think of the charity of the players, and than look back at the photo ops of the NBA teams, giving a measly 60K while holding a massive cheque for a photo opp. The good will is not even close.

[OAKLEY_2]

Sir Yogi Moderator here is a better signature for ya:

"IQ tests assume that intelligence is one thing that can be easily measured and put on a scale, rather than a variety of abilities. They also assume intelligence is fixed and permanent. However, psychologists cannot agree whether there is one thing that can be called intelligence, or whether it is fixed, let alone meaningfully measure "it." Studies have shown that IQ scores can be changed by training, nutrition, or simply by having more friendly people administer the test. In reality, IQ tests are nothing more than a type of achievement test which primarily measures knowledge of standard English and exposure to the cultural experiences of middle class whites.

While our understanding of the brain and how people learn and think has progressed enormously, tests have remained the same. Behaviorism assumed that knowledge could be broken into separate bits and that people learned by passively absorbing these bits. Today, cognitive and developmental psychologists understand that knowledge is not separable bits and that people (including children) learn by connecting what they already know with what they are trying to learn. If they cannot actively make meaning out of what they are doing, they do not learn or remember. But most standardized tests do not incorporate the modern theories and are still based on recall of isolated facts and narrow skills."

The term Basketball IQ added to "is off the charts" could be a turn of phrase based on a flawed understanding of what some people would like to believe is intelligence.

[from24ft]

Oakley_2,

The best way to look at IQ tests, and we are going quite off topic here, is to give one to your dog... and see how well he does. Give one written in English to a PHD from China who does not speak the language.

At some point, you have to come to terms that the delivery of the test is a flaw itself. So if your grasp of the language is sub par, you will not score well on the test. In fact it goes much further and cultural bias and upbringing become a hindrance as well. Since often the terms used may never enter the vocabulary of a cultural distinct group even if English is their main language.


...but above all, the test was established to measure mental retardation. It was never meant to see who is a genius, its basic premise was to see the flaws in learning that the mentally challenged possessed and correct and amend those aspects through education.

If you have time to kill, I suggest you watch the following documentaries. I promise that these will make you laugh and think harder about what IQ is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggur-Ca2nzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndW5uiwe ... re=related

(these have more parts to them, but I think we all understand youtube and I will not post all the segments.)


Just to keep this on topic, I think Stern has a high IQ, that is why I have very little trust or empathy for him. I think players spend their time honing their physical skills, while the owners hone their mental skills. Which is why I respect and trust the players the most in this battle of words.

[whoknows]

...Than again, I don't understand how a logical person can not see that Republicans want to rape the common man, and they get a good share of the vote down south....

You are an incurable socialist my friend...

If real world (aka nature) would work under socialist ideas, the "survival of the fittest" would be in reverse and forest would be full of limpy fat deers...

[Fairview4Life]

...Than again, I don't understand how a logical person can not see that Republicans want to rape the common man, and they get a good share of the vote down south....

You are an incurable socialist my friend... :lol:

If real world (aka nature) would work under socialist ideas, the "survival of the fittest" would be in reverse and forest would be full of limpy fat deers... :roll:

Natural selection in biology is not analogous to right wing political philosophy. Nor should anyone want it to be. I also have no idea why you'd want anyone to live in anarchy.

[whoknows]

...Than again, I don't understand how a logical person can not see that Republicans want to rape the common man, and they get a good share of the vote down south....

You are an incurable socialist my friend...

If real world (aka nature) would work under socialist ideas, the "survival of the fittest" would be in reverse and forest would be full of limpy fat deers...

Natural selection in biology is not analogous to right wing political philosophy. Nor should anyone want it to be. I also have no idea why you'd want anyone to live in anarchy.

there is no anarchy in the forest nor should it be in our society. And because someone with common sense does not agree with socialist/communist utopia, it does not mean that person is right wing...

[Fairview4Life]

Natural selection in biology is not analogous to right wing political philosophy. Nor should anyone want it to be. I also have no idea why you'd want anyone to live in anarchy.

there is no anarchy in the forest nor should it be in our society. And because someone with common sense does not agree with socialist/communist utopia, it does not mean that person is right wing...

The forest is anarchy. There is a complete lack of authority. That's a pretty standard definition of anarchy. Animals can do whatever the **** they want in the forest. That's anarchy. Your common sense line is pretty funny though.

[Schad]

And because someone with common sense does not agree with socialist/communist utopia, it does not mean that person is right wing...

Using the words "socialist/communist utopia" does, though.

Also, Thomas Hobbes wants to have a word with you about the no-anarchy-in-nature thing.

[DG88]

Imo the PA sort of put themselves in this position by rejecting the flex cap. Yes this was the owners proposal but it was a start none the less. If the PA took that proposal and made adjustments to it and gave it back to the owners then we'd have some go old negotiation until a compromise is found. By rejecting the proposal and not even giving the owners their own they've hurt the bargaining and give the owners more leverage as the days get closer to September. Unless the PA comes out with a proposal things won't happen.

[waltthewiz]

45 million isn't that bad? I mean, the NHL makes it work. And in a way I think the owners' deal makes good business sense. The NBA wants to make their franchise system easy to run and profitable so rich dudes can buy into it. Hockey and Basketball teams can be both run out of the same facility. So, the NBA needs to make a franchise cost roughly as much as an NHL franchise. Now you have something akin to--pardon my analogy here--the Tim Hortons/Wendy's hybrid restaurants. Boom. Big Money for the NBA.

[from24ft]

...Than again, I don't understand how a logical person can not see that Republicans want to rape the common man, and they get a good share of the vote down south....

You are an incurable socialist my friend...

If real world (aka nature) would work under socialist ideas, the "survival of the fittest" would be in reverse and forest would be full of limpy fat deers...

...and proud of it! I like my health care, I like my programs for the poor, I like my teachers to be paid well and I despise elitism and corporate oppression. I feel my vote is equal to that of a mentally challanged individual, a drunkard begging for coins on the side of the street or prostitute high on crack. I don't think I am superior in any way shape or form in terms of this experience we call life. I am more than happy to abide by our collective rules.


I don't think you understand the forest that well my friend. A wolf pack has a social order to it, as do ants and as do bees. At some point 2 cells realized that if they worked together they would outcompete single cell organisms... and the race was on. (in fact, when you look at your body, it is made up of countless cells that are socialized AND GOVERNED... the ones that grow independent of the others we call `cancer`)


You are absolutely right, I don't understand libertarianism and the crock that comes from our neighbours to the south. It's a teenagers pipe dream. I think its a fancy brain wash strategy employed by FOX to loot the people of their assets and give it to the corporates. I feel Milton Friedman was a loon, a smart loon, but when any of his policies were put into play they were a total disaster.

Believe it or not we are social. It feels good to share, I get high from it. I like doing my volunteer work, I like giving the benefit of the doubt to people others walk past. It may be for very selfish reasons, but just the same my brain has evolved to be social. I enjoy music and dance and interaction. I can't stand being around people that think EXACTLY like me. So, to me, reaching out and giving a hand up is a way of life.

I also think team sports are the ultimate example of where socialism can get you. Take Germany and France for instance, the creditor nations of Europe, their socialism is far greater than anything we have in Canada. During the recession, Markel created a program that instead of laying off factory workers, the companies could apply for the government subsides to help pay their workers salaries. So 60% by the company, 40% by the government. As a result, the infrastructure in Germany is still in tact and the minute the skies cleared for them they were churning along as if nothing had touched them.

Also in Germany, Pizza Hut, can afford to give dental to their employees. Imagine that, and they are still in business. If you invest in your people, you always win!



Look with this libertarian bullcrap has done to our neighbour to the south. Toothless rednecks are setting their economic policy. Look at the home schooled idiots that are rising to power down south, its beyond funny. They are gutting their schools and letting their billionaires enjoy record profits. Survival of the fittest my ass, more like survival of the leaches and parasites. Geithner stepped in to protect his banker buddies and even Obama admin does not want to do the tango with the bankesters.


Long live evolution, which moved us towards socialism, instead of bashing each others brains in for the woman you coveted.

EDIT: It all started with anarchy, non-anarchy is progress... there is a reason we are not living in caves and have learned to split the atom. There is nothing bad about order, or government. It is a tool just like a gun, it can be used for good or it can be used for bad. In the US, the government is used by the corporations to ensure their racket, the people need to take it back - not destroy it!. The corps, want to destroy the government, because that is the only thing that stands between their control and the peoples control of them. The minute they succeed, your are just a DNA bag for them, no rights, no liberties, they will roll over you because there will not be a collective to protect you from them. The fight is over the government, it always has been, the rich don't want a government because without one they are the ones in charge. They are the barons, the Aristocrats, and you are the feudal peasant that must do their bidding. Don't let them fool you into thinking that you will be freer if they take your government away, when they walk they step on people, you will get trampled.

EDIT2: Watch this documentary: Hot Coffee - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1445203/, its very thought provoking.

[from24ft]

LOL,

Pay out like the NHL, but take in like the NBA. A nice racket Stern.


When he said he knew where the bodies were hidden, I don’t think he was speaking figuratively, I actually think he is talking about bodies.

[OAKLEY_2]

24ft. Loved your rant. Agree with most of it. The thing I hope though is we move away from the smugness of left rararara vs right rararara. Because we will always need a balance. I think "socialism" is one of those mantra words that has been repeated often by figures in authority in a derisive way so it has gained a negative connotation. Social democracy on the other hand is a reality for many countries and has proven to work. People who talk about "socialism" as a failed experiment are mixing their apples with their oranges. I would rank Holland and Denmark and Germany and Sweden and Norway as quite successful social democracies. Norway has a higher per capita GDP than both Canada and the United States. Hard to get hung up on ideology when you look at the hard facts. To me this is the biggest fear of some of the monied elites. That some entity comes along with massive credibility and redistributes not only the wealth but the power that comes with it. Essentially we move into a mob like turf battle.

When sport morphed into TV entertainment with marketing driven revenue players became much bigger stakeholders. While they are part of a "union" they are paid much more like junior partners while most of the other workers look like the front line staff. The CBA looks like they are haggling over who gets to keep the tips when what is needed is significant cuts in prices across the board - say 25% and then go to the players and say you got to share in this pain if we are to get more bums in seats. Those that are leveraged to the teeth probably cannot absorb the price cut.

[from24ft]

OAKLEY_2,

I agree with you for the most part, partisan politics is beating the crap out of the USA at the moment. Ever since Reagan struck down the fairness doctrine in 1979, the right wing TV and talk shows have been on a rampage. They no longer need to be truthful or balanced. Thankfully we have regulations in Canada and have not devolved into this rat trap, but Harper has been trying hard to get FOX Canada, or its equivalent here to shore up conservative support US style, he hasn't been successful.

The problem with ignoring this crap is that it derails any meaningful discussions. Look at the drudgereport, even Matt Drudge is ashamed of it and will not give interviews anymore about its fairness. It is well known in the industry that he receives serious kick backs from NewsCorp (Murdoch) to set the agenda.

All I see is racist stories about flash mobs and immigrants. Obama is made to look like a fool for his vacationing, even though GW Bush set the record for most vacation time by any US president and the crippling debt is due to his asinine policies. The other day their lead story was that Obama is using a bus made in Canada. We just dropped 10+ Billion on their goddamn planes, and these FOX scumbags want to make a big deal about a bus made in Canada. Harper should be embarrassed that he coddles up these scumbags, FOX the news model he wants to emulate treat Canada with disdain. Talk to one of these wing nuts for a moment and you will realize they think we are communists and can not even give us credit for our success.

...but FOX does not care about that sort of thing. It’s all about spin. Minorities are portrayed as leeches Gay marriage despised, Muslims hated, workers unions hated, while corporate unions are hailed. (Yes, corporations unionize with other corporations to get regulations that are favourable to their industry, to their protection, to their profit margins.... this is all fine as long as it is not being done by the people.)

So in a way Obama has screwed up royally by being non partisan. Starting from the middle, and compromising to the right. If you start at the middle and compromise to the right, you end up with republican policies, which is what this admin has been relegated to.


...but here is the funniest part of all.

While these jerks, this included the Republican wing, destroy and demolish their own government, their Billionaire buddies kiss the ring fingers of the Chinese government in order to have access to their markets. No one puts in more hurdles, or requires higher kick backs than the Chinese. Their nation is regulated to the extreme, and the protectionism is insane.

While their US government is corporation friendly, putting little to not trade barriers in their way, they assault it like treasonous scum. Than bow and clap like seals to anything the Chinese Government request of them, while dragging their own US government through the mud. It's beyond treasonous.

The point above should tell you everything you need to know about the right wing. They are corrupt to the bone, and need to be put in their place. If you give the Koch brothers too much room they will succeed in destroying the United States of America while making China a Juggernaut.


This right wing crap is another reason why the NBA PA is not getting the support down south that it should be getting. A lot of it is racism... go to any right wing site and start talking NBA and see where it leads, you will be shocked. Stupid people love to hate others, the right wing loves to harness that hate. When you divide the people, you can conquer them.

EDIT: Just wanted to throw in some stats for those who may think that Drudgereport or FOX are credible. At this stage of his presidency, GW Bush had accumulated 180 vacation days, Ronald Reagan 112, Clinton 28, Obama 61. The right wing are playing Americans like fools... they will lie and spin for their political agenda. The problem is that this sort of behaviour often can not be undone. There is a whole new breed of rednecks in America totally oblivious to the fact that the news handed to them is pure fabricated BS designed to coincide with a cleptocratic agenda.

Look at the comments about China vs Georgetown fiasco, so much racism about young kids that are representing their country being thugs, flash mob experts, and other junk... These are their own people but all they can see is the skin colour, these dirt bags are not interested in building bridges in America, uniting its people or telling the truth. Thank god there is nothing as racist as FOX in Canada. You can see by the calibre of our political candidates, that we are miles ahead. Who does the Republican party have that could stand up to Layton, Ignatieff or Harper? A nation that is 10 times our size and all they can trot out is a bunch of nut jobs.