When do you consider to be Kobe's prime: Shaq/Post-Shaq?

[picc]

3rd team is bad when you are perennially all 1st team lol... And 04 was the atrocious finals... I stand by my initial remark that he wasn't as good in 04-05 as he was from 01-03 and 06-08

Why?

He got 3rd team because he went down with an injury for a while, then Lamar went down after he returned, and the playoffs got out of reach so he spent the last part of the season deferring to Caron so he could develop for the next year. It had nothing to do with his actual playing ability. Not to mention the lack of structure and cohesion on the offensive end with the coaching carousel.

From October-his injury and after his recovery, Kobe was as good a player as he's ever been scoring and playmaking wise, and a good deal more athletic than any incarnation afterward. The fact that he used the end of the year to develop Caron at the expense of his own stats is a testament to leadership qualities he had then that people for some reason believe magically manifested on Feb. 1 2008.

Give me pre-injury '05 Kobe on a well-coached team any day of the week, over any but maybe '03.

[Slava]

3rd team is bad when you are perennially all 1st team lol... And 04 was the atrocious finals... I stand by my initial remark that he wasn't as good in 04-05 as he was from 01-03 and 06-08

Yes it is and he even said that it felt like a slap in the face to him, which paved the way for this best season after that.

If I had to pick one season as his best, it'd be the 2005-06 season, he was just insane and at another level to any other NBA player. I can literally count the number of bad games he had in that season on my fingers, very few and the streaks of 40, 50 point games were phenomenal.

If I had to rank his best seasons:

2005-06
2002-03
2007-08
2000-01
2008-09.

[That Nicka]

3rd team is bad when you are perennially all 1st team lol... And 04 was the atrocious finals... I stand by my initial remark that he wasn't as good in 04-05 as he was from 01-03 and 06-08

Why?

He got 3rd team because he went down with an injury for a while, then Lamar went down after he returned, and the playoffs got out of reach so he spent the last part of the season deferring to Caron so he could develop for the next year. It had nothing to do with his actual playing ability. Not to mention the lack of structure and cohesion on the offensive end with the coaching carousel.

From October-his injury and after his recovery, Kobe was as good a player as he's ever been scoring and playmaking wise, and a good deal more athletic than any incarnation afterward. The fact that he used the end of the year to develop Caron at the expense of his own stats is a testament to leadership qualities he had then that people for some reason believe magically manifested on Feb. 1 2008.

Give me pre-injury '05 Kobe on a well-coached team any day of the week, over any but maybe '03.

In 05 he was adjusting to becoming the primary number one option and not having Shaq around. He had a career high in turnovers at over 4 a game and his lowest FG% since his sophomore year at 43.3%... His FT% was lower than usual too. In 04 he also had a pretty low FG% of 43.8 % despite playing with Shaq and Malone and we all know about the terrible Finals...

06-09 He was well used to being the number one option and just did work... 01-03 he was still at his defensive peak and he was more efficient than he was in 04-05... I'm sure it had a lot to do with the trial, the changing of the team, and his weight being up and down (he was skinnier than usual furing the 04 season, and then he bulked up ridiculously during the 05 season), but for I always considered 04 and 05 Kobe a step below 01-03 and 06-09

[picc]

In 05 he was adjusting to becoming the primary number one option and not having Shaq around. He had a career high in turnovers at over 4 a game and his lowest FG% since his sophomore year at 43.3%... His FT% was lower than usual too. In 04 he also had a pretty low FG% of 43.8 % despite playing with Shaq and Malone and we all know about the terrible Finals...

He had a career high in assists that year too, which logically connects as that was the only year he spent in a traditional offense with more ballhandling and PnR responsibility. I'm sure we're both aware that Kobe's passing ability didn't magically improve and nor did his ballhandling magically regress in the span of a few months, it was the nature of the offense and its lack of structure that led to both statistics.

Even with, 4 TOV's a game isn't exactly a drastic increase from the 3 he normally averages. One more errant pass per game hardly means he was less effective as a player, especially as he was dishing out more assists in unison.

FG% wise he shot a couple % points lower than normal, but i'm sure you remember the chaos that was our offense that year and the inordinate (even for Kobe) number of bail-out shots he would take as a result of the lack of offensive cohesion. Despite this, he still had a higher TS% at 56% than most of the years you cited, which also makes sense as that was the last year he had his peak athleticism and could get to the rim and draw fouls.

06-09 He was well used to being the number one option and just did work... 01-03 he was still at his defensive peak and he was more efficient than he was in 04-05... I'm sure it had a lot to do with the trial, the changing of the team, and his weight being up and down (he was skinnier than usual furing the 04 season, and then he bulked up ridiculously during the 05 season), but for I always considered 04 and 05 Kobe a step below 01-03 and 06-09

I don't agree with the notion that he was used to being a #1 option 'here' but not 'there' per say. For one, Kobe spent a good deal of time in 2002-2003 as the #1 option with Shaq out of the lineup, so its not as if he took the floor in October 2005 and found himself in an unfamiliar scenario.

Second, Kobe's mindset has always been that as a #1 option, even when he wasn't and deferred. From the instant the Rudy T. Lakers took the court he was doing everything for that team - encouraging guys when they were playing badly (to the surprise of everyone), organizing workouts with teammates, cutting his shots down when another guy was hot, setting the tone on defense, etc. He had the team just as thick in the playoff mix as they were the next year, and it wasn't blind luck.

The difference between the 2005 and 2006 Lakers cohesion as a unit wasn't Kobe settling into a role he was born comfortable in - it was Phil Jackson on the bench instead of Frank Hamblen and the ghost of Rudy Tomjanovic.

Everything you say about 2004 Kobe is right - nothing about that year was ordinary for him and a bunch of extenuating circumstances make me put that version of him below almost all others. But by the time the 05 season began he was right back to normal and essentially the same player from 2003, only without a consistent coaching staff and an entirely different cast of teammates to familiarize himself with.

Just looking at stats and standings to determine how good or bad a player was is the same thing everyone on the general board does to strip Kobe of any credit he's earned in the finals, or during the 3-peat, or a bunch of other places. Its the same fallacy people make when talking about Kobe's maturation into an mvp quality leader from Jan. 31, 2008 to Feb. 1st, 2008. And its the same one that would lead one to believe Kobe was less a player in 2005 than any other year. Statistics bely circumstance much too often.

[Slava]

The team in 2004-05 essentially gave up in the middle of the season after Rudy T's alcohol issues. Other than Sucky Atkins that team was a rather talented bunch that was always on the cusp of putting together a strong winning streak provided there was some stability behind the scenes.

Odom, Kobe and Butler settled in well and had Rudy started playing Odom as the starting PF instead of SF and gave Butler the chance to start, we could have comfortably made the playoffs. Those teams also had solid wing depth with Jumain Jones, Rush, Deven George Luke and Rush.

We were pretty much hurting with a lack of front court depth and a good mid season trade could have solidified that but the team essentially turned into a circus by the time All Star break rolled in.

I still remember the game against Wizards early that season when Kobe was looking like Magic with like 11 assists in the 1st half.

[Anklebreaker702]

Both. Kobe was amazing while Shaq was here & after his departure. Have to agree with doc on the pre Pau part though.

[LascelleL]

01-08

[Doormatt]

i just really wanna steal Slava's sig right now. and then pretend like he stole it from me.

[Doormatt]

also, i dont really understand how this is a question. he was clearly at his best right before pau arrived and after shaq left. he was carrying such an offensive load that he wasnt the defensive player he was earlier in the decade, but he was pretty clearly on another level than frobe.

[That Nicka]

He had a career high in assists that year too, which logically connects as that was the only year he spent in a traditional offense with more ballhandling and PnR responsibility. I'm sure we're both aware that Kobe's passing ability didn't magically improve and nor did his ballhandling magically regress in the span of a few months, it was the nature of the offense and its lack of structure that led to both statistics.

Even with, 4 TOV's a game isn't exactly a drastic increase from the 3 he normally averages. One more errant pass per game hardly means he was less effective as a player, especially as he was dishing out more assists in unison.

FG% wise he shot a couple % points lower than normal, but i'm sure you remember the chaos that was our offense that year and the inordinate (even for Kobe) number of bail-out shots he would take as a result of the lack of offensive cohesion. Despite this, he still had a higher TS% at 56% than most of the years you cited, which also makes sense as that was the last year he had his peak athleticism and could get to the rim and draw fouls.

I don't agree with the notion that he was used to being a #1 option 'here' but not 'there' per say. For one, Kobe spent a good deal of time in 2002-2003 as the #1 option with Shaq out of the lineup, so its not as if he took the floor in October 2005 and found himself in an unfamiliar scenario.

Second, Kobe's mindset has always been that as a #1 option, even when he wasn't and deferred. From the instant the Rudy T. Lakers took the court he was doing everything for that team - encouraging guys when they were playing badly (to the surprise of everyone), organizing workouts with teammates, cutting his shots down when another guy was hot, setting the tone on defense, etc. He had the team just as thick in the playoff mix as they were the next year, and it wasn't blind luck.

The difference between the 2005 and 2006 Lakers cohesion as a unit wasn't Kobe settling into a role he was born comfortable in - it was Phil Jackson on the bench instead of Frank Hamblen and the ghost of Rudy Tomjanovic.

Everything you say about 2004 Kobe is right - nothing about that year was ordinary for him and a bunch of extenuating circumstances make me put that version of him below almost all others. But by the time the 05 season began he was right back to normal and essentially the same player from 2003, only without a consistent coaching staff and an entirely different cast of teammates to familiarize himself with.

Just looking at stats and standings to determine how good or bad a player was is the same thing everyone on the general board does to strip Kobe of any credit he's earned in the finals, or during the 3-peat, or a bunch of other places. Its the same fallacy people make when talking about Kobe's maturation into an mvp quality leader from Jan. 31, 2008 to Feb. 1st, 2008. And its the same one that would lead one to believe Kobe was less a player in 2005 than any other year. Statistics bely circumstance much too often.

Being the primary number 1 option for an entire season is different than taking on that load for just parts of a season when Shaq is injured. When Shaq was with the Lakers he was always the primary focus of the defense and Kobe did benefit from that.. Even if, at times, Kobe was the focal point of the offense the presence of Shaq still took pressure off Kobe..

So in 2005 Kobe was coming off his worst season in a long time, he added weight, and had new teammates and coaching staff... Not to mention the attention that Shaq drew was taken away... It was a culmination of these things that made Kobe a slightly lesser player that year... And I say that not just looking at stats, but I remember watching that season and thinking Kobe was not at the same level he was on in 03. Obviously voters felt the same way as, in the past 10 seasons, that was the only one that he was not All NBA first team. And it was also the only season he did not make an all defensive team. I know he missed games, but he missed more games in 04 and still made first team and all defense. However, I do believe Kobe was better on both ends in 05 than in 04 however he was not as good as in 03 or 06 and later...

Kobe was still a great player in 05, I just think he was learning how to really be the leader of a team, how to be consistent while being the primary #1 option for an entire season and the primary focus of the defense and not having an all star caliber teammate. Of course he was also adjusting to new teammates and coaching but thats neither here nor there, Kobe as a player did not have the impact on the court in 05 that he did in 03 or 01..

If I were to rank Kobe's seasons it would be something like this:
06
07
08
09
03
01
10
05
02
11
04
00

01 and 03 + 06-10 make up the top half... 04 and 05 and clearly in the bottom half for me... so 04-05 Kobe to me is not as good as 01-03 and 06-10

[cavsfan_osiris]

2005-2006 was Kobe's prime.

[SoundGarden]

good topic and really good arguments.
Here s my ranking for my fav seasons from him
01-02
most underrated year of his career,his mid range game was never better,he still take those silly shots but he created(and abondened the next season)best shot i ve seen him take.When Samaki Walker/Shaq/Slave put up a screen he placed himself right between defender and screener and take the midrange jumpshot it was money nearly all the time.
When Shaq was out he trusted his teammates more than ever he had 9-14-10-10 assist games without Shaq while having post threats(!) like Samaki-Madsen-Slava.
This is also the season where Kobe became the best rebounder for his position.
How is that possible while T-mac averaged nearly 8 rebound per game?
Coz Kobe collected all the game changing/sealing/another shot rebounds.
Other than his tip in vs Warriors back in 98-99 this is where it started for this aspect of his career(which is really underrated i might add)
On top of my head;4th game of the season vs Utah,Christmas game vs Philly,Game winner at Denver in january,at Seattle in february,Game winner at Arco in march,finals preview vs Nets at Jersey(he missed the shot in this one tho)and two more key rebounds at the late game-one resulted with a game winning shot-in playoffs.
Apart from his rebounding he was pretty money all season in clutch other than few games(like last game vs utah that season)but other than creating his own shot he created shots for his teammates in last seconds too.
As far as i can remember he only had one game winning assist in his career before this season(to Shaq vs Kings at Arco back in 99-00)but he added three more of those to his stats(one in playoffs Game 3 at Portland)
He shot the ball extremely well all season inside the three point line while being double teamed constantly.
Only missing aspect of his game was three point shot and he corrected that the next season.
Overall 9/10

04-05
Im just going to put up some interesting numbers from the games i ve seen.
2004-11-03 vs Jazz Kobe had 1 assist his teammates shot 1-19 on Kobe passes.
2004-11-21 vs Bulls Kobe had 7 assists his teammates shot 7-22 on Kobe passes.
2004-11-30 vs Bucks Kobe had 10 assists his teammates shot 10-34 on Kobe passes.
2004-12-03 vs Warriors Kobe had 10 assists his teammates shot 10-31 on Kobe passes.
and list goes on like this(i have all the games im providing stats for i can edit them if someone wants to see a confirmation)
Watch some Lebron/Mj games from their career high in assist seasons you ll see their teammates shooting well over %40 on their stars passes(Of 6 Lebron game and 4 Mj game from their respective seasons i ve seen that was the case)
Chucky Atkins shot well over %40 from three with Kobe in the line-up,without Kobe he was pathetic.
Kobe in early season was on pace to break Nba record for most turnovers in single season,his playmaking was flashy like it was on high school that is one of the reasons why his turnovers was way up but you guys also remember that he was playing with Chris-butterfinger-Mihm.
He was the best perimiter defender that season(at least before his injury)he locked up Redd so badly in both meetings(and had a game winning block in one of those games).
He was averaging 29-7-7 before his injuries.
One last anectode about the Lakers team that season;
Lakers plays the Knicks at the Msg Kobe has the game tying three pointer for OT.
12.1 left in the OT Lakers are down 117-115 but they have the ball,Kobe has the ball with 9.9 left in the clock Knicks foul him(they had one foul to give).Lakers gives the ball to Kobe again he starts to penetrating Knicks triple team him Kobe finds open Luke Walton just under the basket with one second left in the clock.
Guess what happens?
Luke instead of taking open 4 footer gives the ball back to Kobe as the buzzer sounds...
Overall 9/10

06-07
Hands down best year of his career.
Quite probably the best scoring sequence ever after the all star break.
Efficiency up,assists up,better defense just brilliant.
Overall 10/10

08-09
Another brilliant season from Kobe,you all know it so i dont want to waste my time with detailed analyze.
Overall 10/10

Other seasons that arent my favs;
00-01-9/10 He was really selfish in the regular season thats why a point gets dropped other wise his performance was brilliant both in RS and in POs.
02-03-10/10
03-04-8/10 This was his best season in clutch he only missed two shots in the games i ve seen(and believe me ive seen plenty)but he corrected himself in OT in both of those games(vs Bucks and vs Blazers)other than game winning/buzzer beating shots all season he had 7 game sealing buckets as well.If it wasnt for trials&drama off court i believe this season was going to be his peak.
05-06-10/10 Not my fav season but still lots of fun to watch,only bad thing was his defense.starting with this season he got beat regularly on back door cuts.
07-08-10/10 WC playoffs was just legendary,dont let bad finals performance by Lakers spoil that.
09-10-9/10
10-11-8/10 Disappointing if it wasnt for his play in January this would ve been 7.

ps.Forgive me for poor grammar english isnt my native language(im from turkey and im dreaming the moment Kobe says 'yes' to the offer by Beşiktaş )

[Mamba Venom]

Kobe has the longest prime of any player in NBA history not named Jordan or Kareem.

Prime 2000-2013. He held back to appease the Deasel. He averaged 45 for a month way back then. He could do it back then, he can do it this season.

[That Nicka]

Over Labor day weekend Star Wars was on Spike tv non stop and I watched them whenever I could when I was at home with nothing else to do... Kobe's career reminds me of a Jedi lol...

in 97 and 98 he was a Youngling, 99 and 00 he was a Padawan...

01-05 he was a Jedi knight but not yet a Jedi master.. During this time he was at his athletic peak and at his best defensively, but he was still a little raw.. Sometimes he overexerted himself... Sometimes he tried to take over when it wasnt it the teams best interest.. He was essentially ALWAYS in attack mode. Sometimes it was definitely in our benefit, but he did not have the understanding of the game that he had from 06-10 when he was a Jedi master...

Dont get me wrong he did have reason to be as aggressive as he was, even back then he was absolutely lethal and maybe (probably) the most talented player in the league.. Kobe was the Anakin Skywalker of Padawans.. Before he was even a Jedi Knight he was better than most of those that came before him, and had all of the potential in the world.. He didnt want to be held back etc, but he just wasnt ready yet imo


/nerd

[Ken North]

I think I like to define prime a bit more broadly than this. In my eyes, this season is the first where I've actually had the feeling of Kobe being "past his prime." And he was damn good this season too, though.

[ROballer]

Im just going to put up some interesting numbers from the games i ve seen.
2004-11-03 vs Jazz Kobe had 1 assist his teammates shot 1-19 on Kobe passes.
2004-11-21 vs Bulls Kobe had 7 assists his teammates shot 7-22 on Kobe passes.
2004-11-30 vs Bucks Kobe had 10 assists his teammates shot 10-34 on Kobe passes.
2004-12-03 vs Warriors Kobe had 10 assists his teammates shot 10-31 on Kobe passes.
and list goes on like this(i have all the games im providing stats for i can edit them if someone wants to see a confirmation)

Yes please..can you send me a complete list via PM?
I'm having an argument with somebody regarding this issue and I could use those stats

[picc]

Am I the only one who wasn't impressed by the 06-07 season?

Ok, not "not impressed", but to me that was a very underwhelming season particularly because of the playoffs. We'd all seen Kobe's scoring binges the year before, so that didn't really surprise anyone.

He was much too jumpshot reliant, and it was the first year he had a significant slip in athleticism (knee surgery), which obviously had something to do with it. His scoring tirades were all jumpers, and in the meantime i'd worry what we'd do when his jumpers stopped falling. We found out in the playoffs.

There, the team ball and focused leadership he'd displayed all year just went out the window. He REFUSED to drive to the basket even though the one game we won was because of his penetration. He shot miserably in the 4th quarters and froze Lamar and Luke out, while they were actually contributing. Hands down the worst playoffs i've seen out of Bryant in his prime.

We weren't going to win that series, but I would argue he shot us out of that one more than he did vs Detroit. I'd never been more disappointed in how he played, individually. Not against Detroit, not against Boston, nobody.

IMO his 08 season was much more impressive. Even 09 is arguable.

[picc]

So in 2005 Kobe was coming off his worst season in a long time, he added weight, and had new teammates and coaching staff... Not to mention the attention that Shaq drew was taken away... It was a culmination of these things that made Kobe a slightly lesser player that year... And I say that not just looking at stats, but I remember watching that season and thinking Kobe was not at the same level he was on in 03. Obviously voters felt the same way as, in the past 10 seasons, that was the only one that he was not All NBA first team. And it was also the only season he did not make an all defensive team. I know he missed games, but he missed more games in 04 and still made first team and all defense. However, I do believe Kobe was better on both ends in 05 than in 04 however he was not as good as in 03 or 06 and later..

I think you are underestimating the impact circumstance has on your ability to perform as a player. Kobe's skills didn't erode from 2003 and then resurface in 2006. It just doesn't work like that. Starting the season he was as close to his three-peat defensive level as he's been since, because he still had his prime athleticism. Offensively he had an entirely new set of teammates with no offensive structure and a confused coach.

You really think that 03 or 06 Kobe is a drastically different person who could be plugged into that situation and average 35/5/5 on 45%, but the same person a year earlier/later can't?

His all NBA team selection slip isn't a surprise if you remember the 2nd half of the season, after the injuries mounted and the entire team essentially quit. Kobe didn't quite throw in the towel, but he was clearly trying to give more responsibility to Caron to prepare him for a bigger role on the team the next year, and I remember him saying as much. There's no reason for Kobe to make 1st team on a Laker squad with a horrible record, 16 games missed to injury, and a 25 game stretch to end the season of basically playing pick-up ball.

What I try to do in topics like these, is to place the player in each year in the same situation. That way it is less about how they performed in very particular circumstances differing from each other, and more about what their individual basketball playing ability was at that point in time.

Put 2005 Kobe, from the first half of the season when he was healthy and had the Lakers in the playoffs, onto the 2009 Laker team with Phil Jackson, Fish, and some stability and continuity, and we go through the playoffs like a hot knife through butter.

At least, more than we did already.

[glenclose]

with the arrival of pau. mamba was a bad man during his scoring championship years post shaq/pre pau but the second run with pjax and pau allowed him to develop a certain sharpness and maturity that honed in on that desire for rings.

[That Nicka]

I think you are underestimating the impact circumstance has on your ability to perform as a player. Kobe's skills didn't erode from 2003 and then resurface in 2006. It just doesn't work like that. Starting the season he was as close to his three-peat defensive level as he's been since, because he still had his prime athleticism. Offensively he had an entirely new set of teammates with no offensive structure and a confused coach.

You really think that 03 or 06 Kobe is a drastically different person who could be plugged into that situation and average 35/5/5 on 45%, but the same person a year earlier/later can't?

06 was his peak offensively, so no I dont think 05 Kobe could do what 06 Kobe did. 06 Kobe averaged significantly more points on better efficiency.. WHILE 05 Kobe had better teammates.. Caron was better than Luke, Mihm was better than Kwame.. (Atkins and Smush were both garbage)... Of course Phil coming back made a huge difference, but Phil was also here in 04 when Kobe had his terrible year (by his standards)..

How you train in the offseason, how you prepare your body, personal problems or circumstances can all have an affect on how players play the game of basketball.. In 04 Kobe had his personal issues and he played absolutely awful in the Finals, outside of game 2. Kobe bulked up in 05 and was bigger than he has ever been in his career.. I believe this did not give him his desired effects which is why the next year he slimmed back down and has stayed at that size since. 05 was probably his last year as an elite defender, his last year with elite athleticism, and he played a nice all-around game with a bad team. BUT he was not as good offensively as he was in other years which is going to dock him down considering he's a SG who's main impact is an offensive force