Is There a Single Bulls Fan on Here Who Says D.Will > Rose?

[Sunk Cost]

FACTS:
-47% of RealGM PC Posters who voted in that thread, prefer D.Will to Rose
-0.0% of RealGM PC Posters who are Bulls fans prefer D.Will to Rose

If that's your point, that's fine, but that's not quite as thread-worthy as the idea you were suggesting earlier. I think you'd find a similar trend for many of the biggest rivalries on this board. You can't expect the 10 or so Bulls fans in this topic to represent every rational point of view in the debate, especially since half of them spend a good chunk of their time here defending Rose

[Trader_Joe]

:facepalm:

Instead of talking in circles or obviously being unclear and poor in explaining your "point" (since both myself and others in this thread don't see your point and/or don't agree with it) why not work on your ability to communicate your reasoning more effectively?

Otherwise this seems like the classic defeatist reply poorly disguised as some sort of condescending victory. And it's really not.

[Trader_Joe]

FACTS:
-47% of RealGM PC Posters who voted in that thread, prefer D.Will to Rose
-0.0% of RealGM PC Posters who are Bulls fans prefer D.Will to Rose

If that's your point, that's fine, but that's not quite as thread-worthy as the idea you were suggesting earlier. I think you'll find a similar trend for many comparable players on this board. You can't expect the 10 or so Bulls fans in this topic to represent every rational point of view in the debate, especially since half of them spend a good chunk of their time here defending Rose

If it wasn't thread worthy it would not have sucked in so many Bulls fans and replies from so many. And really, is there a definition of thread worthy during a lock-out?


Really I created this thread for a couple reasons:

-Seemingly a sudden flood of Chicago fans on the RealGM(at least several I have never seen on the T&T board)

-A flood of Rose related threads/comparisons

-What seems like a large disconnect between Bulls fans evaluation of their players, and non-Bulls fans evaluations of other players. Not just Rose, but Noah and Boozer as well. (I for one have always been a Deng fan, so I think people just woke up to him a bit)

-Coldfish, who I like and respect as a poster, listing D.Will below Westbrook. I wasn't sure if this was indicative of a D.Will backlash since he seems like Rose's main rival, as healthy, prime Paul is clearly a step above either one IMO

-Testing objectivity


I spend a lot of time on the T&T board. Over there you are pretty much forced to be objective about your players if you ever expect to create an acceptable trade. Most Nets fans didn't like me when I first joined since if anything I tried to set them straight on our players, like Devin Harris (who I used to try to trade away as soon as he made the ASG knowing he was at the peak of being overrated) and even now with Lopez to certain extent.

In a way I think I pride myself, and I think the T&T board prides itself in perhaps a level of objectivity and neutrality that we are forced to live by. Having come over here and spent some time here, it seemed this was the home of the homers, where every thread was agenda driven (much like this one) but towards teams/players. I think I reinforced my own perception and perhaps all I was looking to do.

[Sunk Cost]

Haha, OK then. I don't spend a lot of time on that board, so the homerism isn't really new to me, and it doesn't take much to get a Rose thread going. You actually have to try not to start one.

I also don't think that it's impossible to find the Bulls fans you're looking for on RealGM, but this might not be the best way (unless that illini guy is a Bulls fan...he usually is fighting with Rose posters, I think).

[coldfish]

-Coldfish, who I like and respect as a poster, listing D.Will below Westbrook. I wasn't sure if this was indicative of a D.Will backlash since he seems like Rose's main rival, as healthy, prime Paul is clearly a step above either one IMO

I don't see DWill as a rival to Rose. If you have read me much, I see Rose as a combo guard. A smaller version of Wade. Rose's game really isn't similar to DWill and the teams aren't rivals (yet). Comparing Rose and DWill is, to some extent, comparing apples and oranges.

I think that might be why Bulls fans look at Rose and rate him differently than many others. Many people look at Rose purely in the context as a PG and as that, I will be the first to admit that Rose doesn't stack up well against guys like Rondo and DWill in his ability to run an offense or set up teammates.

That being said, ball dominant guards can win in the NBA and have done so frequently. DWade is a perfect example but so is MJ, Kobe, etc. None of them relied on a PG to set them up and the offense ran through them, even though they frequently look to score first. People frequently hold the fact that Rose scores a lot against him when its considered a strength for other ball dominant guards. Note: I'm not saying Rose = a prime Kobe, MJ or even Wade. I'm just saying that when trying to rate and evaluate him, people should look at him in this light, not as a Rondo clone.

I like Westbrook too. I'm not going to let a bad playoff series change my mind about what was a pretty good season by him.

[Rerisen]

A smaller version of Wade. Rose's game really isn't similar to DWill and the teams aren't rivals (yet). Comparing Rose and DWill is, to some extent, comparing apples and oranges.

Indeed. But because Wade played SG while dominating the offense, you never heard that he was bad for his team's offense. Nor did you even hear that the Heat needed some kind of passing wizard PG alongside him to buff up the team's playmaking. Even though last year Rose averaged more assists than Wade ever did.

Rose also averaged more assists than Hinrich ever did for the Bulls, and more than other PG's such as Jameer Nelson or even most seasons from Chauncey Billups. But because Rose generated them mostly by drive and kick, people look down upon that since they prefer a fancy pass that looks good on TV out of a standing dribble, or pick and roll action.

Ironically, if Rose only averaged 15 PPG but still 7.7 assists, I think he would be looked at as a much more competent PG. It's as if for each additional point a PG averages, his distributing skills get marked down another notch, even if in volume, he is setting up more baskets for his team than many other PG's.

[Jvaughn]

Ironically, if Rose only averaged 15 PPG but still 7.7 assists, I think he would be looked at as a much more competent PG. It's as if for each additional point a PG averages, his distributing skills get marked down another notch, even if in volume, he is setting up more baskets for his team than many other PG's.

Sadly, I have to agree with that. It's ridiculous that Rose gets bashed for being able to carry a scoring load, while also running an offense.

[Trader_Joe]

Ironically, if Rose only averaged 15 PPG but still 7.7 assists, I think he would be looked at as a much more competent PG. It's as if for each additional point a PG averages, his distributing skills get marked down another notch, even if in volume, he is setting up more baskets for his team than many other PG's.

Sadly, I have to agree with that. It's ridiculous that Rose gets bashed for being able to carry a scoring load, while also running an offense.

I get what he's saying, but....

Of the PG's he's mentioned (Hirnch, Nelson) I've never been impressed by them. A top PG really should top 8 apg. I think Iverson did once (as Ball dominant a PG as there was), but I wasn't a fan of him or Arenas either. I see this as more a flaw of the coach/system than the player.

I wouldn't be surprised if this team rose up in a Wade/Bryant kind of way, where Rose is SG platooned next to a PG or guard who is not a SG, but more of a spot up shooting PG... ala Paxson, J.Williams, Kerr, D.Fisher, Shaw.

[coldfish]

I get what he's saying, but....

Of the PG's he's mentioned (Hirnch, Nelson) I've never been impressed by them. A top PG really should top 8 apg. I think Iverson did once (as Ball dominant a PG as there was), but I wasn't a fan of him or Arenas either. I see this as more a flaw of the coach/system than the player.

I wouldn't be surprised if this team rose up in a Wade/Bryant kind of way, where Rose is SG platooned next to a PG or guard who is not a SG, but more of a spot up shooting PG... ala Paxson, J.Williams, Kerr, D.Fisher, Shaw.

Bulls fans have been calling for something like this for about a year, since Gordon left. The team needs someone who can handle the ball a little and hit an open jumper to play next to Rose. A lot of us feel strongly that a guard that complements Rose (even if he isn't a superstar) would really help the offense overall and help Rose personally.

The only issue is Rose's height. He shouldn't be guarding 2's all game long (though he does fine in short stretches). As such, this guy needs to be a little taller than the Paxon's of the world.

But yeah, I think you get it. There are a lot of terms for it. Bill Simmons had an article on it calling it an "A" guard. Regardless, if you think of Rose in this context, he looks better than if you try to look at him through the lens of a traditional PG.

I'll restate, if you evaluate Rose versus other PG's (like Williams) using criteria for traditional PG's, like:
- Can this guy run an offense?
- Is this guy good at setting up his teammates?
I can certainly see why people would put DWill over Rose. That really isn't Rose's role on the Bulls though.

[Rerisen]

I wouldn't be surprised if this team rose up in a Wade/Bryant kind of way, where Rose is SG platooned next to a PG or guard who is not a SG, but more of a spot up shooting PG... ala Paxson, J.Williams, Kerr, D.Fisher, Shaw.

Except Rose is a PG not a SG. He doesn't have the size to be a SG. And when he's already top 10 in the league in assists, it would be silly and inefficient to go hunting for a PG that distributes better than him, because you are talking about an All-Star. You also wouldn't want to take the ball out of Rose's hands since breaking down defenses and making plays (for himself and others) is his greatest strength.

So you have the right idea of matching skill sets for your guards, but just at the wrong position.

Isn't it so much easier to have Rose do the Wade/Kobe/Jordan role from the PG position? And instead of looking for a Paxson or Fisher, just find the SG version of that player? A player that can at least dribble a little, spot up for threes, and occasionally make their own play.

That is why Bulls fans are interested in players like JR Smith, Jamal Crawford, Jason Richardson, etc.

Heck, any offensive competent SG that can dribble at all, should fit the bill and make the Bulls immensely better and more threatening.

Those that watch the Bulls regularly understand that Rose's mentality is not that of an Iverson or Monta Ellis. There is no doubt that he's an attacking / scoring PG, and a closer, certainly, but it's not his desire to be a one man offense at all game long like A.I. A better, healthier season from Boozer and a real starting SG will likely reveal this to the rest of the world.

[Tubal]

It depends on where you place your value. Rose could probably beat Deron in a 1 on 1 game, but Deron could probably beat Rose in a 5 on 5 game.

Doubtful, since Rose smothered Deron head to head both times last year. The first time resulting in a huge locker blow up vs his coach, after which Sloan quit, and Deron was subsequently traded.

Uhm... an ECF bulls team smothered a 39-43 Jazz team and a 24-58 Nets team. Really? Shocking. I'm sure it was 100% because of Rose and Deron.

Give Deron and Rose the same 4 guys, put them head to head, I bet Deron's team wins more often than not.

I'm still shocked you're a mod.

[Rerisen]

Uhm... an ECF bulls team smothered a 39-43 Jazz team and a 24-58 Nets team. Really? Shocking. I'm sure it was 100% because of Rose and Deron.

I didn't say anything about which team won. The Bulls won the games because they were a better team.

But Deron struggled individually because Rose shut him down head to head. He looked lost and like he wanted to quit. Rose did the same thing to Paul, he gets up for big matchups.

There was some talk Deron was playing hurt at the end of the year, so maybe there is some hope for his 1-12 performance there, we'll see how it goes next year.

BTW, the Jazz were 31-23 when the Bulls played them, hardly a bad team.

Think your 'same 4 players assessment' is wrong too, obivously. It took Rose scoring 27.5 to get by the Pacers, and averaging 30 PPG to get by the Hawks, as Boozer was playing hurt and very ineffective. The Bulls effectively had no 2nd option. Deron doesn't have that kind of takeover scoring ability, especially with a whole defense geared at him.

If a team already has a Durant, Kobe, LeBron, then yeah, I'd take Deron then. But most teams aren't gifted with two legitimate franchise players, give me Rose if the choice is going to be your best player.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Bulls fans have been calling for something like this for about a year, since Gordon left. The team needs someone who can handle the ball a little and hit an open jumper to play next to Rose. A lot of us feel strongly that a guard that complements Rose (even if he isn't a superstar) would really help the offense overall and help Rose personally.

You're essentially describing Kirk Hinrich, who was a bad fit next to Rose. What Rose actually needs is a reliable 3 point threat and a guy that can create his own shot, not just a guy that can dribble.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Bulls fans have been calling for something like this for about a year, since Gordon left. The team needs someone who can handle the ball a little and hit an open jumper to play next to Rose. A lot of us feel strongly that a guard that complements Rose (even if he isn't a superstar) would really help the offense overall and help Rose personally.

You're essentially describing Kirk Hinrich, who was a bad fit next to Rose. What Rose actually needs is a reliable 3 point threat and a guy that can create his own shot, not just a guy that can dribble.

He wasnt a bad fit, he just wasnt really good that season. His shooting was pretty bad. If Kirk could get his 3-ball back he'd seriously be perfect.

[Jvaughn]

Bulls fans have been calling for something like this for about a year, since Gordon left. The team needs someone who can handle the ball a little and hit an open jumper to play next to Rose. A lot of us feel strongly that a guard that complements Rose (even if he isn't a superstar) would really help the offense overall and help Rose personally.

You're essentially describing Kirk Hinrich, who was a bad fit next to Rose. What Rose actually needs is a reliable 3 point threat and a guy that can create his own shot, not just a guy that can dribble.

He wasnt a bad fit, he just wasnt really good that season. His shooting was pretty bad. If Kirk could get his 3-ball back he'd seriously be perfect.

Except for the fact that he deterred from the offense every time he touched the ball (resetting) and that his defense is not ideal for a starting SG. He's not that good of a defender anymore, and he gets to skate by on reputation. I wouldn't want Kirk on the team in any capacity outside of backup PG and spot minute SG.

[bullsnewdynasty]

He wasnt a bad fit, he just wasnt really good that season. His shooting was pretty bad.

You could say this for essentially any season since his contract year.

If Kirk could get his 3-ball back he'd seriously be perfect.

He still can't create his own shot and doesn't show up in the 4th quarter, so no, he wouldn't. Unless you're talking about him as a backup.