82-89 Keeper League Playoffs (START JUDGING pg. 6)

[Snakebites]

^I never said he forgot.

You have a rather unfortunate tendency to grossly oversimplify the point of view of another. My point was this:

1) The Mailman wasn't a great passer. That is clear from the numbers here. He was slightly more likely to turn it over than dish it out. This was not true of him later in his career, but it was clearly true of him in the 80s. He certainly wasn't a good enough passer to make up for Moses Malone being an absolute black hole of a passer even in his peak years. Thus, collectively, though Karl wasn't necessarily an awful passer, its clear he wasn't yet at his NBA peak in that regard and won't be able to cover for Moses's issues in that regard.

2) You are running much more of your offense through your front court men, who themselves are not great passers and got the majority of their points in the paint (whatever you say about Karl in the 80s I think its still fairly clear his bread and butter in the 80s were his post moves). This means, even if they are efficient, you have a more stagnant and predictable offense than you otherwise might have had.

I don't have this problem because

a) Neither of my starting bigs are what I'd call "black hole" passers, in fact Kareem was quite good (the numbers don't do him justice IMO).

b) My bigs complement each other, with Kareem playing both down low and to an extent from mid range and Roundfield playing a supporting role at mid range.

c) My offense is able to rely much more on perimeter players than yours does, making for a much more balanced and less obviously centralized offensive attack.

I feel like I'm sorta repeating myself here though, so I'll just leave it at that. I think I've said what I needed to say and will let the voters decide from here.

[BlackIce]

Rebuttal :

The thing about Laimbeer in the season BI chose, which is evident in the stats: he wasn’t the shooter/wasn’t as willing a shooter as he would become. In the selected season he took .2 3s a game.

I never mentioned 3 point shooting, which he could do though he rarely did. I was more thinking that mid range 18-20 footer. Laimbeer was a perimeter based big I don't think you'll dispute that.

He and Hakeem match up statistically pretty similarly in the rebounding department

If our C's match up in the rebounding department and I win every other position it is clear I have a considerable advantage in the rebounding department.

I have the advantage in penetration and efficiency along with speed and quickness at PG while he’s got the nod defensively.

I wouldn't say speed and quickness at PG go to Sleepy. DJ was explosive as hell, nicknamed "rocket legs" for a reason and he scored more then Sleepy in our selected seasons.

Down at SF you’ve got Erving. There’s no way around it, he was an amazing player. I’ve got Pressey in specifically to guard him and to use his ballhandling to put pressure on Erving to not play as much help D. If Erving gets wandering eyes and begins moving off ball to double Hakeem or put extra pressure on Gervin/Sleepy, we can kick it back to Pressey and trust him to put BI’s defense on tilt. The only solace in this match-up is that I have a plus defender for him, and he isn’t in his prime to put up any completely ridiculous numbers.

24/7/4/2/2, 1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st), besides that though if Pressey is on Erving that means Nance is on Bird. Bird owned Nance. I'll get into that later. Also if you double Erving he is an amazing passer and incredibly unselfish, with all our options on offense he will find the open man.

At power forward lies BI’s best player: Larry Legend. He’ll get his. He’ll help others get theirs. He’s the MVP. BI is doing exactly what I did in an earlier game rolling with Larry at PF on defense, but I think having him specifically at the 4 on offense will be a hindrance to him. He wasn’t particularly quick footed or known for penetration, and you’re enabling a bigger player to body him up when he tries to run offense through the post. Nance was also one of the better shot blockers you’ll ever find guarding Larry on defense, so his timing may disrupt/alter some shots.

Bird on Nance in 20 games put up 26/8/8/2/1 on 53%. Like I said Bird owned Nance.

If Laimbeer wants to shoot elbow jumpers or 3s at his current percentage, we’ll consider that a win over not having Hakeem forcing TOs and doubling Bird/Erving on their penetration.

Laimbeer will mix it up in the paint and depending on if his shot is falling will go for that elbow jumper. If it isn't dropping he'll go back into the paint. I think Cellar is underrating Laimbeer here.

help defense—Other than Erving, BI doesn’t have it anywhere, and he needs it, and Erving is slowing down and his help D isn’t at it’s apex here.

Funny, help defense is one of our strengths. DJ, Erving, Bird, Laimbeer are all good help defenders with Erving and Bird sometimes being shot blockers. Our help D is good.

Foot speed- Again, BI doesn’t have it anywhere. DJ isn’t faster than Sleepy who can penetrate on about anyone, Richmond was underrated in athleticism, but (cheating and reading his write-up) will be at a speed disadvantage himself, and Bird and Laimbeer (and Ruland, Jackson, English) all were not quick. Nance was very quick at his position, Hakeem was a terror, and Gervin wasn’t a slouch. With the lack of help D and the number of ball-handlers I have capable of doing damage, he’s going to be on tilt more than he wants to be.

Again I have good help D, DJ is quick as is Ritchmond and Erving. If you think quickness is going to hinder Bird who was very agile then you are mistaken he managed to win 3 straight MVP's after all. Laimbeer was agile as well and smart. Just like Bird. If you have the faster team we have the smarter one.

Dennis Johnson- He chose the wrong season, IMO. This DJ was a high scoring combo guard averaging only 5 assists. Not the DJ who fit seamlessly in with the Celtics high scoring team as a near true PG. With Erving and Bird dominating the ball DJ is going to find himself at a loss for what to do at this stage in his career.

I chose this season for a reason, with Bird at 7 assists, Erving and Ritchmond at 4 I didn't need a traditional point. I'd rather have another offensive threat at the PG spot, a better one then the one from BOS.

This will be my one and only rebuttal. GL Cellar may the best man win.

[lukekarts]

On one of the few opportunities to vote (I'm abroad right now), I'll confirm my votes for Snake and Ice.

BI has too much individual talent in his series, meanwhile I think Snake has the advantage in the back court whilst being able to compete somewhat with the Malones in the paint with KAJ. V close though.

[SamBone]

well Since snake thinks he can repeat his thouhts, I will repeat my Facts

Karl had a higher asst % and a lower turnover rate then both of his BIGS, but his reponse is that stats don't give KAJ justice even thou I proved that he turned the ball over more and assisted on less baskets

He claims Karl did not have a good mid range game but when I post his draft bio (saying his jumper and passing were his strengths) and footage from the 1989 All Star game (my selected season) filled with Karl nailing baseline and fould line jumpers. Snake's response is that 1 game does not prove anything and just because someone was good at something in college doesn't mean that it translates (honestly never saw anyone that was know to be a shooter in college, not take that to the next level)

He claimed my team has no spacing yet his guards both shoot below 20% from 3 and when I pointed out Mullin, he thinks that sample siza is too small

He thinks I have poor help defense and ignores that Bobby Jones was one of the best in the history of the game.

He concedes that Moses dominates KAJ just like he did in the FINALS that season

My team has the most dominate post presence (Moses) has great mid range shooting (Karl, Bobby, Sikma, Mullin, English)

Moses, Mailman and Sikma will dominate KAJ, Rounds and Tarp

Mo (as proven by their games) keeps Issiah from going off and often gets him in foul trouble (fouling out of 25% of their matchups in the selected seasons), and actually Mo plays above his averages in thoses games, most likely because of the extra foul shots

Squid should be able to get past Mullin, but since he has no range, he will then need to deal with my superior shot blocking that my team hass

I simply have too much unstoppable talent on my team with dominating rebounding, steals, shot blocking and the ability to get to the line at a very very high rate.

May the best team win

[CellarDoor]

Apparently luke's starting the voting early...too bad I didn't get to get a rebuttal in befor that. Anyhow, here goes.

Rebuttal :

I never mentioned 3 point shooting, which he could do though he rarely did. I was more thinking that mid range 18-20 footer. Laimbeer was a perimeter based big I don't think you'll dispute that.
Having the ability to do it and doing it are vastly different ideas, take a look at this:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bbi01.html I don't know if it shows you, but I've got his offensive rebounds sorted by season. They take a dive off a cliff as his 3pt numbers get nearer the 150 attempts he pulled in the late 80s. His range was extending, it's not that he just decided to start moving away from the basket one day. He was a good shooter, like Richmond, but both opted not to shoot in favor of playing closer to the basket in the selected seasons, this kills your spacing and allows for Bird/Erving to be swarmed some.

If our C's match up in the rebounding department and I win every other position it is clear I have a considerable advantage in the rebounding department.
Where's the considerable advantage coming from? Bird outrebounds Nance, by a small margin, Lucas blows him out of the water, Ruland loses noticeably to Hakeem and Lucas. Erving kills Pressey, but Johnson closes the gap, Gervin outrebounds Richmond, and while neither Sleepy nor DJ figure to get a lot of boards around the rest, DJ has him. I'd say you have an advantage, but considerable is stretching it.

I wouldn't say speed and quickness at PG go to Sleepy. DJ was explosive as hell, nicknamed "rocket legs" for a reason and he scored more then Sleepy in our selected seasons.
Explosive and quick and fast are different notions. I checked with a few other players and everyone's under the same impression I am: DJ's not the quickest guy out there. On the other side, Sleepy's ridiculously quick and an excellent ball handler. And again, DJ scoring more points than Sleepy shouldn't be something you consider a good thing. I want the judges to take special note of this: this DJ is not the one managing a team full of stars on the dynasty celtics. This one is the combo guard who took over 4 more shots per game than he would two years later with the Celtics.


24/7/4/2/2, 1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st), besides that though if Pressey is on Erving that means Nance is on Bird. Bird owned Nance. I'll get into that later. Also if you double Erving he is an amazing passer and incredibly unselfish, with all our options on offense he will find the open man.
I didn't see anwhere where I said I'd double him. If I did, my apologies, but I'm not going to be doubling too much. If I do, the help will come from DJ's defender and Hakeem in the paint. DJ doesn't have range to concern us anyhow.

Bird on Nance in 20 games put up 26/8/8/2/1 on 53%. Like I said Bird owned Nance.
Erm, Bird wasn't on Nance (well, he may have guarded him, but Nance didn't him). Nance was on McHale like every other power forward in the league.Of course Bird has a sizeable advantage, but those numbers are actually not more impressive than his normal insane numbers. I'd be okay with it if that's what Bird did in the series. If we're going to throw out the inconsequential matchup numbers though, lets do the ones that may matter: Bird possibly guarding Nance.
18, 10, 6.5 on 53%, 26, 7, 1 on 52.5%, 15, 6.5, 3.5 on 57%, 18,7, 3 on 50%. If Bird's on Nance, he didn't slow him down, and if I worked those averages out, he's score about 8 less on a better percentage methinks with Bird having a slight rebound advantage and the obvious passing advantage. Again though, it's doubtful Nance guarded Bird.

Laimbeer will mix it up in the paint and depending on if his shot is falling will go for that elbow jumper. If it isn't dropping he'll go back into the paint. I think Cellar is underrating Laimbeer here.
And I think you're overrating him compared to even "young" Hakeem". And what do you think he'll do to Hakeem offensively in the paint other than give Hakeem even more time to rotate to and from him onto a penetrating Erving?

Funny, help defense is one of our strengths. DJ, Erving, Bird, Laimbeer are all good help defenders with Erving and Bird sometimes being shot blockers. Our help D is good.
There's a number of HUGE stretches there. Bird, Laimbeer are good team defenders, not help defenders. There's a difference. Laimbeer isn't quick footed enough to provide help to much of anyone and his block numbers bear out the fact that he didn't have great timing. Even DJ was also noted as much more of a man defender. He wasn't big on playing the passing lanes, and he generally stuck his man and didn't venture too far off. You don't have much of any help defense.

Again I have good help D, DJ is quick as is Ritchmond and Erving. If you think quickness is going to hinder Bird who was very agile then you are mistaken he managed to win 3 straight MVP's after all. Laimbeer was agile as well and smart. Just like Bird. If you have the faster team we have the smarter one.
I don't see anywhere where I said Bird was anything other than a monster, agreed, Bird was agile for his size, as was Laimbeer, and I noted Richmond was underrated in that dept IMO. Smart rotations can save them to an extent, but not completely.


I chose this season for a reason, with Bird at 7 assists, Erving and Ritchmond at 4 I didn't need a traditional point. I'd rather have another offensive threat at the PG spot, a better one then the one from BOS.
The DJ you chose was more effective as the primary guy though, he hasn't transitioned into the guy that's used to not having a bigger role. He's what? Your 4th option here? Random side note: anyone know why DJ's ORTG didn't climb higher than it was later in his career? He shot better with more assists and lower usg%

I think I got a chance to mention everything I wanted to address from your write-up here, so I should be done. In summary:

BI's shooting is overrated (young Richmond, young Laimbeer), Bird has a new space on the floor offensively, DJ isn't used to not being a focal point, there's little rebounding advantage his way, and I've the help D to address his penetration.

This will be my one and only rebuttal. GL Cellar may the best man win.

[Miller4ever]

What a difficult round to judge. You've got an old-old school GGFFC team in BlackIce going up against a prototypical 12345 team in Cellar. Cellar improved his rotation in this round, patching up the holes that I tried to exploit last round with the invincible Rodney McCray. BlackIce is rolling with a team that's stocked with veteran talent. However, in terms of getting the most out of the personnel and "synergy," I'd give this one to Cellar. BlackIce made some great decisions, and I think had the most balls in terms of putting his team together, and I even like his players more. I'm going with CELLAR

As for Sambone and Snake, geez. It's obviously the bigs of Sam against the littles of Snake. I have actually pondered a double-Malone post presence in the past, but I don't think it's a complimentary one at all. Yes, Sam is right in saying Malone has the distance to stretch out that offense, but one of these guys is going to be less effective just because of the nature of their games. What makes Sam's frontcourt the most dangerous, though, is the addition of Jack Sikma holding it down on the bench. I've flip-flopped on this matchup quite a bit. I don't like Quinn Buckner's role on his team, but there's a bit more I don't like on Snake's team. In terms of overall fit and synergy I would actually go with Snake. I'm also going to hold off on this one. I'm going with SAMBONE

[-Kees-]

Here's my votes:

CellarDoor VS BlackIce

MY VOTE: BlackIce

Although Lambier wasn't the shooting threat maybe as he was later in his career, he was a banger down low. Hakeem was strong but a bit lanky (not saying he was small...) in his early years. Bill will be able to slow down Hakeem enough, and keep him away from the basket enough to keep him at his averages. Bird will be too much for Nance, and that will be the key to the series IMO. Cellar has the advantage at the 2 for sure, Mitch wasn't great as a rookie as an off-ball player. PG is very close, but DJ's D will slow down Cellar's PG's enough to cause some turnovers.

SamBone VS Snakebites

MY VOTE: SamBone

What's tough for Snake is he doesn't match up well against SamBone. Isiah had a hard time with Mo and KAJ had a hard time with Moses. 2 of Snake's key players are at a disadvantage because of their matchups. Snake definitely has the advantage on the perimeter. Moncrief could slow down Mullin pretty well and Wilkes will have his moments on Jones. Malone did have a pretty consistent jumper in his early days, and can spread the floor a bit. Even though he certainly isn't the passer he will become, I still think his talent level will overpower Roundfield.

Great matchups though, good job to all 4 of you guys

[Warspite]

Vote: Sambone

Roundfield is the protypical PF of the 70s and hes just the example that K Malone destroyed and changed the way the NBA played. I watched the 83 Finals game 4 last night and what I saw was that Moses could move KAJ just a few inches and get him off his spots while Moses in the 4th was a wrecking ball. Sikma was considered the best defender on KAJ and was at his best. I love Zeke and Squid but they arent going to carry the day over that frontline.

Vote: CD

The biggest weakness in Blacks team is vs a super atheltic bigman. Hakeem fills the bill and he has help. CD has the def frontcourt in this league and its going to be able to hide Iceman and allow him to go off in this series.

[CellarDoor]

Vote: Sambone

Roundfield is the protypical PF of the 70s and hes just the example that K Malone destroyed and changed the way the NBA played. I watched the 83 Finals game 4 last night and what I saw was that Moses could move KAJ just a few inches and get him off his spots while Moses in the 4th was a wrecking ball. Sikma was considered the best defender on KAJ and was at his best. I love Zeke and Squid but they arent going to carry the day over that frontline.

Vote: CD

The biggest weakness in Blacks team is vs a super atheltic bigman. Hakeem fills the bill and he has help. CD has the def frontcourt in this league and its going to be able to hide Iceman and allow him to go off in this series.

Stuff like the bolded is the random anectdotal stuff I like reading from people like War in these games.

Also thank you for not continuing to overration of Laimbeer.

[bryant08]

Don't have a lot of time, but I've read through the write-ups and made my decision. I'll try and add reasons tomorrow.

BlackIce vs. CellarDoor
Snakebites vs. SamBone

[TMACFORMVP]

Bone v. Snake

This is a damn tough matchup. I think Bone and Snake did a good job of highlighting their strengths, and their respective weaknesses. SamBone specifically did a good job of emphasizing the rebounding advantage, while Snake equally as effectively pointed out his superiority on the weakside. I agree with Snake that at this point of Karl's career he wasn't the mid range shooter, nor passer he was the latter part of his career; but I still think Snake downplays the overall frontcourt edge Bone has. Overall, there is certainly more talent on the frontcourt for Bone's team. However, Roundfield should still compete on the boards, provide weak-side defense, and fit perfectly within the offense. And Kareem should still have his way (not outplay, but considering slightly overlapping play by the Malone's, Kareem could match his offensive production). Moses outplayed Kareem in '83, but Kareem was a slightly better player in '82, and Moses dominance came on the boards, Kareem still did roughly 24 PPG on 55% from the floor.

As much an impact Karl Malone will have (and he will maul Roundfield); I think Isiah will have similarly significant impact. SamBone showed in his writeup that Isiah actually played better against Cheek in their matchups. The point is taken than Cheeks still maintained his averages, if not went above, but a playoff Isiah in a setting where he can be efficient (which has been illustrated) has much more control of the game, especially in late game situations.

I'm a bit unsure why Bone selected Mullin's third season opposed to his fourth. I'd assume it was under the impression that he played SG in that selected season, but I highly doubt there was a huge stylistic change in his game, especially considering he was the noticeably better player in '89. And ironically enough, in this particular series, he's guarding Snake's starting SF (Eddie Johnson), who actually scores on a similar volume and efficiency - on a playoff team as well, while Mullin was on a terrible Warriors team that actually had a better record w/out him. Nonetheless, I vehemently agree with SamBone that despite gaudy three point shooting, Snake is wrong in not considering Mullin as a shooter. I think for that reason alone, he has very good value in the starting lineup, but I question how much offensive impact he's going to have with Moncrief on him.

Which leads me to concluding, that while Jones and Cheeks should get their averages; SamBone is heavily relying on his frontcourt to dominate. He's got a good chance at this, but his starting perimeter is limited in terms of being able to truly create very good opportunities to the extent Snake's perimeter can.

I think English is an underrated factor in this series, he'll provide another perimeter offensive creator, though he preferred a similar area as the Malone's as well, but I'm unsure about Quinn's role off the bench. I'd rather have just given a bigger role to someone like English or Gus, who better compliment the perimeter starting lineup. I think Snake misses that sort of "same factor" off the bench in terms of explosiveness. However; the roles are very well defined, and it is worth mentioning that Snake's bench players were actually bench players that were proven to have big impacts off the bench, in particular, Tarpley, who was a fantastic per minute contributor for those Dallas teams. Sikma is another factor off the bench, that can fit in both offensively and defensively.

SamBone's team has more talent, depth, and rebounding. Snake's team has the better defensive unit, because I believe he's more explosive weakside, while being comparable man to man. I think offensively, I'd give the edge to Snake's team, b/c I think Isiah will still have control of the perimeter, and Kareem, EJ, and Moncrief should still get theirs with the more well defined roles. Like who is the first option for Bone's team, how does English fit in the game with those two, where does the perimeter sort scoring come from in the starting unit. I actually think in the end, these are non issues, but against Snake's team, I think it becomes more highlighted because of how well the roles fit on Snake's team (also worth mentioning, you're getting four 20 PPG scorers in the starting lineup, along with Roundfield who gives you 17-19 points as well. But offensively, it's very close because of the physically imposing frontcourt.

****, I still can't decide. I feel one way one time, another way the next minute. I have to vote sometime though, and at the moment, I'm thinking Snake's SLIGHTLY superior defensive and offensive matchups gives him a grueling G7 victory, despite SamBone's talent. I'm still unsure, but that's what I'm feeling at the moment.

VOTE: Snakebites

[Warspite]

I felt the same way TMac did but on the other side of the fence. I wouldnt be shocked if Isiah or Moses had superhuman efforts to pull it out. I think all 4 teams are very close.

[TMACFORMVP]

Cellar v. BlackIce

I don't have much time, and frankly, this deserves a lot of thought, because this is another damn tough series, that is another "coin flip" series.

Notes:
- Hakeem will pwn Laimbeer. I'm surprised Cellar didn't put up some of the head2head.
- Bird will pwn Nance; and I'm not entirely sure Nance didn't guard Bird for the most part in the '80's - and if he didn't, that doesn't really help that argument either.
- I think Pressey on Erving, and DJ on Gervin will do similar damage; both might be slightly less efficient, but will have significant impacts on the game.
- I also think Sleepy, and Mitch have big advantages in terms of exposing their opponents weaknesses defensively (Sleepy being quicker than Mitch, and Gervin not doing much at all to limit Richmond).
- Defensively, I like Cellar's "feel" more, most likely b/c of Hakeem and Nance bieng significantly more intimidating than Bird/Laimbeer. However, I think BI's team defense is very good (not particularly help, but team). Laimbeer should be a clog in the paint, Bird in rotations, and Erving has the freedom to operate more freely than the last series because Pressey isn't as large a threat when compared to Bernard King. DJ also provides another good defender in the starting lineup.
- Offensively, I like BI's team more, most likely b/c of Bird and Erving. Richmond serves well as a third option sort, and while I agree with Cellar's assertion that Laimbeer wasn't a huge threat from the perimeter (at least to the extent he's being portrayed), he did have a good mid-range game. But I don't think it makes huge dividends in this series since, Hakeem was terrific at recovering and contesting the outside shot as well.
(Again though, Cellar's offense is pretty nice, he has an edge with Sleepy, Hakeem won't be stopped, and Gervin will still be a big factor offensively. Nance was a solid scorer on a good team, similar to the role he'll have on this team -- BI does have two very efficient offensive threats in Aguirre and Ruland off the bench).
- Bird is the best player in the series.
- BI's team is better on the boards.
- Both teams have very good fits, BI's is more unconventional, and Cellar's is more traditional. I tend to side with the traditional, but Bird did play a lot of four, so I don't know how conventional it is with a more examined eye.
- One another point, BI's team has some flexibility defensively on the perimeter. If Sleepy is exploiting Ricmond, it's possible for Erving to guard Gervin, DJ to be on Sleepy, and Richmond/Aguirre sufficing on Pressey.
- Benches, I really am starting to hop on the Marques bandwagon, but I'm puzzled why Cellar made the rotation change to give him less minutes, and Pressey roughly 38 minutes. But, nonetheless, his bench has slightly better balance, with BI's having more firepower. If you were to put a gun on my head, I'd probably say BI's has slightly more an impact, Ruland's one year peak, despite the turnovers was underrated. In fact, one area where I might criticize BI's rotation is that he could have put more pressure on the D with Ruland in the game, opposed to Laimbeer, without giving up too much defense (since Hakeem is likely gonna go off anyway).
- Little note about DJ. I'm not too bothered bout the year chosen tbh. I don't think much changed in his mind-set (unlike Wilt, early/latter part of his career), but rather his role changed. I think he's shown he could do what was asked, whether it'd be an off guard that plays good defense for a championship team in Seattle, or a leading scorer for a team like Phoenix, or a PG/floor general (tho that still was with Larry Bird) for a team like the Celtics.

I think overall, this is a damn close series. Cellar's defense is better b/c of the intimidation factor, but BI's offensive execution is slightly better, IMO. They have similar strengths and weaknesses in terms of which matchups to exploit, and defensive players on the opponents best offensive players. And note, while I say one has a better defense, the other better offense, I think both teams have very good of the other as well. Honestly, I'm still unsure, this is ridiculously hard. At the moment, I'm thinking Bird being the best player, along with a similar supporting cast, with slightly more flexibility eeks out a G7 victory. Sorry, Cellar.

Vote: BlackIce.

Note: I'm trying to find more judges for the voting. Honestly stuck, b/c of how close these series are, that we obviously need more opinions. penbeast is currently busy atm, but hopefully I can get someone good in by tomorrow (will not be here in the morning). Sorry for the slower round.

[dockingsched]

Sambone vs. Snakebites

Tried to read every piece of information that each poster provided, the effort was amazing. The argument basically broke down to Sambone's bigs and if that was more of an advantage than Snakebites' perimeter players. I appreciated the back and forth regarding k. malone's ability to stretch the floor, sambone's big man help defense, moses vs. kaj, thomas' ability to break down the defense against cheeks, mullin's elite shooting or lack there of. Ultimately I felt that the information presented for how well the Malone's play would shine vs. Snakebites froncourt was more convincing than the argument for sambone's guards getting significantly outplayed. Vote: Sambone, sorry snake!

[TMACFORMVP]

Thanks for voting dcash. I normally like people to have two vote leads over their opponent, but I can't find anyone else, and in the real NBA, a 4-3 lead means a win in a playoff setting. I guess that will call the series, BlackIce v. SamBone in the finals.

Writeups due ASAP, both of you guys are active, so tomorrow is good

[SamBone]

I will post this up quickly, hopefully iCE can do the same. There is a massive hurricane hitting the area tomorrow and I completlt intend to lose power and not have access, if I rebuttal is needed, please give me a little time to do so. I know this needs to speed up and II agree, but I can not control Mother Nature, and you all know I will respond as soon as I read things.

[SamBone]

BONED SAMUELS
PG: Mo Cheeks '86 (30) / Gus Williams '82 (18)
SG: Chris Mullin '88 (30) / Alex English '83 (12) / Gus Williams (6)
SF: Bobby Jones '82 (28) / Alex English '83 (20)
PF: Karl Malone '89 (35) / Jack Sikma '82 (13)
C: Moses Malone '83 (35) / Jack Sikma '82 (13)
Situational: Mark Eaton '85 and Quinn Buckner '82

Vs BlackIce
PG: Dennis Johnson ’82 (38) / Mark Jackson ‘88 (10)
SG Mitch Ritchmond ’89 (36) / Mark Aguirre ’84 (12)
SF: Julius Erving ’82 (38)/ Mark Aguirre ’84 (10)
PF: Larry Bird ’86 (40) / Jeff Ruland ’84 (8)
C : Bill Laimbeer ’86 (36)/ Jeff Ruland ’84 (12)


First, I want to wish my friend BI all the luck in the world. We talked a lot building these teams, and I am very glad to be matching up against him in this series. I do plan on winning, and believe that I got the team that should win this era. All along everyone told me that I am the best team in this era, and am just too dominate for anyone to defeat (not sure if they ment it or were just BS ing). Hopefully everyone still believes that and votes my way. May the best team win.

To simplify things, it is all a matter of choice when deciding between these 2 teams.

Will a post dominate team win, or a perimeter team prevail?

In my opinion, you need dominant BIGS to win in the NBA and in these games. That is what I believe and that is how I always try to build my teams. I know BI also believes this, but could not pass on the gift of Larry Bird falling in his lap. Teaming Larry Legend with the great Doctor is an amazing pair. His other talent is also very good, but he has a HUGE hole and that is that his team is all shooters and slashers, and he has ZERO post presence at all. I honestly think that rookie SG Mitch Richmond may be his best post option, and that simply does not cut it in a series like this. BI also is using a season that DJ was a ball dominant leading scoring SG and is trying to sell him as the later in his career floor general that led those great Celtic teams. Larry and Doc need to be on every game for ICE to have a shot. Any slippage or off night and ICE will struggle, that is the why perimeter teams NEVER win. They can beat anyone, but in a long series, they have no room for a so so shooting night.

ON DEFENSE

I think I am going to pick my poison here and put my best defender Bobby Jones on Larry Bird and let Karl Malone match up against Doc. I figure Bird is going to get his, but I wanna make him work! Bobby is the guy to do that. A matter of fact in Bobby’s selected season 1982, he matched up against Larry in the Eastern Conference finals and Larry had the worst playoff numbers of his entire career that season. (17.8 ppg while shooting 42%) That was because of Bobby. I do not think Lambeer will do much of anything against Moses. Mo will man up against DJ and Mullin will match up against Richmond. Ruland will struggle aginst Sikma, Aguirre will be guarded by English and Mark Jackson will be matched up against Gus Williams.

ON OFFENSE

Moses dominates Lambeer, there is no other way to put it. Moses is a BEAST and Lambeer could not and would not slow him down!

Karl will also go off, neither Doc or Larry will slow him down either. I truely think you will see MONSTER offensive performances from both of these 2 players in this series.

Both Mullin and Bobby Jones will be used for their mid range game and if they are left open will nail any open shot. Mullin also adds some range, but he was more of a 20 ft shooter. He had the ability to shoot the 3 at great percentages, but he just didn’t attempt as many at this stage of his career. He also was a great passer considering he had more assists then any of ICE's starters (except Bird). Mo will be our floor general and setting up the offense. Mo was an extremely efficient offensive player (believe 10th in offensive rating) even though he did not put up big totals, but also note that Mo assisted on an amaizing 32.3% ast% that season (considering DJ was 18.3% and Richmond was 17.6)

My bench should have a field day and it is what I believe truly separates our teams.

Alex English will be matched up against Mark Aguire, and we all know how those matchups went! English and his 56.1 TS% will be very deadly, and the fact that he was a GREAT offensive rebounder. Add to that the damage Jack Sikma can do against Jeff Ruland and what All NBA G Gus Williams will do against the rookie Mark Jackson and my bench owns this series

IN SUMMARY
- Moses is the most dominant force on the court. BI has no answer for the inside presence that Moses brings. I completely expect the MVP and FINNALS MVP to continue his 1983 dominance
- Karl Malone completely outperforms Doc J in this series. Karl’s offensive numbers here are going to be too great for Doc to match
- Larry gets his, but will work to get it. Bobby in my selected season did a very good job against Larry, but in Larry’s selected season, he is awesome. No doubt he will get his, but will that come close to what the Malone’s do?
- Mullin and Mitch are a wash
- DJ and Mo play a similar role and should wash each other out. DJ did have better offensive numbers in his selected season, but then again that was when he was the #1 option SG, not the role he will play on this team. Even giving DJ the advantage, he does not offer much in the role he is given on this team with Larry and Doc
- English goes off
- Sikma’s range and rebounding skills are way to much for Jeff Ruland to handle
- Gus Williams in his limited role will own the kid

[BlackIce]

Pleasure to face my boi Bone! We did talk a lot about this matchup in particular and felt we had the best chance of winning this era coming out of the last one. Sambone has an incredible team with upside for the future (Karl). He is in a good position now and going forward. That being said I think I have the experience and the personal to get this win.

We will lean on our forwards just like every other match-up we've had. Bird will get his even with Jones on him, Jones will be exhausted on offense trying to check Bird. A key to this series is perimeter offense for Sambone, he doesn't have much. Cheeks and Jones are non-factors really, and Mullin is a being used as a spot up shooter. They have no 3 point range, so it's all mid range really allowing me to pack the paint a bit. The Malone's will get theirs but Bird will get his and with Karl on Erving, Erving should have a monster series. He is to quick for Karl.

Offense
The ball will be in Birds and Ervings hands, they will create scoring opportunities, with DJ playing off ball, scoring when he can and Richmond spacing the floor. With good man defense but little help defense at the rim my forwards should have a field day. Aguirre is a post player that will get plenty of run to counter English.

Bird and Ritchmond are 3 point shooters (particularly Bird) and that is an aspect of the game that Bone doesn't bring to the table with his team. We have better spacing allowing Erving to drive to the basket against Karl.

Defense
DJ will be guarding Mullin, he should take him out of the series or at least hinder him greatly. Ritchmond on Cheeks, Erving on Bobby Jones allowing him to roam freely on defense and help when needed. Bird on Karl, and Laimbeer on Moses. Snake made the point that Karl isn't a great shooter yet and frontcourt spacing will be an issue for Bone. Meaning while all of my players from Laimbeer to DJ can shoot the mid range at least.

To conclude we have better spacing, better shooting, better passing by far and better perimeter offense. We have the best player in the series in Bird.

[bryant08]

Congrats to both SamBone/BlackIce for getting here. For me, you two had the most talented teams on paper going into this era so definitely a deserving final two.

Both of you hold advantages in different areas, Erving/Bird are a handful but so are the Malones. I do like the impact of Bobby Jones in this series, and I think putting Jones on Bird was smart, as Erving does so much of his damage in the paint and Malone can at least make somewhat of a difference closer to the basket defensively rather than on the perimeter.

As much as I love SamBone's talent up front, I do question how Malone/Malone are going to operate together, which was one my major concerns against Snake last round. However, I feel Karl Malone is going to have his way with Bird and Moses has a huge advantage over Laimbeer anyway you slice it. I think having a major post presence is so valuable in a finals series, there are times where perimeter players simply can't create against defenses in the half court, and that's when you just have to throw it to your big down low and your big should be able to either create something, take a higher percentage shot closer to the bucket or get to the line. That's where I feel SamBone has the advantage.

I'm not sold on Karl Malone being used to his full potential if he's expected to take a lot of mid range jumpers, but that doesn't stop him from attacking the basket and he clearly holds a massive strength advantage on Larry Bird. I do think Ruland is being underrated as a key member of BlackIce's bench (could even be used more for his grit on one of the Malones), but Sikma/English are unreal players to have off the bench in this era. I also question SamBone saying that BlackIce has no post presence, as both Bird/Dr. J did plenty of damage there. It speaks volumes about the talent of these teams that I haven't even brought up Richmond/Mullin, but I think they both have pretty simple roles on their teams and that's to provide secondary scoring/shooting. SamBone lacks floor spacing, which is a problem and makes Mullin a more valuable part of the equation. Gus Williams, Alex English and every other starter for him lacked range out to the 3. When you have two bigs that are that dominant inside, you need more options on the perimeter, and for all Mo Cheeks brings defensively and as a leader, I think SamBone may have been better suited going with a guard that could knock down 3s.

Often when you have teams this talented, they lack perfect balance, and it may be the hardest thing to achieve when you build stacked teams. Both teams have strengths that far exceed some of the best teams we've seen thus far in the competition (BlackIce's combination of Bird/Dr. J and SamBone's inside presence in Moses/Karl), but both have distinct weaknesses. I'm going to have to vote for SamBone here in another coin toss, as I feel his inside presence will overwhelm BlackIce and he has the defensive capabilities to limit Bird to some extent. Also feel Sikma/English are valuable pieces of the equation in giving SamBone the advantage. BlackIce should be pretty proud of the team he built though, and I could definitely see him getting votes in this matchup (honestly my favourite team on paper in this era).

[SamBone]

sorry, don't want to hold things up, i will only point out a few points quickly (you know me, I have to)
- ICE stresses how Richmond offers spacing and is a 3 point threat but Mullin is not
Richmond's selected seaosn, he made .4 3's a game. He made 33 (on 90 attemtes) in 79 games played.
Mitch averaged 17.5 shots per game (1.1 were from 3). So 6% of his attempts came from beyond the arc

Mullin made .6 3's a game in my selected season. He made 34 (on 97 attempts) in only 60 games played.
Mullin attempted 15.4 shots per game (1.6 were from 3). Slightly over 10% of his shots were from deep

So Mullin actually was shooting more 3's and at a higher rate then Mitch.
And if ICE plans on using his 2nd best rebounder by a long shot beyond the arc to allow Doc J to try and post up Karl Malone or Bill Laimbeer to post up Moses. I am ok with that.

- passing, ICE has stressed how great his passers are (Bird and Doc were great passers for forwards. But when he keeps saying "by far" he must not look into the numbers. Chis Mullin would have the 2nd most assts on ICE's starting lineup. And Larry and Doc combined barley edge out Mo. I think you are way underestimating Mo Cheeks playmaking (an amaizing 32.3 asst%) and Chis Mullin who was a better playmaker in selected seasons then Dennis Johnson who is supposed to lead ICE's half court offense.