Is Kevin Garnett a defensive anchor?

[Geaux_Hawks]

You aren't taking in the consideration of other great defenders that the Spur's had when they won those 3 titles. Yes, Duncan became the anchor of those teams, but those teams weren't weak defensively either. To say KG wasn't an anchor defensively is absurd. KG has never had average defensive supporting cast's to play with.

Duncan's best defender that has played with him post-Duncan is probably Manu Ginobili. Ginobili is a SG though and his defensive impact isn't as large as a big.

I will concede that Duncan probably has a stronger defensive cast over the years, but it's not that significant. The gap between Garnett's and Duncan's team DRtgs are quite large and I think that is mainly due to Tim Duncan's greatness as a player more than anything else. He was just an absolute beast during his prime anchoring a defense.

It is very significant. Bruce Bowen has made 8 All-Defensive team, Malik Rose has a career 99.8 defensive rating, Manu was great, and as you have already conceded, Duncan has had better defensive help.

[ahonui06]

ahonui, ever heard of Bruce Bowen?

And defensive schemes/coaching make a huge impact in team Drtg. That seems to be slipping under the radar as you guys debate teammates.

Defensive schemes/coaching can only go so far. Players play the game and execute the plan. Tim Duncan was a defensive anchor while Kevin Garnett wasn't. Garnett is a great defensive player, but he just wasn't a guy patrolling the paint or clogging the middle and altering shots.

[Geaux_Hawks]

ahonui, ever heard of Bruce Bowen?

And defensive schemes/coaching make a huge impact in team Drtg. That seems to be slipping under the radar as you guys debate teammates.

Thank you.

[ahonui06]

You aren't taking in the consideration of other great defenders that the Spur's had when they won those 3 titles. Yes, Duncan became the anchor of those teams, but those teams weren't weak defensively either. To say KG wasn't an anchor defensively is absurd. KG has never had average defensive supporting cast's to play with.

Duncan's best defender that has played with him post-Duncan is probably Manu Ginobili. Ginobili is a SG though and his defensive impact isn't as large as a big.

I will concede that Duncan probably has a stronger defensive cast over the years, but it's not that significant. The gap between Garnett's and Duncan's team DRtgs are quite large and I think that is mainly due to Tim Duncan's greatness as a player more than anything else. He was just an absolute beast during his prime anchoring a defense.

It is very significant. Bruce Bowen has made 8 All-Defensive team, Malik Rose has a career 99.8 defensive rating, Manu was great, and as you have already conceded, Duncan has had better defensive help.

His teammates helped somewhat, but they aren't the difference. THe difference is that Tim Duncan would clog the interior, alter shots, and patrol the paint. He was the prototypical defensive anchor for a franchise. KG just wasn't that type of player.

[Geaux_Hawks]

So Boston all of a sudden became a better defense because Kendrick Perkins was anchoring them defensively?

[ROR]

THe difference is that Tim Duncan would clog the interior, alter shots, and patrol the paint. He was the prototypical defensive anchor for a franchise. KG just wasn't that type of player.

This is correct. KG was not that type of player.

Duncan patrolled the paint, protected the rim, blocked shots, and altered shots, like one of the all time great centers.

[ahonui06]

So Boston all of a sudden became a better defense because Kendrick Perkins was anchoring them defensively?

Well their team went from worst to first because they added 2 other all-stars to their team in 2008 (Allen & Garnett). A bunch of veterans also joined that team to go ring chasing. That was a major factor in an overall improvement in defense. Obviously, KG made the defense better, but when Perkins was traded to OKC at the deadline it really hurt the Celtics' defense. They just weren't the same out there because they didn't have a defensive anchor.

[Geaux_Hawks]

But Allen, Sam Cassell, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, James Posey never had a Defensive rating below 100 except for 07-08 and all of them really wasn't known for defense even before then.

[Geaux_Hawks]

The Celtics ended up being 2nd in defensive rating as a team last year despite Perkins playing a hand full of games.

[semi-sentient]

There's a lot more to it than just Garnett joining the Celtics. For starters, Pierce missed half the prior season, and the only other guys that were somewhat steady for the Celtics were Gerald Green, Al Jeff, and Delonte West. Kendrick Perkins was only get around 22 MPG, so while he was solid defender he wasn't getting the minutes to have enough of an impact -- and let's face it, when you're FC partner is Al Jeff then you're in bad shape.

Rondo came in and was already a decent defender in his first season. He's quick and while not a great man defender it doesn't matter when you have KG and Perkins backing you up. Ray Allen has always been a solid defender, and when you put all of that together in addition to the motivation those 3 guys had upon coming together, well, they were pretty fantastic.

Oh, and they hired a guy named Tom Thibodeau that off-season. I think he had a little something to do with that improvement as well.

Anyway, that 2006-07 Celtics team was a wreck. They had lots of injuries and bad chemistry, and they really didn't have the pieces to be anything but an average at best defensive team. What's funny is that despite all of those issues, they still managed to have that team playing average defense. They were ranked 16/30, compared to the Wolves who were 21/30 that same season with Garnett playing 76 games.

Edit: Ooops, didn't mean to call Rondo tall... lol. I also forgot to mention James Posey, who at the time was a solid defensive player.

[Geaux_Hawks]

There's a lot more to it than just Garnett joining the Celtics. For starters, Pierce missed half the prior season, and the only other guys that were somewhat steady for the Celtics were Gerald Green, Al Jeff, and Delonte West. Kendrick Perkins was only get around 22 MPG, so while he was solid defender he wasn't getting the minutes to have enough of an impact -- and let's face it, when you're FC partner is Al Jeff then you're in bad shape.

Rondo came in and was already a decent defender in his first season. He's quick and tall, and while not a great man defender it doesn't matter when you have KG and Perkins backing you up. Ray Allen has always been a solid defender, and when you put all of that together in addition to the motivation those 3 guys had upon coming together, well, they were pretty fantastic.

Oh, and they hired a guy named Tom Thibodeau that off-season. I think he had a little something to do with that improvement as well.

Anyway, that 2006-07 Celtics team was a wreck. They had lots of injuries and bad chemistry, and they really didn't have the pieces to be anything but an average at best defensive team. What's funny is that despite all of those issues, they still managed to have that team playing average defense. They were ranked 16/30, compared to the Wolves who were 21/30 that same season with Garnett playing 76 games.

But according to ahonui06, those things really don't make a really big difference.

[Geaux_Hawks]

It's funny how KG has an average defensive rating of 97 since joining Boston, but Duncan has a 99 and the Celtics has statistically had a better defense than SAS the last 4 years.

[ahonui06]

But Allen, Sam Cassell, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, James Posey never had a Defensive rating below 100 except for 07-08 and all of them really wasn't known for defense even before then.

Rondo was essentially a rookie when KG joined and Posey has always been known for defense. Perkins was playing next to Al Jefferson so obviously when KG comes alongside you the DRtg will improve.

I'm not saying KG was a bad defender, he just wasn't a defensive anchor like Tim Duncan. It's not that bad to be a tier below the GOAT PF.

[Doctor MJ]

I mean, from 2005-7 the wolves were somewhere between 10th and 17th and the league in DRTG, which ranks them comparable to the smush parker Lakers and the run/gun suns. you'd expect better out of an anchorous player, no?

According to RAPM numbers, star defensive player typically have an impact of under 5 points per 100 possessions. Meanwhile the difference between the best & worst offenses in the league is in excess of 10 points per 100 possessions. So bottom line is that one player simply doesn't take worst-talent-in-the-league defense and make them elite.

[ahonui06]

It's funny how KG has an average defensive rating of 97 since joining Boston, but Duncan has a 99 and the Celtics has statistically had a better defense than SAS the last 4 years.

Let's just compare the two of them since Duncan entered the NBA. Obviously DRtg isn't the end all be all defensive stat, but at least it's better than nothing.

Regular Season Individual DRtg
1998 - Duncan: 95 -- Garnett: 103
1999 - Duncan: 91 -- Garnett: 97
2000 - Duncan: 95 -- Garnett: 99
2001 - Duncan: 94 -- Garnett: 99
2002 - Duncan: 96 -- Garnett: 101
2003 - Duncan: 94 -- Garnett: 98
2004 - Duncan: 89 -- Garnett: 92
2005 - Duncan: 93 -- Garnett: 99
2006 - Duncan: 94 -- Garnett: 98
2007 - Duncan: 94 -- Garnett: 101
2008 - Duncan: 97 -- Garnett: 94
2009 - Duncan: 100 -- Garnett: 98
2010 - Duncan: 101 -- Garnett: 101
2011 - Duncan: 100 -- Garnett: 95

Regular Season Team DRtg
1998 - Duncan: 99.4 (2nd) -- Garnett: 107.1 (23rd)
1999 - Duncan: 95 (1st) -- Garnett: 101.5 (11th)
2000 - Duncan: 98.6 (2nd) -- Garnett: 103.4 (12th)
2001 - Duncan: 98 (1st) -- Garnett: 103.7 (16th)
2002 - Duncan: 99.7 (2nd) -- Garnett: 105.3 (15th)
2003 - Duncan: 99.7 (3rd) -- Garnett: 103.8 (16th)
2004 - Duncan: 94.1 (1st) -- Garnett: 99.7 (6th)
2005 - Duncan: 98.8 (1st) -- Garnett: 106.6 (15th)
2006 - Duncan: 99.6 (1st) -- Garnett: 104.5 (10th)
2007 - Duncan: 99.9 (2nd) -- Garnett: 107.9 (21st)
2008 - Duncan: 101.8 (3rd) -- Garnett: 98.9 (1st)
2009 - Duncan: 104.3 (5th) -- Garnett: 102.3 (2nd)
2010 - Duncan: 104.5 (8th) -- Garnett: 103.8 (5th)
2011 - Duncan: 105.6 (11th) -- Garnett: 100.3 (2nd)

Postseason
1998 - Duncan: 100 -- Garnett: 108
1999 - Duncan: 92 -- Garnett: 97
2000 - Duncan: N/A -- Garnett: 103
2001 - Duncan: 96 -- Garnett: 98
2002 - Duncan: 94 -- Garnett: 109
2003 - Duncan: 92 -- Garnett: 102
2004 - Duncan: 96 -- Garnett: 94
2005 - Duncan: 101 -- Garnett: N/A
2006 - Duncan: 107 -- Garnett: N/A
2007 - Duncan: 98 -- Garnett: N/A
2008 - Duncan: 99 -- Garnett: 99
2009 - Duncan: 110 -- Garnett: N/A
2010 - Duncan: 107 -- Garnett: 99
2011 - Duncan: 102 -- Garnett: 96

[colts18]

Tell me why the 2003 Mavericks with 3 awful (Dirk, Nash, Finley) plus LaFrentz finished ahead of KG's Wolves defensively with a supposed defensive anchor? Dwight Howard had a crap supporting cast and still finishes in the top 3.

[semi-sentient]

08-09 is interesting. Garnett missed just over 30% of the season and the Celtics were still the 2nd best defensive team in the league in terms of dRtg.

[Geaux_Hawks]

But Allen, Sam Cassell, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, James Posey never had a Defensive rating below 100 except for 07-08 and all of them really wasn't known for defense even before then.

Rondo was essentially a rookie when KG joined and Posey has always been known for defense. Perkins was playing next to Al Jefferson so obviously when KG comes alongside you the DRtg will improve.

I'm not saying KG was a bad defender, he just wasn't a defensive anchor like Tim Duncan. It's not that bad to be a tier below the GOAT PF.

But Posey was just a solid defender, Rondo hasn't really came close to playing as good defense as he did in 07-08, and Al Jefferson & Perkins played quite well together defensively the year before.

[ahonui06]

But Allen, Sam Cassell, Paul Pierce, Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, James Posey never had a Defensive rating below 100 except for 07-08 and all of them really wasn't known for defense even before then.

Rondo was essentially a rookie when KG joined and Posey has always been known for defense. Perkins was playing next to Al Jefferson so obviously when KG comes alongside you the DRtg will improve.

I'm not saying KG was a bad defender, he just wasn't a defensive anchor like Tim Duncan. It's not that bad to be a tier below the GOAT PF.

But Posey was just a solid defender, Rondo hasn't really came close to playing as good defense as he did in 07-08, and Al Jefferson & Perkins played quite well together defensively the year before.

I don't think you watched the Celtics in 2006-2007 if you think Jefferson & Perkins played quite well together defensively. That year the Celtics had Pierce injured and a bunch of D-Leaguers/scrubs on their roster. There is a reason the Celtics set the franchise record for most consecutive losses that season. They were just plain bad.

[Geaux_Hawks]

08-09 is interesting. Garnett missed just over 30% of the season and the Celtics were still the 2nd best defensive team in the league in terms of dRtg.

He still played 70% of the season