FAQ: Nowitzki vs Malone, Garnett & Barkley

[WillC]

Putting the record straight on Nowitzki vs Malone, Garnett & Barkley.

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/08/nowitzki-vs-barkley-garnett-malone.html

Comments welcome. Let the debate begin!

[Doormatt]

I didn't read the whole article, but it seems your rankings are based mostly off of titles and team success. That just makes very little sense.

Dirk is good, very good, often underrated, but he's not better than KG or Malone. I think he's better than Charles though.

[Doormatt]

On KG:

He's also proved over the years that you wouldn't want the ball in his hands at clutch time and that he can't lead his own team past the first round of the playoffs.

Sorry, but this just reeks of ignorance. I mean, do you not think the Celtics were KG's team? What more does he have to do? Being the best player, while being the emotional leader and defensive anchor isn't enough?

[WillC]

The rankings are based off 9 other publications' rankings, which take on board a whole range of criteria to establish who is the 'greatest' of all-time. Obviously team success plays an important part (after all, it is a team game) but so do other accolades such as All-NBA selections, statistics, legacy, etc.

[34Dayz]

KG really never had any good teams in Minni, the one year they did have some minor talent he did lead the team somewhere.

He is hard for me to judge because we've all seen how a signifcantly past his prime KG did with the Celtics... so he has proven that with a decent cast he can contend.

The KG to Boston situation really reminds me of the Gasol to LA one.

Gasol never really had a decent/solid cast in Memphis so he was putting up empty stats kind of like KG in Minnesota, then he go's to LA with Kobe/Lamar/Artest/Bynum etc.. and bang titles.

Just go's to show that you shouldnt judge individual players by titles because winning rings is mostly about luck + supporting casts.

[Jonny Blaze]

This all going to be a moot point in 5 years.

Dirk isnt done being an elite player.

The rest of those guys are finished being elite players.

If the Mavs win another title....this isnt even a debate anymore.

Even if they dont, and the Dirk continues to be an ALL NBA performer over the next 3 or 4 years....it will put him squarely ahead of the rest of these guys.

[Jonny Blaze]

KG really never had any good teams in Minni, the one year they did have some minor talent he did lead the team somewhere.

Thats not true at all.

Im tired of hearing KG fans saying this.

Its a complete lie.

The Timberwolves were damn good while KG was there.

You dont win 50 games in the Western Conference for multiple years and make the playoffs for 8 straight years unless you are pretty damn good.

If you listen to Kevin Garnett fans they would have you believe that he played with nothing but garbage in Minnesota and that the T-Wolves were going 39-43 to 44-38 every year.

Winning 50 games while having to play the Mavs, Lakers, Spurs, Kings multiple times a year means you are not a punk.

The Problem with the Wolves was that KG wasnt good enough to elevate his teams past those other elite teams.

He never won in the playoffs until he went to the much weaker eastern conference.

[ahonui06]

People just don't want to put DIRK ahead of Malone, Barkley, & KG because they still view him as a 'choker', 'soft' or a 'white Euro'.

People are just generalizing DIRK based on two playoff performances (2006 Heat & 2007 Warriors).

No one ever says KG or Malone are choke artists even though they don't raise the bar in the playoffs like DIRK does. Malone was a career playoff underachiever and KG plays right about the same as his regular season levels. The only player that stepped up in the playoffs was Charles Barkley.

[34Dayz]

@Blaze : Honestly what good teammates did KG have?

Wally World, way past his Prime whats his name.. with the braids, and old Sam Cassell..?

I am not a TWolves expert but I am pretty sure he never had a team legitimately good enough to contend for a Title.

Why is it hard to except/understand that great Players still generally need great Teams to win championships.

[ahonui06]

Look at DIRK's 2006 Finals team and tell me it was amazing.

KG's 2004 team was just as good as that one, but he couldn't even reach the Finals until he teamed up with legendary Celtic Paul Pierce and a a sharpshooting Ray Allen.

[34Dayz]

Cmon Ahounui...

KG in 06.. who was his second best player?

A one year from retirement Spree who was averaging 17 points on 40% shooting?
He did average 19ppg in the PS but on bad efficiency 52%TS and was a bad defender.

Sam Cassell was great in the RS and shot pretty well in the PS but he only averaged 16ppg

Who else did that have? Wally was only giving them 10ppg and basically the rest of the cast in the playoffs was giving 2-3ppg and one or two players around 4-7.

KG led the team in scoring/rebounding/assists/block/steals everything.

Maybe they had "some talent" but the 11 Mavs look like the Dream Team compared to them.

[ahonui06]

Cmon Ahounui...

KG in 06.. who was his second best player?

A one year from retirement Spree who was averaging 17 points on 40% shooting?
He did average 19ppg in the PS but on bad efficiency 52%TS and was a bad defender.

Sam Cassell was great in the RS and shot pretty well in the PS but he only averaged 16ppg

Who else did that have? Wally was only giving them 10ppg and basically the rest of the cast in the playoffs was giving 2-3ppg and one or two players around 4-7.

KG led the team in scoring/rebounding/assists/block/steals everything.

Maybe they had "some talent" but the 11 Mavs look like the Dream Team compared to them.

DIRK had bad teams too at the beginning of his career. Everyone has bad teams.

KG had great teams, but he just couldn't get it done as the man because he doesn't have the same offensive skillset as DIRK.

Take a look at DIRK's 2006 Finals team and tell me they had any business in the Finals.

[joeyAdaMan]

Cmon Ahounui...

KG in 06.. who was his second best player?

A one year from retirement Spree who was averaging 17 points on 40% shooting?
He did average 19ppg in the PS but on bad efficiency 52%TS and was a bad defender.

Sam Cassell was great in the RS and shot pretty well in the PS but he only averaged 16ppg

Who else did that have? Wally was only giving them 10ppg and basically the rest of the cast in the playoffs was giving 2-3ppg and one or two players around 4-7.

KG led the team in scoring/rebounding/assists/block/steals everything.

Maybe they had "some talent" but the 11 Mavs look like the Dream Team compared to them.

DIRK had bad teams too at the beginning of his career. Everyone has bad teams.

KG had great teams, but he just couldn't get it done as the man because he doesn't have the same offensive skillset as DIRK.

Take a look at DIRK's 2006 Finals team and tell me they had any business in the Finals.

you are really comparing the teams dirk has had to pre celtics KG teams?

[ahonui06]

Cmon Ahounui...

KG in 06.. who was his second best player?

A one year from retirement Spree who was averaging 17 points on 40% shooting?
He did average 19ppg in the PS but on bad efficiency 52%TS and was a bad defender.

Sam Cassell was great in the RS and shot pretty well in the PS but he only averaged 16ppg

Who else did that have? Wally was only giving them 10ppg and basically the rest of the cast in the playoffs was giving 2-3ppg and one or two players around 4-7.

KG led the team in scoring/rebounding/assists/block/steals everything.

Maybe they had "some talent" but the 11 Mavs look like the Dream Team compared to them.

DIRK had bad teams too at the beginning of his career. Everyone has bad teams.

KG had great teams, but he just couldn't get it done as the man because he doesn't have the same offensive skillset as DIRK.

Take a look at DIRK's 2006 Finals team and tell me they had any business in the Finals.

you are really comparing the teams dirk has had to pre celtics KG teams?

Yes.

Look at the 2006 Mavs roster that got to the Finals.

[joeyAdaMan]

i'll check it out

[joeyAdaMan]

still better then any twolve KG team

[Jonny Blaze]

I am not a TWolves expert but I am pretty sure he never had a team legitimately good enough to contend for a Title

So what exactly are you saying?

If would agree with you.
None of the Minnesota teams centered around Kevin Garnett were ever championship caliber teams.

That is completely different from what you said here:

KG really never had any good teams in Minni, the one year they did have some minor talent he did lead the team somewhere.

Im telling you...(and anyone else) that is not true at all The Timberwolves were damn good back in the day.
This is their year by year record.
97-98 45-37
98-99 25-25
99-00 50-32
00-01 47-35
01-02 50-32
02-03 51-31
03-04 58-24
04-05 44-38
05-06 33-49
06-07 32-50

To reiterate....you dont win 50+ games four different times in the Western Conference unless you are pretty damn good.

@Blaze : Honestly what good teammates did KG have?

Are you kidding me with this question?

Chauncey Billups,
Wally Szerbiack (who KG played with in his prime),
Sam Cassell,
Latrell Sprewell,
Troy Hudson (averaged 23 ppg and 7 apg against Lakers in 2003 playoffs...you will not find any Mavericks with that sort of stat line from a playoff series since maybe 2003)
Stephon Marbury
Tom Gugliotaa

What else does a player need?

Thats just as much as Tim Duncan or Dirk had on their teams.

Are you saying the only way a star player can be successful and show his true worth if he plays for a stacked team like Boston with three other ALL Star/Hall of FAME players?

Put Tim Duncan with those teamates and the T-Wolves are consistently winning 55 games a year and going past the first round more then once.

[joeyAdaMan]

jason kidd steve nash michael finley antoine walker jerry stackhouse jason terry keith van horn nick van exel

[ahonui06]

still better then any twolve KG team

DIRK's best teammate in 2006 was either Jason Terry or a past his prime Jerry Stackhouse. That's no different than Latrell Sprewell, Sam Cassell, or Wally Szczerbiak.

[joeyAdaMan]

shaq can dunk way better than troy murphy