Will you be dissapointed if this team finishes under .500

[Back2back2back]

and 4th behind Boston, NY, and Tampa again??

[Parataxis]

Obviously. But the prize is next season, not this one.

[Osiris]

I would've been if this team was doing it fielding such winners as Patterson, Davis and Rivera.

Now I don't care where we finish - I just want to see some of the kids get real reps and prep them for next year.

[kwamebargnani]

finishing under .500 probably means batters players have not performed, so I'd be very disappointed.

[dagger]

Obviously. But the prize is next season, not this one.

We look further away from the prize than next season. After Romero, the pitching staff is inconsistent to mediocre. The bullpen is atrocious. We have poor defence at three positions (third, left field, second), a weak bench, and Lind and to a lesser extent Bautista have lost a bit of their mojo, and in Bautista's case his composure, as the season has progressed.

Sure, there's a lot of hope, but the young players need time to develop, and the holes have to be filled. There is no second base solution in the high minors, so this is one that will have to be filled by free agency or trade. First base is a concern because Lind has regressed over the course of the summer (hitting .210 in July and under .200 in August).

Maybe our current situation looks worse because of roster churn as we expose more minor leaguers to the bigs, but I am not as optimistic yet about next season as some of you. Obviously, I could become more optimistic as AA makes signings, trades etc in the offseason.

As for the OP's question, I won't be disappointed. I expected some regression after losing Downs, Marcum, Buck, etc, but it was for a good cause.

I am disappointed for the paying customer that is expected to shell out for these August/September games where the team seems to lose its edge as its fate becomes entrenched. It's not easy going to the stadium to watch games where we run out an anemic offence like we have lately.

[Randle McMurphy]

We look further away from the prize than next season. After Romero, the pitching staff is inconsistent to mediocre. The bullpen is atrocious. We have poor defence at three positions (third, left field, second), a weak bench, and Lind and to a lesser extent Bautista have lost a bit of their mojo, and in Bautista's case his composure, as the season has progressed.

No, and I'm not even going to waste my time explaining how off-base most of this whining is.

Anyway, I won't care at all if the team finishes under .500 because it doesn't matter one bit to contending in the future. If they do, great. But the Jays have had enough good Septembers over the last decade that didn't get them anywhere in the following season.

[Schad]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

And oh no, we have a weak bench. Surely that will be the death of our ambitions, just as it has been for the Phillies (who own the best record in baseball), whose current bench players have the following OPS+ for the year:

John Mayberry (though he's now starting most games): 131.
Ben Francisco: 92.
Ross Gload: 51.
Brian Schneider: 42.
Michael Martinez: 50.
Pete Orr: 56.


So one good hitter who is consequently transitioning to play every day, one merely below-average one, and four atrocious hitters. They are 83-46. It's almost as if one's bench is extremely inconsequential in the grand scheme.

[Nocturne]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

And oh no, we have a weak bench. Surely that will be the death of our ambitions, just as it has been for the Phillies (who own the best record in baseball), whose current bench players have the following OPS+ for the year:

John Mayberry (though he's now starting most games): 131.
Ben Francisco: 92.
Ross Gload: 51.
Brian Schneider: 42.
Michael Martinez: 50.
Pete Orr: 56.


So one good hitter who is consequently transitioning to play every day, one merely below-average one, and four atrocious hitters. They are 83-46. It's almost as if one's bench is extremely inconsequential in the grand scheme.

While I agree with the sentiment, I think Phillies aren't the greatest example to use here. This just shows that having several elite starters in your rotation can cover up almost any weaknesses.

Anyway, I used to care more about having a better record earlier on this season, but at this point, I just want to see our younger players show some more development.

[Avenger]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

And oh no, we have a weak bench. Surely that will be the death of our ambitions, just as it has been for the Phillies (who own the best record in baseball), whose current bench players have the following OPS+ for the year:

John Mayberry (though he's now starting most games): 131.
Ben Francisco: 92.
Ross Gload: 51.
Brian Schneider: 42.
Michael Martinez: 50.
Pete Orr: 56.


So one good hitter who is consequently transitioning to play every day, one merely below-average one, and four atrocious hitters. They are 83-46. It's almost as if one's bench is extremely inconsequential in the grand scheme.

While I agree with the sentiment, I think Phillies aren't the greatest example to use here. This just shows that having several elite starters in your rotation can cover up almost any weaknesses.

Anyway, I used to care more about having a better record earlier on this season, but at this point, I just want to see our younger players show some more development.

That's not true at all, most teams if not all teams have **** benches. If you have a good player sitting on your bench, you trade him for an upgrade or to fill a hole in your lineup. I can't think of anything that's more inconsequential to a team's success like Schad said than the fricken Bench.

[Homer Jay]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

And oh no, we have a weak bench. Surely that will be the death of our ambitions, just as it has been for the Phillies (who own the best record in baseball), whose current bench players have the following OPS+ for the year:

John Mayberry (though he's now starting most games): 131.
Ben Francisco: 92.
Ross Gload: 51.
Brian Schneider: 42.
Michael Martinez: 50.
Pete Orr: 56.


So one good hitter who is consequently transitioning to play every day, one merely below-average one, and four atrocious hitters. They are 83-46. It's almost as if one's bench is extremely inconsequential in the grand scheme.

I think it boils down to probably best utilizing your bench for defensive replacements late in tight games. Maybe keep one established hitter with decent splits, or if you have some money, two leftie/righties for situational hitting.

[dagger]

We look further away from the prize than next season. After Romero, the pitching staff is inconsistent to mediocre. The bullpen is atrocious. We have poor defence at three positions (third, left field, second), a weak bench, and Lind and to a lesser extent Bautista have lost a bit of their mojo, and in Bautista's case his composure, as the season has progressed.

No, and I'm not even going to waste my time explaining how off-base most of this whining is.

Anyway, I won't care at all if the team finishes under .500 because it doesn't matter one bit to contending in the future. If they do, great. But the Jays have had enough good Septembers over the last decade that didn't get them anywhere in the following season.

I predicted a regression to .500 and they are living up to it.

They have a number of major holes to fill, and until they do, they won't contend even if there are two wildcards berths next season.

[dagger]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

if you mean Hill, he's not a Blue Jay any more. Right now, Johnson is. And if Hill or Johnson come back next season, they are offensive liabilities. No one wants to move Hecheverria or Escobar to second, so it's a position of weakness until there is a solution.

[dagger]

Maybe it's a relative thing, but having Teahan as a prime reserve is as comforting as having John Rauch as your closer. It would be nice to have one guy who can pinch hit or pinch run late in a game and then stay in the lineup without being an automatic out.

[Schad]

How does one of the better defensive second basemen in the league over the last two years qualify as "poor defense" at the position?

if you mean Hill, he's not a Blue Jay any more. Right now, Johnson is. And if Hill or Johnson come back next season, they are offensive liabilities. No one wants to move Hecheverria or Escobar to second, so it's a position of weakness until there is a solution.

No, I mean Kelly Johnson, who is one of the better defensive second basemen in the league. As for him being an offensive liability, he's about-league average this season at his position, and last year was elite-level for second base. Stop clutching your goddamned pearls.

[number15]

Obviously. But the prize is next season, not this one.

yeh.... thats not happening

[Parataxis]

Maybe it's a relative thing, but having Teahan as a prime reserve is as comforting as having John Rauch as your closer. It would be nice to have one guy who can pinch hit or pinch run late in a game and then stay in the lineup without being an automatic out.

Doesn't Rajai (when he's not injured) fill that role?

[Michael Bradley]

Nothing that happens now, other than injury, will impact the Jays for 2012, so while I would like a .500 or better finish, it is not a huge deal.

The team needs an elite hitter at 1B (Pujols, Fielder, Votto if available, etc), a front of the rotation starter, and a relief ace. Lind is not an MLB calibre 1B offensively, and at this point you can't go into next season with Thames or Snider in LF since we don't know what we have there. Basically, EE is probably the best option at 1B/DH/LF right now and that's not going to cut it.

Rotation-wise, only Romero is a safe bet. Morrow has to put it all together and Cecil is improving, but I think you want the latter two as the bottom two or #3/4 in the rotation.

AA has work to do but if Rogers ia ready to spend then the Jays have the combination of tradeable assets and money that can make things happen.

[Homer Jay]

Nothing that happens now, other than injury, will impact the Jays for 2012, so while I would like a .500 or better finish, it is not a huge deal.

The team needs an elite hitter at 1B (Pujols, Fielder, Votto if available, etc), a front of the rotation starter, and a relief ace. Lind is not an MLB calibre 1B offensively, and at this point you can't go into next season with Thames or Snider in LF since we don't know what we have there. Basically, EE is probably the best option at 1B/DH/LF right now and that's not going to cut it.

Rotation-wise, only Romero is a safe bet. Morrow has to put it all together and Cecil is improving, but I think you want the latter two as the bottom two or #3/4 in the rotation.

AA has work to do but if Rogers ia ready to spend then the Jays have the combination of tradeable assets and money that can make things happen.

If Perez is in the rotation next year we need to seriously address the LHP situation in the pen as well. Everyone we project to likely being in the pen next year: Janssen, Litsch, Villy, Carreno, maybe McGowan, and maybe Alvarez are all righties. Perhaps Carlson is ready to go for next year but more likely he has a McGowan season in the minors next year. Ledezma just showed he is either not ready or a AAAA player, Lewis looks just as bad, and the organization doesn't have anybody else close.

[Evermore]

If we're going to miss the playoffs...

I don't care if it's by 1 game or 100

[akakalakin]

Good to see this team quitting in true Toronto fashion.