Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[Komodo]

So does anyone think the entire season will be wiped out? I think it's possible, but I would hope that both the players and owners are smarter than that. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think we'll see games this season at some point.

[Laowai]

So does anyone think the entire season will be wiped out? I think it's possible, but I would hope that both the players and owners are smarter than that. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think we'll see games this season at some point.

I think it is highly likely that the season will be wiped out.
The other scenario is the players give in at the last moment the only way that will happen is the mid and low end players say to hell with it. These players are unlikely to have long careers so losing a year could dramatically affect there financial future.

[ItsDanger]

If you think corporate tax incentives are bad, ask him how much each individual in Canada is subsidized( using the term as he defines) by the govt. You will be shocked! There is no comparison. Yet this is ignored.

[Courtside]

If you think corporate tax incentives are bad, ask him how much each individual in Canada is subsidized( using the term as he defines) by the govt. You will be shocked! There is no comparison. Yet this is ignored.

Are you asking me, or from24ft?

Subsidized is still different than a reduction in tax. Most Canadians live entirely subsidized lives since they don't pay in as much tax as they cost the government in services. The small number of very large tax payers are in fact subsidizing the larger majority of people which I would guess to cover 98% of everyone posting here and probably 90% of Canadian citizens in general.

Anyways - nobody is subsidized by government. The government is simply redistributing the money of other taxpayers and businesses. In order to be subsidized, the size of your tax credit would have to be larger than what your payable tax would be. If you pay $30 mil in tax but get a rebate of $10, then it's a reduction and not a subsidy, since the money is not taken from others and redistributed to you - you are simply keeping more of what you earned and paying less.

[from24ft]

If you think corporate tax incentives are bad, ask him how much each individual in Canada is subsidized( using the term as he defines) by the govt. You will be shocked! There is no comparison. Yet this is ignored.

Why would I be shocked? There is nothing wrong with subsidizing our people.

Subsides, by their very definition, are given to those that DO NOT HAVE. The word means to augment, to help out. It's not some sort of a cash bonanza, where citizens and corporations jump for dollar bills that are within their reach. It's not healthy for any competitive business OR an individual to be dependant on subsides. They should only be there for those that need them.

The playing field for business should be equal, regardless of how many politically connected friends you have. I want big business to pay the same rates as small businesses. None of this special treatment BS. If you are a big fish, you should be happy that you are more competitive.

EDIT: BTW, in the old days subsides where what artists and the handicapped asked for. Minorities and disadvantaged groups fought for them. These days, the corporations have no shame, and are pushing to the front of the line to get as many handouts as they can.

[YogiStewart]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Maurice Evans saying the @NBA and @NBAPA are $7.6 billion apart is truly frightening

yikes.
finito, kids.

[from24ft]

Anyways - nobody is subsidized by government. The government is simply redistributing the money of other taxpayers and businesses. In order to be subsidized, the size of your tax credit would have to be larger than what your payable tax would be. If you pay $30 mil in tax but get a rebate of $10, then it's a reduction and not a subsidy, since the money is not taken from others and redistributed to you - you are simply keeping more of what you earned and paying less.

A reduction can certainly be a subside, I think your logic is confusing you.

IF you OWE 30 million in taxes, and REDUCE that by 50% due to subsides, you saved 15 Million and tax payers have subsidized you to the tune of 15 Million dollars on your tax bill by offering that option. This is really simple.

EDIT: Also, in your above example, you will not get a $10 rebate from the government (if you owe 30 Million in taxes), the way you imply, you will simply owe $29,999,990.00 in taxes.

EDIT2: Interesting approach by the French elite in response to their countries revenue shortage. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK4siPRd8nw&feature=share[/youtube]

[Fairview4Life]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Maurice Evans saying the @NBA and @NBAPA are $7.6 billion apart is truly frightening

yikes.
finito, kids.

Is that over 10 years or something?

[from24ft]

Yes, its over 10 years. The proposed length of the CBA.

[tecumseh18]

Also, Ive had a LOT of experience in the financial industry in Canada, US, and elsewhere, so maybe I could be wrong on this, but not likely. YOU would have to prove in a rational manner how XOM is paying an obscene tax rate in the other countries that actually have lower rates than the US. Good luck on that one.

FYI, but my father, a right-wing Albertan if ever there was one, worked at a high level both at Imperial and Exxon around the world for over 25 years. He told me Exxon would charge Imperial for "research" to the tune of $500 mill a year (or some number like that this was a few decades ago and I can't remember the exact number), although Imperial always did its own research and didn't rely on the mother corporation at all. Of course, the intention was to reduce or eliminate taxable income in a relatively high tax jurisdiction (Canada).

Take that for what it's worth.

[edit] Oh, and has someone posted our guy Malcolm Gladwell's take on the strike?

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/687 ... ba-lockout. The money shot:

The big difference between art and sports, of course, is that art collectors are honest about psychic benefits. They do not wake up one day, pretend that looking at a Van Gogh leaves them cold, and demand a $27 million refund from their art dealer. But that is exactly what the NBA owners are doing. They are indulging in the fantasy that what they run are ordinary businesses — when they never were. And they are asking us to believe that these "businesses" lose money. But of course an owner is only losing money if he values the psychic benefits of owning an NBA franchise at zero — and if you value psychic benefits at zero, then you shouldn't own an NBA franchise in the first place. You should sell your "business" — at what is sure to be a healthy premium — to someone who actually likes basketball.

[Courtside]

IF you OWE 30 million in taxes, and REDUCE that by 50% due to subsides, you saved 15 Million and tax payers have subsidized you to the tune of 15 Million dollars on your tax bill by offering that option. This is really simple.

No. If you pay/owe $30 mil and save 50%, you are now paying $15 mil. No one else is paying you the reduced $15 mil from someone else's pocket and no one else is paying an extra $15 mil to the government to make up for it. The government simply takes less.

You make it sound like taxes always add up to some number and if one person pays less, someone else has to pay more to achieve that total (ie: subsidize the person getting a discount). This is how property tax works, not income or corporate tax. The total number isn't known beforehand and changes all the time depending on how much business and income the economy generates. The government can agree to discount or reduce anyone's taxes for whatever reason, if they feel there is an overall positive result that is generated in a different way, ie: creating/protecting jobs, protecting an industry from foreign manipulation, spur private investors to spend their own money to stimulate the economy, etc...

You know all this of course, but prefer being obtuse about it in order to continue pushing your narrative.

[tecumseh18]

No. If you pay/owe $30 mil and save 50%, you are now paying $15 mil. No one else is paying you the reduced $15 mil from someone else's pocket and no one else is paying an extra $15 mil to the government to make up for it. The government simply takes less.

You're not only obtuse, you're wrong. Funny how those two things often go together.

It was back in the Joe Clark government in 1980 that the federal government started accounting for such amounts as "tax expenditures", so that they showed up on their (our) financial statements as subsidies. Which they clearly are.

Whatever words are used by individual posters on the RealGM Raptor board to describe these amounts are irrelevant. Words can be made to mean anything you want. The fact is that the federal government, in a move recommended by public finance experts who value transparency in the nation's accounts, treats them as subsidies.

[from24ft]

Courtside, I don't know what you are putting in your tea, but you are very wrong, and obfuscating common sense at every turn. Either you are incredibly rich, or incredibly stupid. Perhaps the right wing malo-drama is your cup these days, I would throw that stuff out and get off it cold turkey, because it is a paid for agenda. No one wants to be a lackey, much less someone of your age, naiveness doesn't look so flattering on you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHcLCSA75mE[/youtube]

EDIT: We are seeing first hand what sort of laws and policies that are passed when big corporations are allowed to influence elections. The people in the USA have no rights, the corporations are setting all their policies. 90% of voters were against bank bailouts.

[Courtside]

Funny how you have to resort to insults. I have avoided that and I have also avoided trying to smear you by associating you with nutjobs in youtube videos.

I never said those who are subsidized are freeloaders - just clarifying the ways the dollars get divided out which does mean that the majority are subsidized by the few. It can't be debated that a person who pays $900K in tax isn't subsidizing 50 people who may almost no tax at all - but I never said it was wrong. That's how it should work, within reasonable limits.

I never said that the rich shouldn't pay taxes, only that tax breaks aren't inherently as evil as you've been painting them. I'm just trying to offer some measure of balance to what you've been posting, which is from a different extreme.

[from24ft]

Funny how you have to resort to insults. I have avoided that and I have also avoided trying to smear you by associating you with nutjobs in youtube videos.

I never said those who are subsidized are freeloaders - just clarifying the ways the dollars get divided out which does mean that the majority are subsidized by the few. It can't be debated that a person who pays $900K in tax isn't subsidizing 50 people who may almost no tax at all - but I never said it was wrong. That's how it should work, within reasonable limits.

I never said that the rich shouldn't pay taxes, only that tax breaks aren't inherently as evil as you've been painting them. I'm just trying to offer some measure of balance to what you've been posting, which is from a different extreme.

What do you find insulting? The fact that your common sense on what constitutes a tax and what is a subside is lacking? Or the fact that I think you are being naive?

You say that you are simply providing a balance? Why? I am not interested in your balance courtside, you are not the mother Teresa of this forum. I am interested in YOUR OPINIONS, I couldn't give a rats ass about any extreme. What I post here is what I believe in, I therefore was under the impression that you have the beliefs that you post about, and hence my conclusion of your naivete.

As for me posting nutjobs... lol, let me be the judge of who is a nutjob, because in this corporate media environment (Mudroch) nutjobs are all over the air, you got Beck, you got O'Riley, you have ALL the candidates of the Republican right. These people are nutjobs. If I think Jesus, is going to bestow a planet to me in some intergalactic federation, chances are, I am nutjob. If I hate blacks, immigrants, Muslim and gays, that too will check that I am nutjob!

In fact the last study that was done on education and political views found that the more educated you were the more likely you would be a progressive. My views are progressive, if you hang around with people that give this sort of thought some time, you will find that my views are very common. It's true they are mostly shared by professors and the educated elite, but when you look at all the challenge to the status quo, they come from our colleges/universities. All protests that have been brought about change have started or been fostered by academia. Not for the benefit of corporations/or those in POWER, but for the benefit of us ALL. Those of us who are educated are expected to speak up.


EDIT: Here is a nutob for you.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9lEd1ruz9o[/youtube]

EDIT2: P. T. Barnum is quoted as saying "There's a sucker born every minute". Some of us try to educate that sucker, others try to exploit him.

[Courtside]

What do you find insulting?

Oh I don't know... maybe the words stupid, lackey or that I must be drinking something in my tea? You're telling me these weren't intended as insults?

You say that you are simply providing a balance? Why? I am not interested in your balance courtside, you are not the mother Teresa of this forum. I am interested in YOUR OPINIONS, I couldn't give a rats ass about any extreme. What I post here is what I believe in, I therefore was under the impression that you have the beliefs that you post about, and hence my conclusion of your naivete.

As for me posting nutjobs... lol, let me be the judge of who is a nutjob, because in this corporate media environment (Mudroch) nutjobs are all over the air, you got Beck, you got O'Riley, you have ALL the candidates of the Republican right. These people are nutjobs. If I think Jesus, is going to bestow a planet to me in some intergalactic federation, chances are, I am nutjob. If I hate blacks, immigrants, Muslim and gays, that too will check that I am nutjob!

See - again with trying to align me with people I have nothing to do with. And somehow I'm not able to inject an opinion, but you're able to speak down to me and let you decide who a nutjob is?

In fact the last study that was done on education and political views found that the more educated you were the more likely you would be a progressive. My views are progressive, if you hang around with people that give this sort of thought some time, you will find that my views are very common. It's true they are mostly shared by professors and the educated elite, but when you look at all the challenge to the status quo, they come from our colleges/universities. All protests that have been brought about change have started or been fostered by academia. Not for the benefit of corporations/or those in POWER, but for the benefit of us ALL. Those of us who are educated are expected to speak up.

More speaking down to someone you know nothing about. You don't know who I hang out with, where I travel to or what my beliefs are. I'm not positing my beliefs on here or have any desire to justify them to some crackpot on a basketball website. How about you get off that high horse and just talk like a regular poster - equal with everyone else - and put your opinions out there as that, because you don't have a monopoly on facts or truth.

EDIT2: P. T. Barnum is quoted as saying "There's a sucker born every minute". Some of us try to educate that sucker, others try to exploit him.

Right, because those are the only 2 options? The world is not as black and white as you perceive.

[from24ft]

I have provided numbers and facts (you can dispute them or their sources), but you have provided zilch. I don't care if they come from your right wing sources, by all means provide them so that they can at least have the chance to be disputed. (and show that you have given this some thought, rather than a knee jerk reaction)

You too can jump me for my logic. ...and yes, I think your logic is horrible. I think you are naive, and I fell the naive make the best lackeys.

Why do you value my opinion so much? Yes, I think you are a bit misguided. That does not mean that you and I as neighbours could not work together to put up a fence. However, I am quite sure we would not see eye to eye on subsides and taxes. Still I would prefer if you did not worship me, the words in the message above imply that you feel my opinion holds more weight than average.



If this was any other time, I would say none of this is relevant. However, considering the dramatic nature of this economic crisis, and the image of our neighbour to the south as being a drain on the Chinese economy. I think these are issues that must be talked about. We MUST discuss why certain selectors are making out like bandits, having historic profits, while tax revenue from their success is circumvented. Why is the burden so heavy on the poor? Is it because they have no one to speak up for them? (Why has our increase in technology not fostered this utopia that sci-fi writers used to write about? Who is getting the benefit?)

from24ft wrote:

EDIT2: P. T. Barnum is quoted as saying "There's a sucker born every minute". Some of us try to educate that sucker, others try to exploit him.

Right, because those are the only 2 options? The world is not as black and white as you perceive.

LOL, you were the sucker in my example. I am doing my best to educate you. (my sense of humour, maybe a bad joke)

To the above quotation, the world is black and white. You are either a sucker or you are not.

[Courtside]

Why do you value my opinion so much? However, I am quite sure we would not see eye to eye on subsides and taxes. Still I would prefer if you did not worship me, the words in the message above imply that you feel my opinion holds more weight than average.
...
LOL, you were the sucker in my example. I am doing my best to educate you. (my sense of humour, maybe a bad joke)
...
To the above quotation, the world is black and white. You are either a sucker or you are not.

And this is all the proof anyone needs that you're not worth debating with.

[from24ft]

LOL, are you trying to say you actually debated me? I pushed you around with heavy equipment all over this thread.

IF you need to make your EXIT due to the P.T. Barnum quote, which I tried to explain to you, do it. Beat it. Stop wasting people's time. Show your sources, don't get all emotional trying to play the sympathy card on a subject that you clearly lack comprehension of.

[whoknows]

LOL, are you trying to say you actually debated me? I pushed you around with heavy equipment all over this thread.

IF you need to make your EXIT due to the P.T. Barnum quote, which I tried to explain to you, do it. Beat it. Stop wasting people's time. Show your sources, don't get all emotional trying to play the sympathy card on a subject that you clearly lack comprehension of.

Although you might never get it, you are the one that lost this "debate".
Equality and distribution of wealth that you talk about works in an utopia/academic world, unfortunately there is a big disconnect from reality.

I think we all agree that we all have to provide for the sick and old that need help. No question about it.
Problem seems to appear when a few of us ("right wing nuts") expect that the capable and lazy get to share the work as well, not only the benefits.

How do you "left wing nuts" propose to entice the lazy ones from getting off the social assistance and go to work - by enhancing their benefits?
Corporations are being forced by strong unions (whose only purpose nowadays is to protect the lazy) to move elsewhere. Look at the US South where corporations have been enticed by taxes and loans to open shops. In contrast, US North controlled by strong communist unions (see Michigan, Ohio) are getting ghost towns. Result is that many hard workers are forced to move South for work and the "give-me" guys are blaming everybody but themselves (while expecting a government check or a high paying job to contact them).
In Canada when Bob Rae and your beloved NDP was the leader in Ontario, many companies left. Lucky for us they were only one term disaster. Wait until NDP gets a hold of Federal Canada and prepare to see the consequences.

It is a competitive world out there and the sooner you figure that one out, the better off you are. Like kids, all of us need a "candy" to bring the best in us. Cut the incentives (candy) for which we all (workers, corporations) have to compete for, and as a result you get communism (everybody is equally poor and stupid).