Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[Fairview4Life]

It's like you honestly believe "unions" are the difference between the US South and the US North. Or that the US South is some kind of prosperous land of bootstraps and honey and the north is a barren wasteland of unionized laziness. I'm not sure how you square that with the list of GDP Per Capita by State, for example, or just GDP per state even:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... tes_by_GDP

The US South is not a great example of prosperous economic activity. Turns out a hell of a lot more than just union and collective bargaining strength goes into numbers like that.

[Courtside]

I wouldn't have painted it in such a left-vs-right way, whoknows, but the the way I see it is that one side tries to make it possible for everyone to achieve as much as they're capable of, while the other side want to pull those who are capable down to their level so that everyone is equal. Neither system works the way it's ideally supposed to and is susceptible to corruption, so you have to find some workable middle ground. You can only take away so much from 'haves' before the 'have-nots' outpace the ability of the 'haves' to help help them, or they disappear before they become a 'have-not' themselves.

It's true that some of the 'haves' aren't shouldering their fair share and it's equally true that some of the 'have-nots' are perfectly willing to let the rest of the world support them - or actually demand it - and both of these are equally unfair to the majority who are willing to find a working balance.

[whoknows]

It's like you honestly believe "unions" are the difference between the US South and the US North. Or that the US South is some kind of prosperous land of bootstraps and honey and the north is a barren wasteland of unionized laziness. I'm not sure how you square that with the list of GDP Per Capita by State, for example, or just GDP per state even:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... tes_by_GDP

The US South is not a great example of prosperous economic activity. Turns out a hell of a lot more than just union and collective bargaining strength goes into numbers like that.

GDP per capita is not a perfect measure either - many rich in California/Texas (although they are South )will outbalanced the many poor, etc.

There is no perfect place and system, they call all be and are abused. What maters is to keep cool heads and see what works and what does not while trying to bring the best in each of us.

[whoknows]

I wouldn't have painted it in such a left-vs-right way, whoknows, but the the way I see it is that one side tries to make it possible for everyone to achieve as much as they're capable of, while the other side want to pull those who are capable down to their level so that everyone is equal. Neither system works the way it's ideally supposed to and is susceptible to corruption, so you have to find some workable middle ground. You can only take away so much from 'haves' before the 'have-nots' outpace the ability of the 'haves' to help help them, or they disappear before they become a 'have-not' themselves.

It's true that some of the 'haves' aren't shouldering their fair share and it's equally true that some of the 'have-nots' are perfectly willing to let the rest of the world support them - or actually demand it - and both of these are equally unfair to the majority who are willing to find a working balance.

I agree with everything you said, we all have a tendency to respond to extremes with other extremes , law of action & reaction I guess.

[Fairview4Life]

It's like you honestly believe "unions" are the difference between the US South and the US North. Or that the US South is some kind of prosperous land of bootstraps and honey and the north is a barren wasteland of unionized laziness. I'm not sure how you square that with the list of GDP Per Capita by State, for example, or just GDP per state even:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... tes_by_GDP

The US South is not a great example of prosperous economic activity. Turns out a hell of a lot more than just union and collective bargaining strength goes into numbers like that.

GDP per capita is not a perfect measure either - many rich in California/Texas (although they are South :wink: )will outbalanced the many poor, etc.

There is no perfect place and system, they call all be and are abused. What maters is to keep cool heads and see what works and what does not while trying to bring the best in each of us.

Seeing what works and what doesn't is certainly a good way to go. Distorting reality or trying to mislead people to say something works and something else doesn't work, is probably not the way to go.

[tecumseh18]

I agree with everything you said, we all have a tendency to respond to extremes with other extremes , law of action & reaction I guess.

Don't weasel out of this. We all have to select our team to support unreservedly. You get to choose one of the following:

1. Soulless corporations closing domestic plants, moving jobs overseas, and bribing politicians to push for free trade so they can sell the products back to the domestic market and cut or eliminate domestic corporate taxes.
2. Lazy, overpaid union workers who can't be fired.
3. Greedy, under-regulated banks who gamble with depositor's money, lose, then get bailed out at public expense. (Or in Canada, oligopolistic banks who gouge their customers with fees, use their market power to take over the insurance and investment industries and thereby enhance their market and political power, and require small business owners to put up personal guarantees for the most mundane loans, totally undercutting the whole principle of limited liability)
4. Pension and mutual funds who force companies to do whatever it takes to maximize profits.
5. Limousine liberals who delight in publicly biting the hand that feeds them, pretending to be all green and progressive but failing in the most rudimentary way to follow through in their personal lives.
6. Utterly corrupt politicians who have been bought and paid for many times over.
7. Uncorrupt wannabe politicians who have no hope of ever getting elected or influencing the public debate whatsoever.
8. Christian right activitists for whom the decision on which politician to give cash and volunteer support to comes down to whether they are sufficiently outraged by gay marriage and a woman's right to choose.

So who's it gonna be? Don't whine, this is the real world, there are no other choices.

I choose "7", much to my wife's continuing dismay.

[from24ft]

Just show me the numbers... I have done it over and over and over again, and you right wing nuts keep on it with your koolaid. Ignoring the facts and the iceburg we are about to hit.

The facts are that these asinine policies, started by your boy Reagan, have destroyed one the greatest countries the world has ever seen. It is now sunk in debt, run into the ground by war criminals like Chaney and silverspoon frat boys like Bush.


...numbers please, just the facts. BTW the laziest people I have ever met have always been on the right, I have never seen so little done for so much. The CEO bonus money for taking on debt is well know leech **** scam to anyone that has followed the corporate world. Imagine actually creating something.

You just don't see enough of this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryy2FZgy_1Y[/youtube]

EDIT: From my corporate experience, I have never seen lazier over compensated idiots than I have on the Cheif Executive level. You guys have no idea how little a man can work, yet get paid so much. It is vomit inducing. I have not known the definition of lazy, till my introduction to Banks and the Corporate world. (That is where I also learned the definition of Greed and Entitlement.)

[Fairview4Life]

Yeah, that's probably not going to get anyone to change their mind.

[from24ft]

You are not going to change their minds. Like the Eurythmics song, " Some of them like to be abused". Hopefully those that read this will know who has their interest at heart.


The problem on the right is no one has any facts/numbers, they just have opinions.


The biggest recipients of welfare in our economy are the corporations. How they got ahead in a line that was filled with cripples, mentally challenged and the underrepresented is anyone's guess.

[from24ft]

As for UNIONS:

Corporations unionize all the time with other corporations to bring about favourable legislation. To create standards that only their membership can accommodate. Corporations share in lobbying money, in legal expenses and in promotion of their agenda's.

This is all fine and dandy, as long as its done by a bunch of suits. They can hold our governments hostage through legislation and regulation.


When working people unionize to get a better wage, its somehow looked as UN-american. Right now the USA has the lowest union membership it has ever had in their recent history. They are near the bottom of all western countries. Both Germany and France have stronger unions, and fare much better by being the creditor nations of Europe (the ones with the most money to lend others). Union's were the reason that America had a strong middle class and why it was considered such an attractive market. The middle class is under attack, while bankers and oil companies steal money out one door, the teachers and firefighters are faulted for their entitlement. This is greed at its finest, and anyone who supports this IMO is just a lackey.

[from24ft]

Look, its quite simple.

Think of the economy as a ball of jobs. All inter-related. You shrink the labour payments into the economy, you have a smaller ball to play with. It's inconceivably that the economy is going to get better if you keep shrinking it by cutting jobs, or payments. This is economics 101, it's very simple.

Shrinking economy = smaller output.

Free trade may be good for corps, that can fly like butterflies to any country they like and set up shop at fractions of the expense and regulation, and still fly back to make the same profits. However margins are shrinking. People only have so much disposable income. Cable subscriptions across the USA have fallen. Having HBO and all these extra ad dons are luxuries.

Shrinking the economy of the USA to make short term profits for a few, is not sustainable economic policy.


Can someone explain to me how the USA is borrowing from China who it helped to put into the 21st century? How is it, that all of USA's industrial capacity got moved to China? And USA TAX PAYER OWES MONEY FOR THIS? How is this not treason?

How is the above not a CLEAR example of corporations controlling a country and looting its tax payer base and selling to what once was the enemy FOR PROFIT, to a few? And at no point is this to the benefit of the USA GOVERNMENT, is the proof not in the pudding? Is this not the best demonstration and example of how corporations can loot and destroy a country like a parasite? Who has power? Who is setting their own tax rates?

I don't want Canada to be like that. We need to keep the power with the Government and the poeple, corporations can not have an edge, by buying favour.

[Courtside]

EDIT: From my corporate experience...

Which is what, exactly? Sounds to me like you never left campus.

[from24ft]

LOL, I hardly ever went to campus. Guys like me beat to their own drum. My experience is all practical. At age 25 I made my own commercial trading software for an exchange. I learned about futures because I needed to have that incorporated in to the software. I also had to integrate all the reuters feeds in real time. In that business information is money, and those that pay the highest price for information execute the fastest trade. BTW I wrote it all from scratch by analyzing the business model.

What about your experience courtside? What have you done besides blundering in logic?

[Courtside]

LOL, I hardly ever went to campus. Guys like me beat to their own drum.

So you first talk about how you and all progressives are educated and such, but that's not you.

My experience is all practical. At age 25 I made my own commercial trading software for an exchange. I learned about futures because I needed to have that incorporated in to the software. I also had to integrate all the reuters feeds in real time. In that business information is money, and those that pay the highest price for information execute the fastest trade. BTW I wrote it all from scratch by analyzing the business model.

So you're what, 26?

What about your experience courtside? What have you done besides blundering in logic?

I'm not the one making claims about my corporate or educational background that I need to back up. Several people on this forum can vouch that I'm a late 30's developer of lighting products who has seen a bit of the world, whereas the way you communicate screams 'living in my parent's basement and have never been to the US or China, but I hate them anyway'.

[from24ft]

LOL, I hardly ever went to campus. Guys like me beat to their own drum.

So you first talk about how you and all progressives are educated and such, but that's not you.

My experience is all practical. At age 25 I made my own commercial trading software for an exchange. I learned about futures because I needed to have that incorporated in to the software. I also had to integrate all the reuters feeds in real time. In that business information is money, and those that pay the highest price for information execute the fastest trade. BTW I wrote it all from scratch by analyzing the business model.

So you're what, 26?

What about your experience courtside? What have you done besides blundering in logic?

I'm not the one making claims about my corporate or educational background that I need to back up. Several people on this forum can vouch that I'm a late 30's developer of lighting products who has seen a bit of the world, whereas the way you communicate screams 'living in my parent's basement and have never been to the US or China, but I hate them anyway'.

LOL, you classless clown, you don't need to do what? You can't put your experience where your mouth is.


I am 38 now, thank you. I did fine in university, I think I am still enrolled. I never finished it. I was making all kinds. I said I hardly went to campus for a reason. Microsoft wanted to hire me, I made it through all phases of their interviews. Stupid me refused them, I could of made all sorts just off their stock.

However, I have done well for myself. I don't owe, and I own my own house. At 38 and single I think that is quite good.

(btw if realgm keeps ip history, my logins will attest to me working for banks, exchanges and billion dollar corps. I know because I posted from work.)

[Courtside]

It doesn't change the fact that you make yourself sound like an inexperienced twerp so yeah, someone was going to call you on all your chest thumping. Microsoft wants to hire all kinds of people, that doesn't mean squat. You made it sound like you've had all kinds of corporate experience and you still haven't backed that up with anything other than "I designed some software and almost worked for Microsoft", which proves what, exactly?

I haven't gone out of my way to make any claims about my experience like you did, so I don't see where exactly you think I need to explain myself?

[from24ft]

It doesn't change the fact that you make yourself sound like an inexperienced twerp so yeah, someone was going to call you on all your chest thumping. Microsoft wants to hire all kinds of people, that doesn't mean squat. You made it sound like you've had all kinds of corporate experience and you still haven't backed that up with anything other than "I designed some software and almost worked for Microsoft", which proves what, exactly?

I haven't gone out of my way to make any claims about my experience like you did, so I don't see where exactly you think I need to explain myself?

I do, I have over 11 years in the corporate environment, at a high operational level. I write the software, so I need to know everything.

You called me on work experience now drop yours.


The things I talk about are quite simple if you follow them, I dont call myself an expert of anything, rather just a person that is interested in "quo vadis", where are we going? I also state my sources, you haven't stated anything other than your fumbling opinion.

EDIT: You also been playing some weak stuff, like the PT Barnum quote.

[Courtside]

I do, I have over 11 years in the corporate environment, at a high operational level. I write the software, so I need to know everything.

You called me on work experience now drop yours.

Writing software is entirely different than owning a business or being an insider into the finances.

38 as well, and doing just fine in business where I develop lighting systems and control technologies. My education was more design based, but like yourself, it has been real world experience and informal education that shaped where I am now.

It's that real world experience that has taught me that the world is far more complex than "black and white" and anyone who claims that it is, is either simply naive or a dangerous tool.

[from24ft]

I do, I have over 11 years in the corporate environment, at a high operational level. I write the software, so I need to know everything.

You called me on work experience now drop yours.

Writing software is entirely different than owning a business or being an insider into the finances.

38 as well, and doing just fine in business where I develop lighting systems and control technologies. My education was more design based, but like yourself, it has been real world experience and informal education that shaped where I am now.

It's that real world experience that has taught me that the world is far more complex than "black and white" and anyone who claims that it is, is either simply naive or a dangerous tool.

This black and white stuff is just a phrase that you are clinging to, that has come from your mind trying to rationalize an idea that is too difficult for you to understand. No one on this forum thinks what I am talking about is black and white.

My ideas are repeated over and over if you bother to look at independent sources. What you don't agree with you can point out and than we can debate. Don't be pulling this you know more than me crap, when you are struggling with taxes and subsides. I own my own business, so I know. I have a few of them.

Especially calling me on experience, why don't you try to debate my ideas instead? Acting, like the world is just too hard to understand, but not giving any of your own ideas into the debate makes this far from a debate. Just an attack on ideas that you don't fully grasp.

So challenge those ideas. Show me you know something, and then we will have a debate.

EDIT: BTW I do all my own finance, so I know how easy avoiding taxes is. That is why its sometimes best to have a few businesses.

[Courtside]

This black and white stuff is just a phrase...

So challenge those ideas. Show me you know something, and then we will have a debate.

No thanks - there's no benefit to debating with you. You'll just move your goalposts, post some youtube links and not be swayed in the least, nor will I.