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Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level

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Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#1 » by LittleOzzy » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:59 pm

In the midst of their flap with the New York Yankees over rescheduling a game delayed by Hurricane Irene, the Baltimore Orioles signalled their annoyance by letting their communications director do the bulk of the chastising.

“Are we really still talking about this?” Orioles PR boss Greg Bader wrote to ESPN. “We’ve got people out there literally trying to put their lives back together and yet there are some still worrying about a rescheduled game time?”

It’s one thing for a rival GM or manager to spank baseball’s East Coast Ottoman Empire. It’s another thing for the guy who writes the press releases to do it.

The real world equivalent is me sending my 6-year-old over to your house to lecture you about property rights after you parked in the mutual driveway.

At first, the Yankees wanted the game shoehorned into the dead zone between the end of the season and the start of the playoffs. The implication was that fifth-place Baltimore’s feelings about sticking around an extra day to give the Yankees a pointless cool-down contest were irrelevant. It will now be played on one of New York’s two remaining off days.

Just try to put yourself into their shoes — playing baseball nearly every day for a month! That’s more than 80 hours of work. Someone get a clairvoyant to Yankee Stadium — we need to summon the ghost of Cesar Chavez.

This unusual confrontation shows how firmly baseball has returned to one of its upstairs-downstairs moments. The Yankees own the mansion. The Orioles, they seem to feel, are their footmen.

Only one of the eight teams currently in a playoff position sits in the bottom half of MLB’s payroll rankings. The three favourites rolling toward October — the Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox — stand first, second and third on that list. The Angels — still very much in the hunt in the AL West — are fourth.

The outlier squad is the Milwaukee Brewers. They’ve constructed a marvelous season in baseball’s weak sister division, but will lose their biggest star, Prince Fielder, to free agency this winter. So before they turn their eyes back to sports’ greatest beneficiaries of parity, the Green Bay Packers, Wisconsin should enjoy its baseball while it can.

It’s pointless to complain about the lack of a real salary cap (the luxury tax works about as well in baseball as sin taxes work in normal life). However, the reality of the divide will loom larger and larger in this city as we pass through the hopeful phase of the Blue Jays’ development and into an extended period of expectation.

The proposed addition of a wild-card slot in each league will grease that transition enormously. If the American League has five playoff spots open next year, that moment will have arrived in this town. Workmanlike .500 seasons and a few individual star turns will no longer be enough.

For the last decade, the meta questions facing the Jays have operated in a predictable pattern.

Off-season: What’s the GM doing?

Regular season: What did the GM do wrong?


http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/ ... next-level
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#2 » by baulderdash77 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:32 am

I think it's clear that a top flight closer (see Papelbon, John) would improve this team by 5-8 games.

I don't want to spend on starting pitching since we have so much coming up the system. I was a huge fan of signing Jose Reyes but I'm warming up to the idea of Johnson/ Hech to shore up the middle infield.

That really only gives us one of the 1B stars to open up the banks for.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#3 » by hyper316 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:07 am

I'm really starting to think trading for Votto in the off season is the best long term move. trade some A prospects for a MVP player, then break the bank for Yu Darvish

SS Escobar (R)
CF Rasmus (L)
RF Bautista (R)
1B Votto (L)
3B Lawrie (R)
LF Lind (L)
DH Encarnacion (R)
2B Johnson (L)
C Arencibia (R)

Darvish (R)
Romero (L)
Morrow (R)
Cecil (L)
?? Alvarez (R)
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#4 » by baulderdash77 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:18 am

Lind can't play LF. He's terrible out there. If you're going to pick up Votto or Fielder then Lind is either DH or off the team.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#5 » by Wo1verine » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:50 am

I prefer Fielder over Votto just because Fielder only costs money where Votto cost prospects and Money (in a year or two) We can then use some of those pieces that would be used to acquire Votto for a SP like Greinke or Shields who are expected to be available this winter.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#6 » by Wo1verine » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:02 am

Just to add i totally expect Rogers to spend very little money this winter! They'll waste money by over paying Johnson and probably sign a couple RP's they'll also be in on every single player only to not acquire one just like last winter.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#7 » by Lateral Quicks » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:24 am

Votto has an incredible track record, and I'd feel much better throwing huge money at him in a couple years than a guy like Fielder. IIRC Fielder has had some .850ish seasons... don't want to pay him more than Bautista if there's a distinct possibility of that kind of production.

If the Jays think they can compete next year, packaging Lind with a lot of prospects would be a very good move.

As for Johnson, I'd guess-timate he'll cost no more than $2M more per season then Hill. In terms of what this team needs from 2B, Scutaro may actually be a better short-term fix, but Johnson obviously has the much higher upside.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#8 » by There There » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:11 am

Lateral Quicks wrote:
If the Jays think they can compete next year, packaging Lind with a lot of prospects would be a very good move.


With Alonso ready, and Soto killing it in AA, there is no way in hell the Reds take back Lind in a deal for Votto... I don't understand why this idea keeps getting tossed around.

It's more likely that it takes four elite prospects to get Votto... Fielder only requires Rogers to open their pocket book, which they would have to do with Votto anyway in 2013 and beyond.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#9 » by jrsmith » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 pm

There There wrote:
With Alonso ready, and Soto killing it in AA, there is no way in hell the Reds take back Lind in a deal for Votto... I don't understand why this idea keeps getting tossed around.

It's more likely that it takes four elite prospects to get Votto... Fielder only requires Rogers to open their pocket book, which they would have to do with Votto anyway in 2013 and beyond.


Yep. Ripping the farm system apart for Votto considering you will soon have to pay major $, instead of just flat out paying Fielder is an awful idea.

Also throwing Linds name in the trade has absolutely no value, he wont save any of our top prospects just because the reds are getting LIND!!!!! Might as well throw Tallet in the mix.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#10 » by Michael Bradley » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:56 pm

There There wrote:It's more likely that it takes four elite prospects to get Votto... Fielder only requires Rogers to open their pocket book, which they would have to do with Votto anyway in 2013 and beyond.


Votto may be more appealing despite the lost prospects because AA would have the opportunity to sign him long-term prior to him hitting free agency (if Votto is even willing to do that). With Fielder, AA would be paying free agent money, not arbitration + free agent money. Trading for Votto now probably saves the club some money in the long run if they could sign him before he tests free agency.

With that said, while I have no problem trading prospects for MVP candidates, I agree that signing Fielder (or preferably Pujols) and only losing a first or second round pick (depending on where the Jays finish) while keeping those four prospects it would take to get Votto is the more ideal scenario if Votto is likely to test free agency in two years. The reasons I worry about Fielder are defense and the fact that he has had a few non-elite seasons mixed in with his elite ones offensively. Pujols would be the much better signing, but I don't know how realistic that is.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#11 » by jrsmith » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:13 pm

Michael Bradley wrote:
There There wrote:It's more likely that it takes four elite prospects to get Votto... Fielder only requires Rogers to open their pocket book, which they would have to do with Votto anyway in 2013 and beyond.


Votto may be more appealing despite the lost prospects because AA would have the opportunity to sign him long-term prior to him hitting free agency (if Votto is even willing to do that). With Fielder, AA would be paying free agent money, not arbitration + free agent money. Trading for Votto now probably saves the club some money in the long run if they could sign him before he tests free agency.


Actually you could argue that trading away 3-4 of our best prospects who would be controllable + cheap for quite some time and having to replace them with players worthy of playing time on a contender for years to come would negate those savings. That's assuming that some of them pan out.

Also stripping yourself clean to get 1 player could easily prove to be an awful move if/when this team needs to make 1-2 more changes to go all the way.

It makes absolutely no sense to take away so much flexibility in an attempt to save some money, especially in a salary cap free league. They have a golden opportunity and if Rogers EVER plans to step up now is the time. I cant possibly fathom what better situation they would be waiting for.

And if going out and spending on 1 elite player in this situation is too much to handle for Rogers, especially considering they are spending pennies they should do everyone a favor and trade Bautista + Escobar.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#12 » by Hendrix » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:28 pm

I prefer Votto (and Poulos obviously) to Fielder.

Fielder has 22 WAR in 4097 PA's. Thats the same as our current 2nd baseman Kelly Johnson. Do we really want to pay big coin for that?

I realize it's not my money. But we are never going to be be paying big money for a team like Boston, and NYC and getting Fielder just seems like throwing cash at a problem the was NYC and Boston can. We can't win that game. We need to be more efficient in our spending to catch those teams and Fielder on that contract does not seem very efficient to me.

Imo it would really help if we could trade for / or sign a top 3 starting pitcher to help with the depth of our rotation as well. Right now it seems to me that we have 3 starting spots that are completely up in the air and need people to step up and fell them. It seems quite unlikly we have 3 prospects just step up and perform. If we brought in a pitcher we'd only have to fill the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation and that seems a lot more possible to me.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#13 » by jrsmith » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:42 pm

This lineup is nowhere close to being able to compete in the AL east (in b4 someone posts the best possible outcome for every single batter on our team while completely ignoring the lineups that the Yankees/sox have). A starting pitcher won't make this team a contender. While we'r at it let's stop talking about the bullpen and the closer role.

If this team wants to make the playoffs an elite bat is the number 1 priority, and it's not even close. It's also the toughest need by far to try and fill from our organization.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#14 » by jrsmith » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:59 pm

Hendrix wrote:
I realize it's not my money. But we are never going to be be paying big money for a team like Boston, and NYC and getting Fielder just seems like throwing cash at a problem the was NYC and Boston can.


Also yes they are obviously too cheap to ever become NY or Boston but thats where you are missing the point. They have gotten ridiculously lucky with Bautista, not only with his on field production but his contract too. Same with escobar and afew other good players on the team with very reasonable deals.

This isnt a random push for a lets go crazy in spending this offseason. They have a good team at a ridiculously low payroll right now brought together by a very good GM and some very good luck. Its highly inconceivable that they will get another chance like this, anytime soon.

So even if they sign fielder, they still wont even be CLOSE to those teams in terms of payroll.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#15 » by Hendrix » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:23 pm

jrsmith wrote:Also yes they are obviously too cheap to ever become NY or Boston but thats where you are missing the point. They have gotten ridiculously lucky with Bautista, not only with his on field production but his contract too. Same with escobar and afew other good players on the team with very reasonable deals.
I fullly realize that we have very good players on reasonable deals. I'm not sure what point I'm missing here. Those past signings are sunk costs.

This isnt a random push for a lets go crazy in spending this offseason. They have a good team at a ridiculously low payroll right now brought together by a very good GM and some very good luck. Its highly inconceivable that they will get another chance like this, anytime soon.

So even if they sign fielder, they still wont even be CLOSE to those teams in terms of payroll.

So just because we wont be close to NY then that means we should blow a ton of cash inefficiently? We need to keep doing what we've been doing and getting good values imo. Fielder's racked up WAR at the same rate as Kelly Johnson, is projected to become even less valuable in the future, and we should throw 200 million at him? I don't think so.

We have a decent chunk of holes left. I don't think we should blow a ton of cash inefficiently at one spot and then not have as much money at other spots. I'de be cool blowing a ton of cash if it got us a perenial 6+WAR 1b or SP, but I'm just not a fan of spending it on Fielder.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#16 » by There There » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:39 pm

Michael Bradley wrote:
There There wrote:It's more likely that it takes four elite prospects to get Votto... Fielder only requires Rogers to open their pocket book, which they would have to do with Votto anyway in 2013 and beyond.


Votto may be more appealing despite the lost prospects because AA would have the opportunity to sign him long-term prior to him hitting free agency (if Votto is even willing to do that). With Fielder, AA would be paying free agent money, not arbitration + free agent money. Trading for Votto now probably saves the club some money in the long run if they could sign him before he tests free agency.


Votto is owed 17 million in 2013. You would have to presume he is not taking less on a long term deal, considering he is just entering his prime, so I don't think there is any substantial savings.

And to reiterate JR's point, the cost savings evaporates as soon as you figure in the loss of controlling up to four players who could potentially play key roles on this team.

I have no idea who Cincinnati would be interested in, but just about every one of our top prospects would be involved in the discussions, with the possible exception of d'Arnaud since the Reds already have Mesoraco ( unless they think it's worthwhile to take d'Arnuad and then flip either him or Mesoraco for other assets, which it probably would be )

Michael Bradley wrote:With that said, while I have no problem trading prospects for MVP candidates,


And neither do I. If this team was absolutely on the verge and needed only one more key piece, then by all means use the farm system to get that piece.

You have to walk a fine line between using the farm system to acquire other pieces and also using it as insurance to the inevitability of players going down during the season. I don't think it would be efficient asset management to pour numerous elite prospects to acquire Votto when Fielder and Pujols are going to be available on the open market, and the only cost is the money that mostly would need to be thrown at Votto in two years anyhow.

Now, if we took serious runs at Fielder and Pujols and came up short, due to neither player wanting to be in Toronto as opposed to Rogers not agreeing to pay what it would take, then I would look at Votto as Plan B. Acquiring another elite bat has to be Anthopolous' primary objective this off season. I would just prefer that Fielder and Pujols are plan A.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#17 » by There There » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:00 pm

Hendrix wrote:
Fielder's racked up WAR at the same rate as Kelly Johnson, is projected to become even less valuable in the future, and we should throw 200 million at him? I don't think so.


The Red Sox just threw 154 million at Gonzalez, whose career WAR basically amounts to .7 a year more than Fielder.

To me, these differences are not enough to justify not going hard after Fielder. Especially considering the vast upgrade Fielder would be providing this team when you consider it's current options.

Are Pujols and Votto better players ? No doubt. But I don't see Pujols leaving St. Louis, and the cost it would take to get Votto can be used to acquire some of the other pieces you mentioned this team is missing.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#18 » by Luv 4 da game » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:02 pm

hyper316 wrote:I'm really starting to think trading for Votto in the off season is the best long term move. trade some A prospects for a MVP player, then break the bank for Yu Darvish

SS Escobar (R)
CF Rasmus (L)
RF Bautista (R)
1B Votto (L)
3B Lawrie (R)
LF Lind (L)
DH Encarnacion (R)
2B Johnson (L)
C Arencibia (R)

Darvish (R)
Romero (L)
Morrow (R)
Cecil (L)
?? Alvarez (R)


Did he declare he wants to play in the MLB? Seriously never heard about the dude until now.

Checked him out on youtube, his stuff is dirty.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#19 » by jrsmith » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:03 pm

Hendrix wrote:I fullly realize that we have very good players on reasonable deals. I'm not sure what point I'm missing here. Those past signings are sunk costs.


The point you are missing is really way too obvious. If you are holding your breath and wanting to stay around a league low payroll while continually improving the team and filling holes, I would start writing that will.

Also more importantly bautista is in his prime and its completely unknown for how many years he can keep this up. Escobar is entering his prime as well. If our best players were 24 I would understand where some people are coming from, with this current team its ridiculous.

As far as your opinion on Fielder being a bust, and this team having a "decent chunk of holes" left, lets just agree to disagree. Edit: Although regarding the holes left, I would agree with you alot more if we cleaned out our farm to acquire 1 player, instead of simply spending $. Otherwise the team is in a great position.
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Re: Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level 

Post#20 » by TorontoRaptures » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:04 pm

baulderdash77 wrote:
I don't want to spend on starting pitching since we have so much coming up the system.



The point is those players are still likely a couple years away. With Bautista in the middle of his prime years, we need to capitalize now.

Our starting pitching is not good enough to compete right now. Would any of you trust anyone but Romero pitching in a playoff game? As of now, Cecil/Morrow are looking like #4s, and everyone else still has a lot to prove.

We need to sign or trade for at least one front end pitcher if we have any hopes of competing. Even with that new pitcher, we'll need to see improvement out of Cecil/Morrow as well as productivity from another young pitcher.

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