Lockout

Post #421 » by **floppymoose** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:02 pm

Souvlaki wrote: "...the players wait out the owners, which is the only thing this is about now", was over the top bias and disconnected from the reality of the situation to the point of being kind of absurd.

I thought you agreed with me above that this was a test of wills. That's what I was saying. That's what I mean by "the only thing this is about now"... it's a test of who can stand the most pain. You said "I think it's about the owners waiting out the players." Why isn't that the same thing?

Twinkie defense · Post #422 » by **Twinkie defense** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 12:58 am

Or how about Burn the Fish? Union leader Derek Fisher is the poster child for excessive player contracts and not living up to contracts.

The Maestro · Post #423 » by **The Maestro** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 1:32 am

Twinkie defense wrote:Or how about Burn the Fish? Union leader Derek Fisher is the poster child for excessive player contracts and not living up to contracts.

That really is kinda ironic.

Post #424 » by **floppymoose** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 3:35 am

I'm afraid Fish is thinking about his political career. That may bode poorly for the players in this battle.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=a ... lks_080111

Post #425 » by **Sleepy51** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 1:04 pm

The Maestro wrote:That really is kinda ironic.

I wonder if the Lakers feel like Fish hasn't lived up to his contracts?

Left*My*Heart · Post #426 » by **Left*My*Heart** » Thu Sep 1, 2011 5:50 pm

Lakers don't beat the Celtics in 2010 without Fish...

Post #427 » by **floppymoose** » Fri Sep 2, 2011 12:17 am

NBA, players to meet Wednesday

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=m ... ing_083011

Philadelphia 76ers forward Elton Brand(notes) has recently been working out with about 10 of his teammates in Los Angeles just in case the lockout ends soon. Sixers forward Andre Iguodala(notes) postponed a trip to Paris to join his teammates.

“There is a cause for optimism,” Brand said of Wednesday’s meeting, “but we are really far apart.”

Both sides would like to see some progress come from the meeting.

“I’m hoping that the NBA is coming with every intention to make a deal,” Bartelstein said. “At this point, it’s been a lot of, ‘take it or leave it.’ I’m hoping there is a real sense of urgency.”

Twinkie defense · Post #428 » by **Twinkie defense** » Fri Sep 2, 2011 7:25 am

What do the Lakers care, they got him on a discount. How do you think the Jazz feel?

Star-Lord · Post #429 » by **Star-Lord** » Sun Sep 4, 2011 12:19 am

Twinkie defense wrote:What do the Lakers care, they got him on a discount. How do you think the Jazz feel?

Maybe they shouldn't feel too bad, considering they didn't give up a single useful player to acquire him... Although, it's totally Derek's fault his baby daughter developed a rare form of cancer after he helped get the Jazz into the playoffs... What a bum. Those podunk Mormon's should boo the guy louder... They didn't get half of Cohan's money's worth on that one...

Yeah, it's totally Fisher's fault that Rowell and Co. offered him $38 million over six years and a guarantee he would start when the Lakers were only offering less than half the dollar amount and half the years for a dude that they viewed as being a 15-20 minute max kind of role player on their stacked roster.

Hey, wanna guess which franchise has won 17 championships?

Twinkie defense · Post #430 » by **Twinkie defense** » Sun Sep 4, 2011 2:45 am

Sorry but the Lakers rings don't make Derek Fisher a good player.

KevinMcreynolds · Post #431 » by **KevinMcreynolds** » Mon Sep 5, 2011 11:52 pm

I haven't been paying attention to the lockout at all cause it disgusts me...but when is the last time the players and owners have actually met with each other?

turk3d · Post #432 » by **turk3d** » Tue Sep 6, 2011 9:55 am

CCIIIs Hair wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:What do the Lakers care, they got him on a discount. How do you think the Jazz feel?

Maybe they shouldn't feel too bad, considering they didn't give up a single useful player to acquire him... Although, it's totally Derek's fault his baby daughter developed a rare form of cancer after he helped get the Jazz into the playoffs... What a bum. Those podunk Mormon's should boo the guy louder... They didn't get half of Cohan's money's worth on that one...

Yeah, it's totally Fisher's fault that Rowell and Co. offered him $38 million over six years and a guarantee he would start when the Lakers were only offering less than half the dollar amount and half the years for a dude that they viewed as being a 15-20 minute max kind of role player on their stacked roster.

Hey, wanna guess which franchise has won 17 championships?

+ 1

Twinkie defense · Post #433 » by **Twinkie defense** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 12:43 am

You guys are painting yourselves into an absurd corner when you are so in the players' camp and so opposed to the owners that you're making Derek Fisher into a valuable player earning his keep... have fun with that.

Post #434 » by **floppymoose** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 2:17 am

turk3d · Post #435 » by **turk3d** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 12:04 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:You guys are painting yourselves into an absurd corner when you are so in the players' camp and so opposed to the owners that you're making Derek Fisher into a valuable player earning his keep... have fun with that.

Hey Twinkie, if someone offered you 6M a year for dumping garbage would you take it? You know a city job and costing tax payers all that money would be a waste. Well this isn't even taxpayers money here. If you want to say that Fisher wasn't worth it, I don't think you'll get much of an argument from anyone around here. But if you want to say he should have turned it down, that's another thing. This is a capitalistic society (not saying whether or not capitalism is a good thing) just saying.

This is one of the inherent problems in all of pro sports (as well as business in general), it's up to Corporate to make good decisions on employees and what they pay them. You can't really blame someone for taking the money if it's offered (see Barry Zito). It has very little with siding with owners or players, it's just pointing out that when you make a bad decision, it's on you or the one who made it. I think Derek made a good decision for him and his family by taking the money. As a fan, I can't really hold that against him.

Twinkie defense · Post #436 » by **Twinkie defense** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 7:06 pm

If someone would pay me $6 mil per year to dump garbage, I would do it. (Or maybe I would pay someone else to do it and keep the change

). But I don't suppose the Garbage Dumpers Union would want to use me as the face of the organization, because every time someone saw my face they would be reminded what a scam garbage dumpers are perpetuating on us.

Capiche?

Post #437 » by **floppymoose** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 8:36 pm

No, I don't capiche. I can't find anyone here connecting Fisher's contract with any opinion on the lockout. In fact, you are the one who brought up his contract in this thread.

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #438 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 10:38 pm

CCIIIs Hair wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:What do the Lakers care, they got him on a discount. How do you think the Jazz feel?

Maybe they shouldn't feel too bad, considering they didn't give up a single useful player to acquire him... Although, it's totally Derek's fault his baby daughter developed a rare form of cancer after he helped get the Jazz into the playoffs... What a bum. Those podunk Mormon's should boo the guy louder... They didn't get half of Cohan's money's worth on that one...

Yeah, it's totally Fisher's fault that Rowell and Co. offered him $38 million over six years and a guarantee he would start when the Lakers were only offering less than half the dollar amount and half the years for a dude that they viewed as being a 15-20 minute max kind of role player on their stacked roster.

Hey, wanna guess which franchise has won 17 championships?

Fisher said he wanted to be closer to his daughter. He pulled on the heart strings of Larry H. Miller. His daughter was receiving treatment in NY at the time, so LA would obviously be one of the last choices to make.

Post #439 » by **floppymoose** » Wed Sep 7, 2011 11:15 pm

The NFL just negotiated a very owner friendly collective bargaining agreement. So friendly that David Stern keeps holding it out as an example. The NHL lost a full season a few years back, and came out of it with a hard cap. I have to assume you like both of those agreements, twinkie, based on your positions in this thread.

And yet both of those leagues have players who don't earn their contracts. The existence of players who don't earn their contracts doesn't seem to say much about whether the collective bargaining agreement is pro-owner or pro-player.

Twinkie defense · Post #440 » by **Twinkie defense** » Thu Sep 8, 2011 6:06 am

I don't care what agreements the NFL makes and don't care about the NHL full stop. I do think NFL players are more deserving, and NBA players have gotten pretty soft and whiny.

Regarding players who don't earn their contracts like Derek Fisher and how that relates to whether an agreement is pro-player or pro-owner, for me fairness should dictate what you make, not being pro- one side or the other. In practice that is an ideal that is impossible to fully achieve, but I think you can make some judgments and if there are a lot of really bad contracts that is a bad sign. Overall, I would say that NBA salaries are too high, and I don't like the long-term guarantees (which are performance disincentives), but that a small group of players should be making considerably more - not because they got lucky with their contracts but because they deserve it.

In the NFL, most money is in the form of bonuses, and base salaries usually have few guarantees - you can be cut at any time, and you don't get any money that was remaining on your contract. I think that is fair - who in this world gets guaranteed salaries? Whoever they are, they shouldn't get them either. NFL is a brutal sport though - I'm for sizable minimum salaries and lifetime benefits.

Finally, on it's face, if someone is going on about how great Derek Fisher has been? That he represents good value? Turk suggested that David Stern be burned at the stake, and I suggested that Derek Fisher was as much as a symbol of the problems of the League as anyone. And then several people went on to say how valuable he has been as a player, and then - somewhat ironically given that stance - that it's only the teams' fault that he got so much money.

To which I say, good luck with that poster child!