Objective: Josh Smith for a True Center

[Geaux_Hawks]

Outside of drafting a "star" player, I don't think Atlanta could sign a star player. With that said, I think they can win it all without a so called "star" player..

[myrak433]

[quote=" Raptors aren't interested in Marvin Williams as an SF. The contracts don't match up so We'd have to give away a bench player and take on someone like Kleiza.

This trade works

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3umuq6m

[Hawk4Playoffs]

I fail to see how Bargnani is going to guard Dwight or other big men. The line up is great for the regular season but come playoffs this line up won't be very good defensively. It still doesn't address our big man problem.

The raptors love Bargnani... to think they would trade him for marvin... no chance.

[mcfly1204]

I think Smith for Okafor makes a lot of sense for both sides. Okafor is a true post player, all be it a bit limited offensively, and Smith would look great running the floor with CP3. Smith/Zaza for Okafor/Pondexter/2012 2nd. Zaza would need to be added due to the lack of center depth for NOH, Pondexter gives Atlanta a project SF. Though Atlanta appears to take a bit of a hit talent wise, I think the fit makes up for it.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I fail to see how Bargnani is going to guard Dwight or other big men. The line up is great for the regular season but come playoffs this line up won't be very good defensively. It still doesn't address our big man problem.

The raptors love Bargnani... to think they would trade him for marvin... no chance.

I think you should check their board, but we don't need a "Defensive Anchor" to play center. If you actually watch games, you can see that Bargnani is a good enough post defender. His help D is terrible, but guys like Horford and Smith can always cover any mistakes.

You got to realize that the current Hawks play good team D without really having a decent post defender on the floor for 30+ minutes. Then you still have a guy like Collins as well that can give you 6 fouls and physical play.

If post defense is all you want, then Varejao would be great, but the Hawks still lack scoring with him.

[Ruhiel]

I fail to see how Bargnani is going to guard Dwight or other big men. The line up is great for the regular season but come playoffs this line up won't be very good defensively. It still doesn't address our big man problem.

The raptors love Bargnani... to think they would trade him for marvin... no chance.

I think you should check their board, but we don't need a "Defensive Anchor" to play center. If you actually watch games, you can see that Bargnani is a good enough post defender. His help D is terrible, but guys like Horford and Smith can always cover any mistakes.

You got to realize that the current Hawks play good team D without really having a decent post defender on the floor for 30+ minutes. Then you still have a guy like Collins as well that can give you 6 fouls and physical play.

So Marvin it is.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1119367&p=28836030...Locked
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1131047

Back to Smith trades.

If post defense is all you want, then Varejao would be great, but the Hawks still lack scoring with him.

true...

[Ruhiel]

bump?

[#1 pick]

No center who can help is available.

[evildallas]

I suggest either of two trades:
Joe Johnson
future 1st round pick
to Cleveland for
Anderson Varejao
Antwan Jamison

or
Joe Johnson
to Cleveland
Anderson Varejao
Baron Davis

The second 1st variant surrenders a 1st because of the expiring nature of Jamison's deal (greater financial relief). Davis has two years on his deal and has a history of being a malcontent so he doesn't merit a bounty, but he'd actually fit better talent and position wise.

Varejao isn't a true center, but he's long and willing to do the dirty work. Josh would slide to the 3 spot giving us a physical front line especially if we can go up tempo. In theory we'd resign Jamal Crawford for his scoring punch at the 2 spot. Jamison or Davis become 6th man in either deal.

Starting Lineup
Jeff Teague
Jamal Crawford
Josh Smith
Al Horford
Anderson Varejao

And the bench would still have Davis or Jamison, Hinrich for a year unless we trade his expiring deal, Pachulia, and Marvin (unless amnesty clause is used).

Why does Cleveland do it?
They had 2 lottery picks this last year, so they can afford Joe Johnson's contract while they are on rookie deals. The 2 guard is a weak spot for them anyway and adding Joe gives a stable veteran presence to educate the young talent and change the locker room. They get out of Varejao's long term deal which was signed when he was going to be a compliment to Lebron James. Without James they need a more well-rounded big. Johnson could give the team the boost back into playoff contender without years of bottom feeding as they rebuild (like we went through).

[myrak433]

I suggest either of two trades:
Joe Johnson
future 1st round pick
to Cleveland for
Anderson Varejao
Antwan Jamison

or
Joe Johnson
to Cleveland
Anderson Varejao
Baron Davis

The second 1st variant surrenders a 1st because of the expiring nature of Jamison's deal (greater financial relief). Davis has two years on his deal and has a history of being a malcontent so he doesn't merit a bounty, but he'd actually fit better talent and position wise.

Varejao isn't a true center, but he's long and willing to do the dirty work. Josh would slide to the 3 spot giving us a physical front line especially if we can go up tempo. In theory we'd resign Jamal Crawford for his scoring punch at the 2 spot. Jamison or Davis become 6th man in either deal.

Starting Lineup
Jeff Teague
Jamal Crawford
Josh Smith
Al Horford
Anderson Varejao

And the bench would still have Davis or Jamison, Hinrich for a year unless we trade his expiring deal, Pachulia, and Marvin (unless amnesty clause is used).

Why does Cleveland do it?
They had 2 lottery picks this last year, so they can afford Joe Johnson's contract while they are on rookie deals. The 2 guard is a weak spot for them anyway and adding Joe gives a stable veteran presence to educate the young talent and change the locker room. They get out of Varejao's long term deal which was signed when he was going to be a compliment to Lebron James. Without James they need a more well-rounded big. Johnson could give the team the boost back into playoff contender without years of bottom feeding as they rebuild (like we went through).

JJ contract is bad, but it is not that bad because he is still productive. so we are just dumping him for expiring contracts? and giving up a first round pick? it will not happen. and Jamal is not a a good starter with the rest of that line up. he is good off the bench.
we would sux unless teague becomes a D-Rose. I am not convinced he will yet. I believe that team would be better defensively but offensively it would be a disaster.

what the hawks need is a big that has post moves and can score inside and out that is not Varejao..... Pau Gasol would be the perfect fit. I would also like Bargs. unless we are getting a sure fire stud like Howard of course, we can not move our most potentate offensive weapon (JJ).

[evildallas]

^^^ Everyone knows his contract is horrible and will be getting worse before the end. If you wait too long he will be truly untradable and the team sucks right along with him. Moving it for an expiring deal is a GREAT financial deal, but not going to be a good basketball move at all. I'm fine with Gasol, but have little interest in Bargnani. I'm not sure of anyway we could get Howard. I mean even if the season were completely lost and he became a free agent I don't see any CBA that would give the Hawks financial freedom to sign him. And if I'm Orlando I don't trade him under any circumstances. If he takes a big pay cut and walks for nothing then we rebuild, but we don't ease his financial transition for some pieces to be mediocre.

To be honest I don't advocate trading Joe this year either. I think he has a bounce back year and then you might be able to trade him on a statistic high point which will require less painful return. Don't be mistaken though, to deal him before his contract kills the ability to compete you'll have to include a 1st with it (probably an unprotected one).

I also don't advocate trading Josh this year provided there is one. Even if the season gets canceled I would hold him until the trading deadline before dealing. My reasoning is I want to see if he can complete the transition to SF by improving his perimeter game and handle or focuses on being a dominant PF by focusing on playing in the paint. Either one of those things might mean he's worth a big extension to the team or worth more on the trading block. If he stays at his current level of play he'll still be coveted by some, but it will be clear that another long term deal won't be likely here. You deal him before the deadline focusing on getting another swingman and/or picks. Shopping for a big just ain't working. I definitely don't want to trade Al. I just want the coach to acknowledge when he is at a major disadvantage and try to work around it (Dwight Howard or long defense centers).

Given that I don't want to trade any of the big 3, I think it is likely and probably good to wave goodbye to Jamal Crawford. His game will become even more one dimensional as he continues to age and accept that he's a great specialist. Unless we have a soft cap and an owner willing to pay the premium to keep him we can't afford him. Actually even if the new owner is willing he still may not be affordable because of Joe's absurd contract. There's no way to fix the other problems with the team within financial rules/constraints, so 2nd unit scorer may have to be accomplished on the cheap. I still see the key to the team's increased success is Jeff Teague building on his Chicago series and Joe Johnson learning and accepting playing without dominating the ball. Teague needs to be given the starting job as soon as play resumes. If he fails then we know before extending his contract unwisely (see Marvin Williams). If he succeeds then he likely costs us big bucks, but we might be relevant for a couple years as well.

Also, my big point is that I explore doing whatever I can to get rid of Joe before I trade Josh Smith (unless the conditions I set above happen and it becomes time to deal Josh). Being the best offensive player on a team shouldn't get you $125M in compensation. For that you need to also sell tickets, lead the team, perform in the playoffs, and really be the face of the franchise. The Hawks screwed up by paying big bucks to a guy who does none of those things but score. Most everyone realized as soon the contract was announced what a mistake it was. Your only hopes are to bring in someone to fill those roles and then you've merely overpaid for a second fiddle or you add whatever picks and/or players to him to get someone to take him off your hands. You take your step back and then you try again to build it right. Or the third option is you slowly decay or the next half decade into mediocrity or worse and then rebuild when he's finally gone.

[Ruhiel]

To be honest I don't advocate trading Joe this year either. I think he has a bounce back year and then you might be able to trade him on a statistic high point which will require less painful return. Don't be mistaken though, to deal him before his contract kills the ability to compete you'll have to include a 1st with it (probably an unprotected one).

I also don't advocate trading Josh this year provided there is one. Even if the season gets canceled I would hold him until the trading deadline before dealing. My reasoning is I want to see if he can complete the transition to SF by improving his perimeter game and handle or focuses on being a dominant PF by focusing on playing in the paint. Either one of those things might mean he's worth a big extension to the team or worth more on the trading block. If he stays at his current level of play he'll still be coveted by some, but it will be clear that another long term deal won't be likely here. You deal him before the deadline focusing on getting another swingman and/or picks. Shopping for a big just ain't working. I definitely don't want to trade Al. I just want the coach to acknowledge when he is at a major disadvantage and try to work around it (Dwight Howard or long defense centers).

On the contrary Joe Johnson played w/o the ball more than ever. He peaked a while back and has went from using 30% of our possessions (Usage%) to less than 26% this year iirc.

Josh Smith has peaked in the sense that we know where he's best utilized and we've failed to put him in the best positions (baseline, free throw area) because that's center+Al's spot.
Smith is a tweener in the halfcourt. We know he is an SF on defense but he needs a stretch player. Enter Marvin Williams or Joe Johnson at the 3. Mo Evans...

You put him inside you get either at least 1 young stretch 4/5. Key to being a legit 4/5 is you can score on anyone guarding you. Small or big.

“Shooters,” L.D. said. “We need knock-down shooters. Not the guys that are capable of making shots. We need guys that they are open, they get that ball, the opposition is saying, ‘Uh-oh.’ Those type guys.

Problem is we need a "Joe Johnson as a 4-type" for DEFENSE.

Brutal Honesty
Al Horford unfortunately can't score inside and he cant score from outside. Thats what contending teams look for in scoring...
Not to say he isn't a contender for say Chicago or Oklahoma @PF but that's to say, trade Joe, trade Al, trade Marvin, trade them all together. Does not matter we do not currently and we will NEVER have what it takes to compete with AL.

Other teams know he needs a center and wont give us one if they feel it makes us contenders. d.

* know Smith is a major advantage on the baseline and steals, transition. PnR spread offense.
* know Teague + good screen = point paints
* know Joe is a major advantage as a 6'8 Guard and draws a lot of attention.

* know Marvin Williams is a great bully guard and we can force matchups next to a Power 3 off the bench. Know he has underdeveloped in the PnR. Do we recognize our bench advantages? Hinrich playing extended minutes at SG or PG is not an advantage. PERIOD.

Lets be brutally honest.

I just want the coach to acknowledge when he is at a major disadvantage and try to work around it (Dwight Howard or long defense centers).

That's what we need to acknowledge.

Jeff Iso, Joe Iso. Smith baseline. This all happens in spread offense.
So when is Al Horford a [b]major[/u] advantage to our team?

When he makes the All Star Game?