Retro Draft: Winner is Stun704

[captaincrunk]

I thought Iverson hadn't managed to actually play any games. I see now he played a few :/

Also Cuttino Mobley actually does want to play again now. He's in good health and thinks he can play 10-15 MPG on a good team. Just something kind of interesting to know, haha.

[fatlever]

speaking of shooting guards on the edge of retirement... if you look back historically at the games greatest shooting guards you really must appreciate the last decade for the amazing talent at sg. so many great ones aren't eligible because they are still playing out the last days of their careers, but just look at how many top 20 all-time shooting guards we just had the pleasure of watching

1. kobe
2. iverson
3. mcgrady
4. pierce
5. ray allen

thats probably 5 of the top 15 all-time and you could make an argument for vince in the top 20 as well.

[fatlever]

funny enough, by the rules, adam morrison is eligible to be drafted for this one. LOL.

maybe i should move ammo in my championship slot or the single digit slot.

[captaincrunk]

speaking of shooting guards on the edge of retirement... if you look back historically at the games greatest shooting guards you really must appreciate the last decade for the amazing talent at sg. so many great ones aren't eligible because they are still playing out the last days of their careers, but just look at how many top 20 all-time shooting guards we just had the pleasure of watching

1. kobe
2. iverson
3. mcgrady
4. pierce
5. ray allen

thats probably 5 of the top 15 all-time and you could make an argument for vince in the top 20 as well.

Dont forget Terrence Williams!

I guess I'll take Joe Dumars. Cateorgy will be single digits.

He's one of the greatest defenders of all time, and will allow me to keep Dr. J at the SF position where his skills are maximized.

[SWedd523]

I like Dumars next to Cousy. His defense and outside shooting mesh very nicely with the "dish it around" aspect to Cousy's game

[captaincrunk]

I like Dumars next to Cousy. His defense and outside shooting mesh very nicely with the "dish it around" aspect to Cousy's game

and 40 ppg from your backcourt is nothign to scoff at either. Though in all seriousness, if you added up the PPM from our players and gave them minutes based on a rotation chart, you'd easily break 150 ppg. So these numbers will definitely have to be considered within a team context. For example, Will Reggie Miller Score his 20 points on Slam's team? I doubt it. But he'll still get his 12 -15 on 40+% from 3.

I grabbed Mikan and Dumars to give me two of the best defenders of all time. One big, one guard.

[SWedd523]

When I look at teams, I'm not going to go by their personal stats. I mean, Kareem, Ewing, Pippen, and Barry gives you 100 by themselves.


I'm going to look at how they fit their role in the team and how I think their attitudes, styles, etc. mesh within a team.

[captaincrunk]

When I look at teams, I'm not going to go by their personal stats. I'm going to look at how they fit their role in the team and how I think their attitudes, styles, etc. mesh within a team.

This. And a lot of the bigs in the top 100 or so greatest players of all time would be considered undersized by todays standards. But that doesn't mean they couldn't still be NBA players, obviosuly. The talent was there. The size was right for C at the time so that's what they played, no harm done yeah?

I almost wish the NBA was still relatively shorter. It's hard to find talented 7 foot players who don't break every bone in their body every couple years... Means guys like Dwight have almost no competition at C. 45 years ago Boozer would probs be a Center, agree? Disagree? Now a decent Center is a tall doofus who tries to alter shots around the rim and set screens.

But maybe that's just nostalgia.

[SWedd523]

Well actually, the average height these past few years has been lower than at any point since the 85-86 season. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league ... experience


But since you're talking more specifically about big guys, I found a thread somewhere when I was researching Chamberlain for the #2 pick (maybe Inside Hoops) that countered the argument of "Wilt was so dominant because he played against a bunch of 6'6" white guys" with a list of average heights per year of all Centers and the average height in his day was something like 6'9 or 6'10 and that it's only gone up by a inch or so since the NBA started.


I think the lack of height in today's game is the change of style. Back when big men dominated (80's and 90's), the style was much more physical on guards, so having a big man who can dominate the post was a huge benefit. Now that the rules have changed, we're starting to see a ton of small guys dominate the league with only a few highly effective big guys.


To explain, since guards are much more valuable in today's league, they demand much more attention in the high school and college levels and therefore get more development growing up while bigs are just thrown out there and told, "go block some shots and dunk the ball".

[fatlever]

When I look at teams, I'm not going to go by their personal stats. I mean, Kareem, Ewing, Pippen, and Barry gives you 100 by themselves.


I'm going to look at how they fit their role in the team and how I think their attitudes, styles, etc. mesh within a team.

i agree swedd. almost every team will have scorers 10 deep. for me it will be about how those players seemingly would play together. is there a clear style or is it just a collection of names.

[captaincrunk]

Well actually, the average height these past few years has been lower than at any point since the 85-86 season. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league ... experience

I meant specifically pre-80 or so. Like the modern era so to speak.

But since you're talking more specifically about big guys, I found a thread somewhere when I was researching Chamberlain for the #2 pick (maybe Inside Hoops) that countered the argument of "Wilt was so dominant because he played against a bunch of 6'6" white guys" with a list of average heights per year of all Centers and the average height in his day was something like 6'9 or 6'10 and that it's only gone up by a inch or so since the NBA started.

Look at the list of top 100. So many of the great Cs were like 6'7" or some ****. It's weird! Maybe everyone else was huge and **** and boosted the average height?

I think the lack of height in today's game is the change of style. Back when big men dominated (80's and 90's), the style was much more physical on guards, so having a big man who can dominate the post was a huge benefit. Now that the rules have changed, we're starting to see a ton of small guys dominate the league with only a few highly effective big guys.

There just aren't enough big guys that can stay healthy for long, you know?

To explain, since guards are much more valuable in today's league, they demand much more attention in the high school and college levels and therefore get more development growing up while bigs are just thrown out there and told, "go block some shots and dunk the ball".

I don't think they are more valuable at all. The tallest kid in school is usually still the best player for whatever reason or other. Then they end up being small forwards or what have you.

[fatlever]

there is no doubt that today's NBA places much less emphasis on big men than in the past. in the 60s and early 70s the game was still all about bigs. the game revolved around banging the ball down low and letting the guys in the paint fight it out. there was no 3-point line to stretch the defenses and the overall athleticism of the guards and wings was less so you didnt have guards dominating the scoring.

just go look back on all the MVPs over the years. between 1955 and 1986 on two MVP awards were given to guards, once to bob cousey and once to oscar robertson. since 1986 13 guards have won the award.

the aba merger changed everything. the aba didnt have a lot of dominate big men and they had a 3pt line so the aba was more of a guard/wing league where the tempo was up and down and more about athleticism. the nba during that time was still about walking the ball up the court and running set plays to bang the ball down into the post. russell, wilt, kareem, reed, unseld, cowens, those guys still dominated the best teams. but in 1977 when all those up-and-down aba teams merged with the nba and brought that influx of athleticism the league started to change into a game that wasnt just about who had the best center.

sure the 80s still had tons of great centers but the 80s was also when teams started to run and pace and scoring went up and guards like magic, isiah and jordan were just as valuable as the centers (or moreso).

of course in the late 90s we saw another shift in the game as all the teams tried to adjust to the jordan type guards and thats when we saw the knicks/heat type teams try to slow the game down to a crawl and turn it into an ugly foul fest. thank god that era is over and we are back to more movement and scoring. the late 90s early 00s was just brutal.

anyway... what were you two talking about?

[SWedd523]

I meant specifically pre-80 or so. Like the modern era so to speak...... Look at the list of top 100. So many of the great Cs were like 6'7" or some ****. It's weird! Maybe everyone else was huge and **** and boosted the average height?

I won't pretend to know a lot about those older fellas, but I have to think there have been big guys roaming the league for awhile. Sure there are some freaks out there, but of the top 5-10ish Centers of all-time,

Kareem 7'2, Wilt 7'1, Russell 6'10, Shaq 7'1, Hakeem 7'0, Moses 6'10 etc. etc.

All of those guys weren't just super tall, they had a ton of skill. The best one today (Dwight) has long been criticized for lack of post moves. What we're beginning to see is the growth of the power forward (6'8-6'10) as that skilled player while Centers (7 footers) are just big oafish guys playing D

There just aren't enough big guys that can stay healthy for long, you know?

100% agree. I think a lot of these guys are just flat out TOO big. Too much processed (steroid) food has the past few generations getting massive both in stature and musculature. I mean look at the class of 2012. I know this is the first time in a long while it's been top heavy on the Bigs, but only one guy in the top 10 is below 6'7''! Five of them are 6'10'' and taller! And think, these guys are 17-19 right now

I don't think they are more valuable at all. The tallest kid in school is usually still the best player for whatever reason or other. Then they end up being small forwards or what have you.

While that is generally true, it's mostly because they're big and can overpower their opponents. But don't confuse effectiveness with "better". How much development do the big guys get? Hardly any. How much do the guards and wings get? Tons. I know when I played ball in school, we were drilled for hours on skills (dribbling, passing, shooting) while the bigs basically did nothing but box out drills and half assed hook shots.

It's the whole "you can't teach size" thing. Those bigs guys usually START OUT as the big man on campus (how punny) but over time, the guards and wings start to take over. And it shows on the college and, especially, the pro levels. Dwight is the only elite player that isn't perimeter oriented. That speaks volumes

[captaincrunk]

I meant specifically pre-80 or so. Like the modern era so to speak...... Look at the list of top 100. So many of the great Cs were like 6'7" or some ****. It's weird! Maybe everyone else was huge and **** and boosted the average height?

I won't pretend to know a lot about those older fellas, but I have to think there have been big guys roaming the league for awhile. Sure there are some freaks out there, but of the top 5-10ish Centers of all-time,

Kareem 7'2, Wilt 7'1, Russell 6'10, Shaq 7'1, Hakeem 7'0, Moses 6'10 etc. etc.

The older ones I meant. Not Shaq or Moses Malone or even Hakeem.

All of those guys weren't just super tall, they had a ton of skill. The best one today (Dwight) has long been criticized for lack of post moves. What we're beginning to see is the growth of the power forward (6'8-6'10) as that skilled player while Centers (7 footers) are just big oafish guys playing D

I think Dwight's scoring numbers speak for themselves.

There just aren't enough big guys that can stay healthy for long, you know?

100% agree. I think a lot of these guys are just flat out TOO big. Too much processed (steroid) food has the past few generations getting massive both in stature and musculature. I mean look at the class of 2012. I know this is the first time in a long while it's been top heavy on the Bigs, but only one guy in the top 10 is below 6'7''! Five of them are 6'10'' and taller! And think, these guys are 17-19 right now

And most the big guys won't pan out :/

I don't think they are more valuable at all. The tallest kid in school is usually still the best player for whatever reason or other. Then they end up being small forwards or what have you.

While that is generally true, it's mostly because they're big and can overpower their opponents. But don't confuse effectiveness with "better". How much development do the big guys get? Hardly any. How much do the guards and wings get? Tons. I know when I played ball in school, we were drilled for hours on skills (dribbling, passing, shooting) while the bigs basically did nothing but box out drills and half assed hook shots.

The big guys who overpower the others get the attention. If you end up 6'7" (small forward size) you were probably one of the tallest kids through grade school and HS and all that.

It's the whole "you can't teach size" thing. Those bigs guys usually START OUT as the big man on campus (how punny) but over time, the guards and wings start to take over. And it shows on the college and, especially, the pro levels. Dwight is the only elite player that isn't perimeter oriented. That speaks volumes

Mostly because height and skill don't correlate. Very unskilled little guys are just as common, they just don't get on television.

[SWedd523]

The older ones I meant. Not Shaq or Moses Malone or even Hakeem.

bballref has 185 guys listed as 6'8" or taller who played Center from the beginning of the league until 1979. That's a lot considering there were only a fraction of the teams in today's league.

I think Dwight's scoring numbers speak for themselves.

Doesn't change the fact that he has 0 post or counter moves.

And most the big guys won't pan out :/

For reasons that I've mentioned

The big guys who overpower the others get the attention. If you end up 6'7" (small forward size) you were probably one of the tallest kids through grade school and HS and all that.

1. You're confusing attention with development
2. With the way people are growing so much at younger ages, 6'7 doesn't make you a Center anymore. Just go look at the college recruiting numbers over the last few years

Mostly because height and skill don't correlate.

*Not anymore. You can name many more big men from the past generation who were supremely skilled in the post. Nowadays you have.... Al Jefferson? Zbo? Scola? Fact of the matter is we're living in an era where any big man with a baby hook is lauded for his post moves while guys like McHale would laugh them off the court

Very unskilled little guys are just as common, they just don't get on television.

I'm glad you agree that unskilled big men are still a commodity while small guys are forced to work on skills for fear of not having a chance. Size and athleticism trumps skill in today's league.

[LamarMatic7]

No!!!!! I simply hate this. First Rodman gets picked way earlier than I thought and Reggie gets taken just one pick before me (that destroys my plans for having them as starting SG and SF, picking them with 4th and 5th picks). Now I come up with a new plan - Dumars + a great sharpshooter in the SF position with English coming of the bench as the scoring leader for them. Of course once again - Dumars gets picked just one pick before mine!!!! I can't **** stand this. I don't mind Reggie getting picked that much, but I don't know where to find a better defender than Dumars or Dennis.

I just was so so so so happy about the opportunity to pick up another forgotten great, who could challenge Dumars for being the best defensive SG of the 80s... Only to discover that I don't have any of those categories available...FUUUUCK!!!! Still thinking on it, sorry for the wait.

[LamarMatic7]

In fear of losing yet another defensive player, I pick Sidney Moncrief as a 1-teamer.



Criminally underrated player. Only guard to be named The Defensive Player of the Year TWICE. Five All-NBA teams, always gave 100% effort. Perfect player for my team.

[countryboi]

I am torn between selecting a lesser known defender or a another big name scorer.....

[LamarMatic7]

I am torn between selecting a lesser known defender or a another big name scorer.....

Sounds exactly just like the decision I had to make.

[BigSlam]

I wanted to team an offensive PF with the defensive force that is Bill Russell, so with my 5th pick and rounding out my starting 5 I'm going with an inside/outside PF who can post up or step out and drain face up J's. He also has the handle to beat guys off the dribble and is an excellent passer - meaning more open looks for Clyde, Reggie and Hondo.

For my glass cleaner cat, I am selecting:

Chris Webber



Best season:
27.1 points per game
11.1 rebounds per game
4.2 assists per game
1.3 steals per game
1.7 blocks per game