2011-12 Toronto Raptors Trade Ideas Thread Pt II

[Thelonious]

Barring some major overachievement by the Raptors, next season will be a lottery one. I think the play of Bargnani this EuroBasket can be attributed to Italy setting the bar high among other things. Casey needs to set the bar high too if he want Bargnani to be engaged. I don't think Andrea will sacrifice his body down low if the reward is a lottery pick.
I think the theme next season will be aiming for a playoffs spot while not trading away our youth for vets, which is kind of a contradiction and I'm not sure a guy like Bargs has the patience.
But if Casey can get guys to play good defence, and it pays dividends, I can see Bargs playing with more heart, provided we are still in the playoff picture. Bargs will never lead by example, but he needs a good example to follow. Valanciunas will help. Until then, he's just one guy on a team full of role players and inexperienced youth who need direction.
I think when this team starts to smell blood they could do some damage, but they've been the ones smelling of blood lately.
If next season is a wash, it won't be anybody's fault. People don't want BC to trade assets away and Casey's system will probably take more than a year to implement. No point trading Bargnani now, unless it's an Al Horford calibre deal. After EuroBasket, his value has increased as much for us than it has for whatever GM is interested, so that cancels out.

[TDGlenmanor]

I would hate to see us trade Bargs and him end up learning how to rebound and become a complete player elsewhere. I think the most ideal situation is to trade one of Amir or Ed even though it sucks.

I do see Val as our starting 5 of the future. So it's basically up to the best PF out of Bargs/Ed/Amir to get that starting spot, and I have a feeling Bargs will come back a better player to take it.

Unless both Ed and Amir are willing to take a backup role for their career's in Toronto, it won't work out. I have a feeling Amir would be fine but not Ed. I just see so much potential with Davis even though he played limited minutes. He has that old school toughness and I believe he can further develop he can surpass Bargs at this point in his career.

I met Amir once at a chinese restaurant after clubbing one night. Really cool guy, plays his heart out and would embrace a first big off bench type of role(I didn't ask him, just assuming).

Bargs may end up becoming a 2 way, smart, veteran player one day and that would be scary.

Ed may not his heart set on TO, might as well package him with something for a 1 or 3, even though we won't get fair value to what he will become.

[tecumseh18]

I would hate to see us trade Bargs and him end up learning how to rebound and become a complete player elsewhere.

.....

Bargs may end up becoming a 2 way, smart, veteran player one day and that would be scary.

Did you watch any of the FIBA tourney? Bargs is a loser. I'll venture to say that any team he starts on for the duration of his career will LOSE.

[TDGlenmanor]

I would hate to see us trade Bargs and him end up learning how to rebound and become a complete player elsewhere.

.....

Bargs may end up becoming a 2 way, smart, veteran player one day and that would be scary.

Did you watch any of the FIBA tourney? Bargs is a loser. I'll venture to say that any team he starts on for the duration of his career will LOSE.

No I never got a chance to watch any of the tourney, been too busy this summer since I finished school and started my career.

It could be wishful thinking on my part, but still. I'm kind of a positive person.

[SciencePiggy]

Did you watch any of the FIBA tourney? Bargs is a loser. I'll venture to say that any team he starts on for the duration of his career will LOSE.

You mean the tournament where he averaged 22.8pts/7.4boards/1.6blocks? The consensus in the EuroBasket thread seemed to be that Casey needs to bottle that drive if Bargs is going to be successful.

If you replaced Bargs with any other bigman in the tournament do you really think Italy's fortunes would change?

[Silk Wilkes]

Did you watch any of the FIBA tourney? Bargs is a loser. I'll venture to say that any team he starts on for the duration of his career will LOSE.

You mean the tournament where he averaged 22.8pts/7.4boards/1.6blocks? The consensus in the EuroBasket thread seemed to be that Casey needs to bottle that drive if Bargs is going to be successful.

If you replaced Bargs with any other bigman in the tournament do you really think Italy's fortunes would change?

I think a guy like Dirk would have something to say about that no matter what his tourney stats were.

[SciencePiggy]

Did you watch any of the FIBA tourney? Bargs is a loser. I'll venture to say that any team he starts on for the duration of his career will LOSE.

You mean the tournament where he averaged 22.8pts/7.4boards/1.6blocks? The consensus in the EuroBasket thread seemed to be that Casey needs to bottle that drive if Bargs is going to be successful.

If you replaced Bargs with any other bigman in the tournament do you really think Italy's fortunes would change?

I think a guy like Dirk would have something to say about that no matter what his tourney stats were.

I did not say that Bargs was the best big man in the tournament. I'm just not willing to put money on Italy becoming a podium threat if you force Bargs and Dirk/Pau/??? to switch jerseys.

[tecumseh18]

I did not say that Bargs was the best big man in the tournament. I'm just not willing to put money on Italy becoming a podium threat if you force Bargs and Dirk/Pau/??? to switch jerseys.

Italy wasn't that bad a team. Beli was up and down, as per usual. Gallinari could have played better. I didn't say Bargs had bad stats (although < 8 rpg as the starting C isn't great).

I said whatever team he starts for - for the rest of his career - will lose more games than they will win. Do you disagree?

[SciencePiggy]

I did not say that Bargs was the best big man in the tournament. I'm just not willing to put money on Italy becoming a podium threat if you force Bargs and Dirk/Pau/??? to switch jerseys.

Italy wasn't that bad a team. Beli was up and down, as per usual. Gallinari could have played better. I didn't say Bargs had bad stats (although < 8 rpg as the starting C isn't great).

I said whatever team he starts for - for the rest of his career - will lose more games than they will win. Do you disagree?

Based on your singular condition of Bargs being a starter? I completely disagree.

Lets keep with the current swap idea, do you think swapping Pau for Bargs is suddenly going to make Spain a bottom feeder in this tournament?

[tecumseh18]

I said whatever team he starts for - for the rest of his career - will lose more games than they will win. Do you disagree?

Based on your singular condition of Bargs being a starter? I completely disagree.

Lets keep with the current swap idea, do you think swapping Pau for Bargs is suddenly going to make Spain a bottom feeder in this tournament?

Technically, a bottom feeder is a team that feasts on crappy teams. For example, the Raptors were in 2007-08 were a "bottom feeding" team, blowing out the Miamis, Nets and Bucks.

Now, would switching Pau for Bargs - and letting Bargs start and play 35 mpg - worsen Spain? Sure it would. Marc can only do so much. Would they lose more than they win? I'd bet on it.

Here's something written by an objective observer after Italy-France that sums up my feeling:

But, he showed his bad side tonight as well. He couldn't stop anybody inside, be it Noah, Ali Traore, or any variety of driving guard. It almost seemed as if every other scoring play involved him failing defensively in some way, almost canceling out his offensive effectiveness.

The most disappointing thing about Bargnani is that he didn't seem to be a true leader on the court. Most of his scores happened because he beat his opponent in some way, and didn't really involve any other member of the team. He didn't make his team mates better, either. He wasn't really a part of plays that weren't meant for him, and he wasn't much help on the boards. When it came down to the wire, Italy couldn't do much but give Bargs the ball and hope he hit a tough jumper that the entire crowd expected. In the end, Bargnani is still the player that we all think he is. A great scorer, but a terrible defender, and someone who could never be the best player on a successful team.

http://www.raptorshq.com/2011/9/7/24099 ... a-bargnani

[SciencePiggy]

Technically, a bottom feeder is a team that feasts on crappy teams. For example, the Raptors were in 2007-08 were a "bottom feeding" team, blowing out the Miamis, Nets and Bucks.

Fair enough; poor choice of words on my part but you clearly got the intention.

Now, would switching Pau for Bargs - and letting Bargs start and play 35 mpg - worsen Spain? Sure it would. Marc can only do so much.

Agreed.

Would they lose more than they win? I'd bet on it.

Since we are dealing in the hypothetical we are at an impasse. My money would be on Spain remaining a podium threat.

We also disagree on the skill of the rest of Italy. Beli and Gallinari were (as you said) very inconsistent and the rest of the guards were for the most part awful. I can't argue with the article you posted because Bargs didn't suddenly become capable of covering for (in this case bad) perimeter defense. He didn't become a leader, and he didn't prove that he could put a team on his back and win as the #1 guy (but I'd argue he was the reason the games were close.) None of that, however, says that a team featuring Bargs as a starter and say the #3/4 best player cannot win.

[tecumseh18]

None of that, however, says that a team featuring Bargs as a starter and say the #3/4 best player cannot win.

Maybe such a team could win. Let's call it the Dwight Howard scenario. OK, so I was overstating the case. With Bargs in the background as a #3 or #4 option, with a strong C (not necessarily Howard, but Chandler- or maybe even Asik-calibre types), a great rebounding 3 - i.e. a young Marion - and the guards committed to staying in front of their guys, it could conceivably work.

But as an occasional paying customer, I have to say that watching Bargs for the last four years has been generally depressing. I have come to believe he has a negative effect on his team-mates, and the crowd. Watching Italy the last few weeks engendered the same feeling. One of my favourite games this past season was in Dallas, when the Bargs- and Calderon-less Raps beat the Dirk-less Mavs. And it wasn't a fluke win either. The NBA champs simply don't look so good without their best player. The Raps look peppier without their "best player". Dirk makes his team better. That's what a leader does. (Pau the same, but he needs more help. Spain did win the Euro without him in the playoffs four years ago.)

[SciencePiggy]

Don't get me wrong, I haven't been a fan of Bargs' performance in his time in Toronto but I do not see eye-to-eye with the people who are long past ready to dump him for nothing, or worse. I don't want to see guys like Amir playing the entire season banged up because they're forced to spend full-time minutes covering the likes of Howard/Bogut. With the roster as it stands Bargs is not taking away minutes from someone who should be seeing time at center and until that changes (come on down JV!) I'd rather let Casey crack his whip and hope his value rises.

[HSOB SIRHC]

I think I found our future PG

[bboyskinnylegs]

^^ still two years before he's draft eligible, we'd need to get lucky in the lottery

[JamesNaismith]

Wait "Beiber"....that's not Euro is it????

[JamesNaismith]

My dream scenario.....

1. Sign Oden
2. Draft Anthony Davis (if we didn't get #1 overall for Drummond)
3. Trade DeRozan for the draft pick that's Gilchrist and Amir for whatever late 1st rdr lol

Bayless/Jose
Gilchrist/Barbosa
ADavis/JJ
Barg/Davis
Oden/Val

[Mr Swagtastic]

My dream scenario.....

1. Sign Oden
2. Draft Anthony Davis (if we didn't get #1 overall for Drummond)
3. Trade DeRozan for the draft pick that's Gilchrist and Amir for whatever late 1st rdr lol

Bayless/Jose
Gilchrist/Barbosa
ADavis/JJ
Barg/Davis
Oden/Val

Anthony Davis is a PF in the NBA he needs to add more muscle though at 6'10" and 210 lbs (if that) he's going to get pushed around. He's going to have to rely on his athleticism more so then his frame. I wouldn't take him over Drummond or Miller, Barnes or any of the other top rated wings hell James McAdoo looks more like a good solid all around wing that we could use. I don't think Portland lets Oden go cheap unless they know something and if we could get him for under $7-$8 million over 3-4 years then obviously something is wrong. I would rather DeAndre Jordan at this point and time. As for trading DeRozan for Gillchrist it's a gamble that could work out or backfire in our faces bad. I would rather hang onto DeRozan now.

I would move Amir for later first though if Myck Kabongo is available or Gilchrist or maybe a reach of Kris Joesph or William Buford.

[Rapsfan07]

My dream scenario.....

1. Sign Oden
2. Draft Anthony Davis (if we didn't get #1 overall for Drummond)
3. Trade DeRozan for the draft pick that's Gilchrist and Amir for whatever late 1st rdr lol

Bayless/Jose
Gilchrist/Barbosa
ADavis/JJ
Barg/Davis
Oden/Val

Anthony Davis is a PF in the NBA he needs to add more muscle though at 6'10" and 210 lbs (if that) he's going to get pushed around. He's going to have to rely on his athleticism more so then his frame. I wouldn't take him over Drummond or Miller, Barnes or any of the other top rated wings hell James McAdoo looks more like a good solid all around wing that we could use. I don't think Portland lets Oden go cheap unless they know something and if we could get him for under $7-$8 million over 3-4 years then obviously something is wrong. I would rather DeAndre Jordan at this point and time. As for trading DeRozan for Gillchrist it's a gamble that could work out or backfire in our faces bad. I would rather hang onto DeRozan now.

I would move Amir for later first though if Myck Kabongo is available or Gilchrist or maybe a reach of Kris Joesph or William Buford.

No way in hell am I moving DeRozan for Gilchrist. I like Gilchrist a lot, believe me but I don't think he's worth DeRozan. However, I'd gladly move Ed Davis for good all around SF like McAdoo or Gilchrist if they are available AND if didn't already draft an SF with our respective pick. If we're choosing a wing with out pick, then I go Miller. If we choose a big, then as of right now I'm going Drummond. He's a lot less of a project from a skills and physical standpoint.

As for Greg Oden, I'm not sure about that guy... He's extremely talented but seems much too frail to battle down low every night in the NBA. As said above, if I was gonna spend big money on a C, I think it would be DeAndre Jordan or just sign a stop gap vet that can hold it down until Valanciunas arrives. As for a Amir, I wouldn't be looking to trade him. He's a great off the bench big that plays hard every night and should have a role in the future of this team. I think Kabongo will be long gone before the 20th pick or so but if during the season we think we need a late pick, maybe we could organize a deal that sends Barbosa to a contender or Bargnani to a team like Milwaukee...preferably the latter.

[JamesNaismith]

No way in hell am I moving DeRozan for Gilchrist. I like Gilchrist a lot, believe me but I don't think he's worth DeRozan. However, I'd gladly move Ed Davis for good all around SF like McAdoo or Gilchrist if they are available AND if didn't already draft an SF with our respective pick. If we're choosing a wing with out pick, then I go Miller. If we choose a big, then as of right now I'm going Drummond. He's a lot less of a project from a skills and physical standpoint.

As for Greg Oden, I'm not sure about that guy... He's extremely talented but seems much too frail to battle down low every night in the NBA. As said above, if I was gonna spend big money on a C, I think it would be DeAndre Jordan or just sign a stop gap vet that can hold it down until Valanciunas arrives. As for a Amir, I wouldn't be looking to trade him. He's a great off the bench big that plays hard every night and should have a role in the future of this team. I think Kabongo will be long gone before the 20th pick or so but if during the season we think we need a late pick, maybe we could organize a deal that sends Barbosa to a contender or Bargnani to a team like Milwaukee...preferably the latter.

Hey I fully respect not wanting to trade DeMar for Gilchrist BUT while I think DD's going to be a solid SG just based on that proposed "imaginary" scenario I think MG fits the needs of that line up a lot better....even if he turned out to only be a Tony Allen type of player.

As for what the above poster was saying about drafting SF...as noted by my sig Miller is obviously my first choice too (especially to try and lure Wall when his rookie contract is up ) but if he were off the board I go Davis. He played PG growing up so I really think if he dedicated himself to the position he could make it happen...hell if someone as slow as Hedo was at one point a successful SF I have no doubt Davis could too....and we would be monsterous in height.

But I definitely take Oden before Jordan. This team needs to take gambles on finding franchise like talent...period. We're not bringing Durant or someone like that here so we gotta roll the dice. If Jordan remains as he is, this team can become tough but not much. If Oden on the otherhand ended up anywhere near what he was....this franchise is flipped on its head and we're suddenly a scary ass young team. I don't care about Val or not...if they're both doing well obviously all the better; then we're stacked in the post!!!

Bottomline is our franchise needs more then just above average pleyers....we need to take gambles and those are moves I would take