US Open 2011

Post #101 » by **5DOM** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:41 am

Ong_dynasty wrote:^^
I agree, i dont blame djokovic since he seems to need it..
but the whole intensity just died down...Nadal either lacked the killer instinct or just focus due to it.

Yeah I knew the match was lost for Nadal after the timeout. But then these guys played so hard, they both probably needed it.

KING JAMES1978 · Post #102 » by **KING JAMES1978** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:41 am

Novak is the best player in the game and it's not even close at this point.
He survived against the GOAT(Roger) at the Semis and he win Rafa again .6-0 this year.
What a player.
With Roger out of his prime we have a new rivalry Novak-Rafa and this is good for the sport.

As I said 2011 Novak is at the same level with prime Federer and 2010 Nadal.Nobody can dispute this.

Jugs · Post #103 » by **Jugs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:46 am

KING JAMES1978 wrote:Novak is the best player in the game and it's not even close at this point.
He survived against the GOAT(Roger) at the Semis and he win Rafa again .6-0 this year.
What a player.
With Roger out of his prime we have a new rivalry Novak-Rafa and this is good for the sport.

As I said 2011 Novak is at the same level with prime Federer and 2010 Nadal.Nobody can dispute this.

im sure bullzilla will find a way to dispute it

KING JAMES1978 · Post #104 » by **KING JAMES1978** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:47 am

Jugs wrote:
KING JAMES1978 wrote:Novak is the best player in the game and it's not even close at this point.
He survived against the GOAT(Roger) at the Semis and he win Rafa again .6-0 this year.
What a player.
With Roger out of his prime we have a new rivalry Novak-Rafa and this is good for the sport.

As I said 2011 Novak is at the same level with prime Federer and 2010 Nadal.Nobody can dispute this.

im sure bullzilla will find a way to dispute it

He can't.
2011 Novak>2010 Rafa imo.

cb4_89 · Post #105 » by **cb4_89** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:57 am

Prime Roger vs 2011 Novak vs 2010 Rafa is like rock, paper, scissors most likely. Rafa takes Roger, Roger takes Novak and Novak takes Rafa.

EH15 · Post #106 » by **EH15** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:02 am

Bullzilla, where he at?

REDDzone · Post #107 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:03 am

Congrats djoker.

Post #108 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:34 am

KING JAMES1978 wrote:As I said 2011 Novak is at the same level with prime Federer and 2010 Nadal.Nobody can dispute this.

I certainly dispute it. Peak Nadal is a tier below the other two except on clay.

Post #109 » by **Rich Rane** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:07 am

As far as near blowouts go, this was as good as it gets. Some of the rallies were nothing short of amazing.

Ong_dynasty · Post #110 » by **Ong_dynasty** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:25 am

It is weird, because federer

KING JAMES1978 wrote:Novak is the best player in the game and it's not even close at this point.
He survived against the GOAT(Roger) at the Semis and he win Rafa again .6-0 this year.
What a player.
With Roger out of his prime we have a new rivalry Novak-Rafa and this is good for the sport.

As I said 2011 Novak is at the same level with prime Federer and 2010 Nadal.Nobody can dispute this.

I disagree. I think Nadal was ready to pounce. But I also have to say, Nadal was just not hitting the shots he would normally hit, I am unsure if that is due to Djokovic (ala what he does to Federer) or he was just off. He never took advantages of chances.
He was just so passive on his return when Djokovic was struggling with his serve in the 3rd set and when he was passive in the 4th.
It reminded me so much of wimbledon. Djokovic was better the first 2 sets, and then Nadal wins the 3rd. but what annoys me is that it seems like he just gives it away in the 4th rather than making djokovic win it. That is what is disappointing.

Post #111 » by **Slava** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:42 pm

Djokovic and Del Potro are the kind of guys that give Nadal issues. Even when Djoker's serve is not upto speed he has a great deal of spin and bounce and he's an even better returner of serve than Nadal.

BULLZ1LLA · Post #112 » by **BULLZ1LLA** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:10 pm

(I got to say, I have no complaints about this final. Nadal can't help the schedule - 4 matches in 5 days, compared to Djokovic's 4 matches in 8 days. If Nadal was a bit fresher, he would have continued the surge in the 4th set and finished off the clown. Overall a great final. Very encouraging for Nadal next year)

BULLZ1LLA · Post #113 » by **BULLZ1LLA** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:18 pm

SlavaMedvedenko wrote:Djokovic and Del Potro are the kind of guys that give Nadal issues. Even when Djoker's serve is not upto speed he has a great deal of spin and bounce and he's an even better returner of serve than Nadal.

(Although Del Potro only managed to hurt Nadal in 2009, and that year Nadal lost at Roland Garros, skipped Wimbledon, suffered a 15mm torn stomach muscle just before the US Open and couldn't even win a set in the World Tour Finals. Compare that to 2010 when Nadal won 3 straight slams, 5 straight clay events including 3 straight masters, and made the final of the Indoor World Tour Finals. Nadal in 2011 beat Del Potro at Indian Wells and Wimbledon. Nadal would prefer a slam final with Del Potro on any surface.

As for Djokovic....Nadal has repeatedly said this year that Djokovic's shots feel no different to last year, and that the difference is Djokovic's unusual improvement of stamina. We saw that in the US Open final - it appeared Nadal had gained the upper hand in the 3rd set and almost broke Djokovic early in the 4th....but then the unusual stamina kicked in and Djokovic cruised through the 4th set to victory)

Jugs · Post #114 » by **Jugs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:39 pm

excuses excuses

Post #115 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:30 am

BULLZ1LLA wrote:(Although Del Potro only managed to hurt Nadal in 2009, and that year Nadal lost at Roland Garros, skipped Wimbledon, suffered a 15mm torn stomach muscle just before the US Open and couldn't even win a set in the World Tour Finals. Compare that to 2010 when Nadal won 3 straight slams, 5 straight clay events including 3 straight masters, and made the final of the Indoor World Tour Finals. Nadal in 2011 beat Del Potro at Indian Wells and Wimbledon. Nadal would prefer a slam final with Del Potro on any surface.

As for Djokovic....Nadal has repeatedly said this year that Djokovic's shots feel no different to last year, and that the difference is Djokovic's unusual improvement of stamina. We saw that in the US Open final - it appeared Nadal had gained the upper hand in the 3rd set and almost broke Djokovic early in the 4th....but then the unusual stamina kicked in and Djokovic cruised through the 4th set to victory)

-Nadal's game very clearly plays differently against different opponents. The high topspin works well against normal size people but against someone like Del Potro it just goes into his wheelhouse. The hits Del Potro was making against Nadal in that 2009 match were just vicious hits and I don't think anyone could stop, and they were possible partly because of Nadal's stroke.

-Djokovic lost in straight sets 8 times last year. This wasn't a guy who was consistently losing long matches, he was just losing like a #3 player loses. There's more going on here than stamina.

cb4_89 · Post #116 » by **cb4_89** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:37 am

The stamina thing seems like BS. The dude won the first two sets and made Rafa serve like 8 billion times. This isn't like they were in the 20th game in the 5th set or something.

Post #117 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:37 am

cb4_89 wrote:The stamina thing seems like BS. The dude won the first two sets and made Rafa serve like 8 billion times. This isn't like they were in the 20th game in the 5th set or something.

lol, yeah didn't Djokovic break Nadal like 11 times? You don't do that with stamina.

BULLZ1LLA · Post #118 » by **BULLZ1LLA** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:40 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
-Nadal's game very clearly plays differently against different opponents. The high topspin works well against normal size people but against someone like Del Potro it just goes into his wheelhouse. The hits Del Potro was making against Nadal in that 2009 match were just vicious hits and I don't think anyone could stop, and they were possible partly because of Nadal's stroke.

(Yes, Del Potro likes Nadal's trajectory, but the head-to-head doesn't indicate he takes advantage a whole lot. The big difference in the 2009 US Open sf between Nadal and Del Potro, was that Nadal served at 105mph on 1st serves [torn stomach muscles do hurt, not just an excuse]. He served at that pace throughout the tournament, and that is 10-15mph slower than his 2010 and 2011 US Opens.

Doctor MJ wrote:lol, yeah didn't Djokovic break Nadal like 11 times? You don't do that with stamina.

Yes, Djokovic broke Nadal 11 times, and Nadal broke Djokovic 6 times. I don't recall a grand slam final with 17 breaks before, incredible. And in last year's US Open final, Nadal had 26 break points on Djokovic's serve. It seems to be the way of their match-up. The breaks are a result of stamina, because Djokovic is outlasting Nadal in the long grinding rallies, and Nadal's service games took over 10 minutes each several times, and one game lasted 17 minutes. So stamina indeed was the key. This was a really long match. They had already reached 4 hours early in the 4th set. If it went 5 sets, the match would have lasted over 5 hours.

Ong_dynasty wrote:
I disagree. I think Nadal was ready to pounce. But I also have to say, Nadal was just not hitting the shots he would normally hit, I am unsure if that is due to Djokovic (ala what he does to Federer) or he was just off. He never took advantages of chances.
He was just so passive on his return when Djokovic was struggling with his serve in the 3rd set and when he was passive in the 4th.
It reminded me so much of wimbledon. Djokovic was better the first 2 sets, and then Nadal wins the 3rd. but what annoys me is that it seems like he just gives it away in the 4th rather than making djokovic win it. That is what is disappointing.

There are a several theories on what happened in the 4th set. Djokovic claims his slow serving confused Nadal.

Another theory is that Nadal stopped attacking, because he thought Djokovic was injured and would hand him the set/match. So Nadal started playing conservatively and just kept the ball in play. Even when Nadal got down a break, he still may have thought Djokovic just got lucky by slapping some winners. Nadal needed to realize that Djokovic actually was only serving slower, nothing else had changed. Djokovic was still moving brilliantly and hitting brilliantly.

And the theory Nadal was asked about first in his press conference, the Djokovic injury timeout:

Q. Did it put you out of your rhythm at all, the long timeout he took after the first game of the fourth set?

RAFAEL NADAL: Sorry?

Q. Did it knock you out of your rhythm when he took the long injury timeout after the first game of the fourth set after you had just won the tiebreak?

RAFAEL NADAL: We are starting the press conference in a bad way, I think. (Smiling.) Let's talk about the match. It's not the right moment to find excuses if he stops the match there or if I was tired. I fighted until the last point. I tried my best in every moment. I am happy with a lot of things, much happier than the previous matches against him. In another things I'm not that happy. But in general I think he did great, no? I had my chances. I really had my chases. At the beginning of the first I had two games to love. The first set was playing really the well beginning, and I lost a little bit the way how to play and lost a little bit the rhythm. Happened the same in the second set. You know, with that very, very long game, finally I had a mistake with the smash. So few tough points for me during the match. He's doing well. He always did well in these kind of surfaces. I always had big trouble to beat him here in this surfaces in the past. It's not an exception now, especially because he's doing better than ever. But you know what? I go back home knowing that I am on the way. You know, I like to fight, I want to enjoy about this battle against him. Six straight loses, for sure that's painful. But I'm going to work every day until that changes. So I have a goal, easy goal for me now. It's going to be tough to change the situation, but the goal is easy to see. To have a goal always you know how to work every day.

But I think Nadal may have simply run out of energy. He had played 4 matches in 5 days. Djokovic had played 4 matches in 8 days. That should make a difference 4 hours into the final, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nadal just ran out of steam. Notice that in the 4th set, Nadal stopped fist-pumping, he stopped showing the positive body language. He may simply have had no energy left to do that, and no energy left to play aggressively)

Post #119 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:43 am

BULLZ1LLA wrote:(Yes, Del Potro likes Nadal's trajectory, but the head-to-head doesn't indicate he takes advantage a whole lot. The big difference in the 2009 US Open sf between Nadal and Del Potro, was that Nadal served at 105mph on 1st serves [torn stomach muscles do hurt, not just an excuse]. He served at that pace throughout the tournament, and that is 10-15mph slower than his 2010 and 2011 US Opens.

What the heck? Del Potro reached elite status in 2009, and got injured shortly there after. The last 3 times the two played before his injury, Del Potro won. Since then Del Potro has been a slow process of recovery that no one considers his peak self. There's not really a mystery here as to how Nadal has managed to lead the head-to-head: Avoid playing peak Del Potro.

BULLZ1LLA · Post #120 » by **BULLZ1LLA** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:10 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
BULLZ1LLA wrote:(Yes, Del Potro likes Nadal's trajectory, but the head-to-head doesn't indicate he takes advantage a whole lot. The big difference in the 2009 US Open sf between Nadal and Del Potro, was that Nadal served at 105mph on 1st serves [torn stomach muscles do hurt, not just an excuse]. He served at that pace throughout the tournament, and that is 10-15mph slower than his 2010 and 2011 US Opens.

What the heck? Del Potro reached elite status in 2009, and got injured shortly there after. The last 3 times the two played before his injury, Del Potro won. Since then Del Potro has been a slow process of recovery that no one considers his peak self. There's not really a mystery here as to how Nadal has managed to lead the head-to-head: Avoid playing peak Del Potro.

(Don't forget, Nadal did not win a SET in the 2009 World Tour Finals [whereas in 2010 Nadal only lost one match at the World Tour Finals, and even beat Djokovic and Murray]. After losing at Roland Garros in 2009, and experiencing his parents divorce, Nadal was doomed mentally and physically. Hard to measure Del Potro, or anyone vs that Nadal. But yeah, maybe that year just happened to be Del Potro at a different level to every other year, but that would make it an awfully short prime and one not worth worrying about)