Rays = what Jays should strive for

number15 · Post #1 » by **number15** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:26 pm

seriously i am amazed at the way they keep bringing in the elite level prospects and how many of those prospects end up making a huge impact in the MLB so fast..... all this while knowing they cant afford to keep most of those players when they hit pay day. Yet they just replace them, and make it look so easy.

Pitching is key. just look at what they have produced..... Not long ago they brought up that David Price kid to experience the MLB as a reliever, and as season later he is a legit ace. Then this kid named Jeremy Hilickson as early as this season and now he is ace material atleast on many other teams. Oh, and next season and possibly soon now they have a kid that is on par with David Price.... name is Matt More, have you heard of him?

people say its cause they were such losers for so long that they kept getting these high draft picks.... but that dosent work anymore. They are still producing strong pieces since they started winning. Most of these young guys are recent pick ups.....Wade Davis, Jeff Neimann, and James Shields are older pickes... but the 3 guys i named are very recent and any team would look good with that trio, including our Jays

im not even gonna get started on the position players... this is enough to argue with already

oh, and they are giving Boston a late season scare again....Tampa Bay is the best run team in the MLB

The Flying Gent · Post #2 » by **The Flying Gent** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:47 pm

So we should strive to be an utterly **** team for the longest time which gets us so many high picks we could stumble ass backwards into can't miss prospects (which despite what you say is the crux of their success) which won't be here long term and hope to be true contenders once or twice a decade?

No, the Jays are not similar to the Rays, and we shouldn't strive to be like them at all. Beyond the ubiquitous goal of having great management, of course.

Also they drafted Price, Moore, and Hellickson while they were still ****. Price was the first overall pick, for crying out loud.

number15 · Post #3 » by **number15** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:03 pm

let me change my argument alittle.... i mean just their drafting

Jeremy Hellickson = 4th round pick
James Shields = 16th round pick
Matt Moore = 8th round pick
Desond Jennings = 10th round
Matt Joyce = 12th round

etc.....

............ agree though Price, Niemann, Upton etc.. were high picks. But thats ALOT of talent in late rounds

u cant say that cause of losing. I mean by the 16th round anyone, including the JAYS could have grabbed them

They also never mess up high picks... most end up making impact, unlike the Jays. Having a high pick dosent guarantee anything. They make it work.

sonn · Post #4 » by **sonn** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:00 pm

Tampa has missed on their share of picks as well. Tim Beckham was the 1st overall pick of the 2008 and is struggling, the #8 pick in 2005 draft Wade Townsend is now in independent ball. Hell, the entire 2008 and 2009 drafts doesn't look too good for the Rays. If you actually look through the drafts Tampa has had massive hits but some huge busts as well.

Post #5 » by **Schad** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:39 pm

So, what we should strive for is to find very talented players in later rounds of the draft? I have a feeling the team is kinda doing that already...and as one of our best prospects at the moment is a kid chosen in the 15th round, and we have a number of others chosen beyond the top two rounds excelling, it would appear that they are doing okay.

Homer Jay · Post #6 » by **Homer Jay** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:11 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:So, what we should strive for is to find very talented players in later rounds of the draft? I have a feeling the team is kinda doing that already...and as one of our best prospects at the moment is a kid chosen in the 15th round, and we have a number of others chosen beyond the top two rounds excelling, it would appear that they are doing okay.

Not to mention IFAs like Hech, Alvarez, and Molina. Tampa works under a strict system of pretty much exploiting the controllable early years of their players. When they hit FA they either walk or get traded the year before. That is something I hope we do not emulate too much!

Hoopstarr · Post #7 » by **Hoopstarr** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:07 pm

Matt Joyce was a Tigers pick. As to the OP, duh. AA has been there, done that.

dagger · Post #8 » by **dagger** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:03 pm

I'd rather Rogers set a different example and open up the vault. Tampa will never do that. We can have the best of good player development AND a larger payroll.

tiger7 · Post #9 » by **tiger7** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:54 pm

Oh I thought you meant a more empty stadium even while in the playoffs :lol:

Mak · Post #10 » by **Mak** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:19 am

We have second best rated minor league after Tampa. I think we are doing okay. The difference will be is that we will be able to spend money to keep star players and maybe sign other teams star players.

number15 · Post #11 » by **number15** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:00 pm

Mak wrote:We have second best rated minor league after Tampa. I think we are doing okay. The difference will be is that we will be able to spend money to keep star players and maybe sign other teams star players.

Jays are ranked so high because of the depth they have in the minors.... Rays are miles away when it comes to star-potential.

Jays are loaded when it comes to future players that might become MLB main stays, but there isent much when it comes to future stars.

Other than Brett Lawrie there isent a future star type player in the Jays system..... Drabek looked good, but he is project now...... While the Rays have a star potential player ready to come up almost every year and almost always they stick.

Lateral Quicks · Post #12 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:10 pm

That isn't true number15. The Jays have plenty of high end talent. d'Arnaud could arrive as early as next year and he's one of, if not the best, catching prospect in baseball. Marisnick and Crouse are very young 5 tool players who had promising seasons, Marisnick in particular. Gose is closer than those guys and has the tools to be an elite CF. Hechevarria has game-changing defense at SS and if always batted in warm climate, he'd probably be in the major leagues by now.

And that's just the position players that really stand out to me. On the pitching side you'll be seeing guys like Alvarez, Drabek, Hutchison, Molina, and Carreno next year. That's a pretty amazing pipeline of guys with star potential.

Perhaps not all of those guys have superstar potential like Lawrie, but I think it's stretching it to proclaim Tampa is generating a new superstar every year.

Mak · Post #13 » by **Mak** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:15 pm

number15 wrote:
Mak wrote:We have second best rated minor league after Tampa. I think we are doing okay. The difference will be is that we will be able to spend money to keep star players and maybe sign other teams star players.

Jays are ranked so high because of the depth they have in the minors.... Rays are miles away when it comes to star-potential.

Jays are loaded when it comes to future players that might become MLB main stays, but there isent much when it comes to future stars.

Other than Brett Lawrie there isent a future star type player in the Jays system..... Drabek looked good, but he is project now...... While the Rays have a star potential player ready to come up almost every year and almost always they stick.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Prove me wrong.

Wally West · Post #14 » by **Wally West** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:28 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:So, what we should strive for is to find very talented players in later rounds of the draft? I have a feeling the team is kinda doing that already...and as one of our best prospects at the moment is a kid chosen in the 15th round, and we have a number of others chosen beyond the top two rounds excelling, it would appear that they are doing okay.

Crouse?

Post #15 » by **Schad** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:50 pm

blackflash234 wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:So, what we should strive for is to find very talented players in later rounds of the draft? I have a feeling the team is kinda doing that already...and as one of our best prospects at the moment is a kid chosen in the 15th round, and we have a number of others chosen beyond the top two rounds excelling, it would appear that they are doing okay.

Crouse?

Hutchison; Crouse was selected even later, in the 16th round.

number15 · Post #16 » by **number15** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:31 pm

Lateral Quicks wrote:That isn't true number15. The Jays have plenty of high end talent. d'Arnaud could arrive as early as next year and he's one of, if not the best, catching prospect in baseball. Marisnick and Crouse are very young 5 tool players who had promising seasons, Marisnick in particular. Gose is closer than those guys and has the tools to be an elite CF. Hechevarria has game-changing defense at SS and if always batted in warm climate, he'd probably be in the major leagues by now.

And that's just the position players that really stand out to me. On the pitching side you'll be seeing guys like Alvarez, Drabek, Hutchison, Molina, and Carreno next year. That's a pretty amazing pipeline of guys with star potential.

Perhaps not all of those guys have superstar potential like Lawrie, but I think it's stretching it to proclaim Tampa is generating a new superstar every year.

ill give you some credit for your comeback..... D'Arnaud could be a very good catcher

however, Hechevarria is not the same. He has gold glove defense but his hitting as good as a bench hitter. If the Jays ever move Escobar for him, it is a major Fail..... Same goes for Anthony Gose, the guy is a gold candidate but on offense he is like Rajai Davis. Amazing speed with average at best abaiity to hit.

as for the pitchers you named... Alverez looks good. The rest are replaceable.

I am not saying the Jays system is garbage. Obviously the depth is there and alot of them will be MLB regulars. I just meant the star potential that Tampa keep turning up is just not there in Toronto.

For example, just this season.... Hilickson, Moor and Jennings are all 3 on par with a guy like Brett Lawrie.... trust me even if the Jays had 1 of those 3 in Toronto they'd be as hyped as Lawrie is now.... kinda like the Drabek hype, only Drabek never showed any glimpse of living up to it. These 3 guys from the RAYS 2011 season are.

Post #17 » by **Schad** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:21 pm

number15 wrote:as for the pitchers you named... Alverez looks good. The rest are replaceable.

I am not saying the Jays system is garbage. Obviously the depth is there and alot of them will be MLB regulars. I just meant the star potential that Tampa keep turning up is just not there in Toronto.

For example, just this season.... Hilickson, Moor and Jennings are all 3 on par with a guy like Brett Lawrie.... trust me even if the Jays had 1 of those 3 in Toronto they'd be as hyped as Lawrie is now.... kinda like the Drabek hype, only Drabek never showed any glimpse of living up to it. These 3 guys from the RAYS 2011 season are.

You really have no understanding of the Jays' farm system. Hutchison is emerging as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball...he's not some random part.

And Jeremy Hellickson is a long way from ace material just yet; he has been, by the numbers, one of the luckiest pitchers in baseball, as his component ratios are nowhere near the strength of his ERA. He'll close out the season at below 2 WAR; for the sake of comparison, he's well over a win below the much-maligned Brandon Morrow despite pitching more innings.

On Lawrie, only one of those three are anywhere near him: Jennings. Moore could be, but whereas Lawrie has an OPS above 1.000 in 150 PAs, Moore has just one major-league appearance to his credit (he got roughed up).

TheBunk · Post #18 » by **TheBunk** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:30 pm

The Jays have plenty of potential stars in their minor leagues in addition to unmatchable depth.

Marisnick, Gose, D'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Hutchison, Sanchez, Nicolino, Norris, Cardona, Hawkins, Comer, Osuna, etc

youreachiteach · Post #19 » by **youreachiteach** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:15 am

Hellickson has given up more than 2 runs only twice over more than 21 straight starts.

21.

Brandon Morrow has given up a run an inning over his last 10. I guess that's just "luck", though.

Post #20 » by **Schad** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:34 am

youreachiteach wrote:Hellickson has given up more than 2 runs only twice over more than 21 straight starts.

21.

Brandon Morrow has given up a run an inning over his last 10. I guess that's just "luck", though.

Yeah, it largely is, mixed with the Rays' defense. Opponents are hitting .229 off him on balls in play...that's not something that he controls. Tonight, he walked four batters and three 120 pitches (only 68 for strikes) in less than six innings. Gave up just one run, and only three hits on seventeen balls in play. That's luck.

Didn't you argue similarly with Jo-Jo shortly before Ol' Man Regression to the Mean caught him?