Amnesty Rule

[dukeknicksirish]

I keep hearing about this amnesty rule, supposedly allows you to drop the biggest contract on your roster, or something like that....

Ex: Boozer and Asik for Joe Johnson and ZaZa
-Atl gets a Center, gets rid of Joe's horrible contract, drops Boozers contact and resigns for cheaper
-Bulls get the SG they desperately need, get rid of Boozers contract, and you have..
5.Asik/Horford
4.Horford/Boozer
3.Josh
2.Marvin
1.Teague

This is a really goood lookin team...

[Hawk4Playoffs]

Wow... No! Boozers contracts sucks! Rather have joe than boozer. I'm sure other hawks fans would agree.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Wow... No! Boozers contracts sucks! Rather have joe than boozer. I'm sure other hawks fans would agree.

Well he is basically saying we would amnesty Joe at a cheaper price. If the goal is to amnesty him, then I could see this as a good deal, but I think it is doubtful that they amnesty him. Doubt salary works out either.

[azuresou1]

Let's just amnesty Al Horford, he sucks and is easily replaceable by guys like Thabeet, Jordan Hill, and Montezuma.

[Hawk4Playoffs]

Wow... No! Boozers contracts sucks! Rather have joe than boozer. I'm sure other hawks fans would agree.

Well he is basically saying we would amnesty Joe at a cheaper price. If the goal is to amnesty him, then I could see this as a good deal, but I think it is doubtful that they amnesty him. Doubt salary works out either.

ohhhh... i'm all for signing joe for a cheaper price.... just not trading him for boozer... the trade doesn't make much sense.

[Ruhiel]

Let's just trade Al Horford, he can't play outside and is easily replaceable by matching up with bigger lineups like Thabeet, Josh Smith goes inside as a Bully 3, Malcolm Thomas as his 7'2 wingspan backup. and a 7 foot 1 Troy Murphy type PF in Motiejunas and Jordan Hill for young bench scoring depth. We should also make Marvin worthwhile as Joe's backup Power SG.

Damn we have a lot of power matchups on this roster already. Nice to notice Rick Sund.

Such a decline is unprecedented for an All-Star caliber player in NBA history. As a rule, good players get to the line more frequently, and shoot at a higher percentage as their careers progress into their mid-20s. Great players learn to draw contact like heat-seeking missiles as they enter the lane, and still get their shots off. Rondo generally enters the lane only when he can get to the rim untouched, and he will throw up a weak shot before drawing a foul.

Getting to the line is an especially important skill set for a point guard. A point guard uses the ability to drive and draw fouls as a way to keep defenses honest and create many more passing opportunities; it also gets opposing big men into foul trouble and gets your team into the penalty earlier. And when the offense is not clicking, it is always a nice last resort for a point guard to make something happen. A point guard who does not get to the line is like a right-handed boxer who refuses to punch or jab with his left-hand under any circumstances, or an NFL offense that refuses to ever run the ball and passes on every single down.

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/article/21 ... z1Z1Pt3Jco

[azuresou1]

I don't know what I'd do without Ruhiel's gems like Al Horford not being able to play outside but guys like Thabeet and Jordan Hill being able to do so, and Montezuma being able to camp outside and yet still pull down more rebounds than Horford despite all scouting reports saying that he sucks at rebounds.

I honestly wonder what Horford did to offend Ruhiel so much, his hatred is almost comical.

[Ruhiel]

Pull down more rebounds than a C-F? 7 rebounds for Motiejunas < 9 rebounds for Horford

*Jordan Hill is a relief BENCH player. Unlike Horford and Josh Powell he can actually put players in penalty.

*Motiejunas plays outside

Nice how you baited me and then switched it up. Whats comical is the baiting every recent thread that comes up.

[azuresou1]

What's comical is the rep you've acquired on RealGM across all boards.

- I dare you to post your garbage trade with a poll, you post it only to take down the poll because all but 1-2 other people agreed it was garbage
- You try to get all snippy and post a thread asking for centers for Josh Smith, thinking that there would be no bites and so I'd look stupid, but instead a bunch of decent offers turn up.
- You rely on stats that you don't understand, except when they don't support you, in which case they then become irrelevant. You also cherry pick stats. The funny thing? Even those cherry picked stats still fail.
- You rely on 30 second long Youtube clips as "proof" yet again disregard them when they don't fit your agenda. Because for some reason, Josh Smith taking pull-up off-the-dribble fadeaway jumpshots isn't worth making a video for, but it's totally worth cherrypicking the videos where Horford fails to score.

Seriously, why DO you hate Al Horford so much?

[Ruhiel]

What's comical is the rep you've acquired on RealGM across all boards.

- I dare you to post your garbage trade with a poll, you post it only to take down the poll because all but 1-2 other people agreed it was garbage

viewtopic.php?t=1128951&f=2

- You try to get all snippy and post a thread asking for centers for Josh Smith, thinking that there would be no bites and so I'd look stupid, but instead a bunch of decent offers turn up.
Such as?

- You rely on stats that you don't understand, except when they don't support you, in which case they then become irrelevant. You also cherry pick stats. The funny thing? Even those cherry picked stats still fail.

Such as?

- You rely on 30 second long Youtube clips as "proof" yet again disregard them when they don't fit your agenda. Because for some reason, Josh Smith taking pull-up off-the-dribble fadeaway jumpshots isn't worth making a video for, but it's totally worth cherrypicking the videos where Horford fails to score.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3yKwuzR4fU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUudjpz4PWw[/youtube]

Point being HHorford wasn't built to score.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQKtjLcf_e0[/youtube]

[Ruhiel]

dukeknicks

we're not amnestying to pay for a Bulls title.

[azuresou1]

Congrats, you posted a link to a completely unrelated thread. You remember your topics about "If Mitch Kupchak ran the Hawks" and "Triple Post Hawks vs. Budget Jumpshooting Hawks" which everyone ripped on. You're being disingenuous once again.

I'm taking your omission of a rebuttal for Josh Smith for a Center as your admission that you were wrong.

You use WS/48 and don't understand what it means, while also insisting on using Thabeet and Hill's rookie WS/48. You also use Josh Smith's 09-10 stats regularly instead of his 10-11 stats, and claim Horford has plateaued when Smith statistically has degraded while Horford has improved.

Only your last video showed Josh Smith taking the type of shot I described, yet with only 5 views it's clear that you haven't found the time to post it before on this board since it would hurt your argument. That's deliberately being dishonest yet again.

[Ruhiel]

Congrats, you posted a link to a completely unrelated thread. You remember your topics about "If Mitch Kupchak ran the Hawks" and "Triple Post Hawks vs. Budget Jumpshooting Hawks" which everyone ripped on. You're being disingenuous once again.

This thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1124786 was worded confusingly.

+ more room for Teague to drive, better screeners, more room for Smith to post and get leaner, more athleticism and problems for Noah and Boozer

The other point was that we were top heavy and would rely on "scrubs" forever.
It deserved to be ripped on. My points were jumbled up. That link which did make a clear point was not unrelated or worded wrong.

I'm taking your omission of a rebuttal for Josh Smith for a Center as your admission that you were wrong.

What omission? What decent offer(s)?

You use WS/48 and don't understand what it means

It divides how much you contributed to wins on a particular team. Energy big men contribute a lot.

while also insisting on using Thabeet and Hill's rookie WS/48.

Thabeet played way more minutes his rookie year and was the defensive rating leader on a bad defensive team. He can put up 12% WS/48 on the Hawks.

And what little time Hill did play with Houston (as a center mind you) was just proof he could put up 12% WS/48.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... uza01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ljo01.html

Thats what Zaza puts up.

You also use Josh Smith's 09-10 stats regularly instead of his 10-11 stats

Josh Smith 09-10
15.5%
Josh Smith 10-11
11.8% (245lbs played center)

Desired: 13%

Does it matter? He cant lose 10 lbs?

and claim Horford has plateaued when Smith statistically has degraded while Horford has improved.

Oversimplifying. Smith had career highs in several advanced stats consistent with the position he played center and power forward.

Horford's move to power forward was to help him on defense. Offensively it doesnt matter where you play him PF or C.
He's not having his way.

Only your last video showed Josh Smith taking the type of shot I described, yet with only 5 views it's clear that you haven't found the time to post it before on this board since it would hurt your argument. That's deliberately being dishonest yet again.

Seriously? Dishonest about WHAT? The whole trade is to move him inside.

When should I have brought it up?
How about we bring this up:
* Horford (7'1 wingspan, 6'9.75) is inside and cant establish balance vs Brandon Bass who is 6'7.


Josh Smith + Hilton Armstrong + Al Horford

who should stand outside and try to slash? Smith Horford or Motiejunas
Who should be inside grabbing offensive boards? What team helps us take out a couple scorers on elite team/ matches up with the league.
Thats the argument. How do we get the most advantages?

IE the last clip the screener (Horford) is replaced by Thabeet. Joe can hit him because hes a bigger target. Not likely?
Next option: Smith is sneaking baseline, Turkoglu steps up instead of Dwight, one drop step (a more athletic ) Josh Smith takes a hop step dunk and maybe Dwight contests for a foul
Not there for Joe?:
Next option: Motiejunas outside as a decoy, but at 7'1 he can spot up or cut in last second and hit the jumper or stay outside for 3

[azuresou1]

And yet you had a poll where the results were staggeringly against you. You're welcome to repost the poll with better wording, but you know that the results will be the same.

This omission - "You try to get all snippy and post a thread asking for centers for Josh Smith, thinking that there would be no bites and so I'd look stupid, but instead a bunch of decent offers turn up." You supposedly quoted my post and replied, yet you removed that sentence. Don't think no one noticed.

Al Horford was one of the best players by WS/48 last year, yet you want to trade him. LULZ. And again with the cherrypicking stats.

Josh Smith changed his game so he started taking jumpshots again. Why would you believe that he is going to play smart and the way he should when he's done it for all of one season and a half of a single playoff series?

Once again, you ignore the stats which show that Horford performs better at PF than at C, both on offense and on defense, and at either position outperforms Smith.

Josh Smith doesn't play outside because there's no space, he plays outside because he loves his jumpshots. Furthermore, Al Horford is one of the better outside shooters at PF OR at C, and thus should allow Smith to play inside more, yet Smith still plays outside.

[Ruhiel]

And yet you had a poll where the results were staggeringly against you. You're welcome to repost the poll with better wording, but you know that the results will be the same.

This omission - "You try to get all snippy and post a thread asking for centers for Josh Smith, thinking that there would be no bites and so I'd look stupid, but instead a bunch of decent offers turn up." You supposedly quoted my post and replied, yet you removed that sentence. Don't think no one noticed.

Actually its there in green font. Being wrong does not = stupid. Stop trying to make it personal.

Al Horford was one of the best players by WS/48 last year, yet you want to trade him. LULZ. And again with the cherrypicking stats.

But how was Horford the best player by WS/48? And how does it translate to how the rest of his team plays?
Id say hes an undersized center who has the best WS/48 by speeding centers.
How does it translate vs Dwight? If you ask the right people it doesn't translate. Thus Jason Collins.
At PF Id say hes a power player like a 6'9 Joakim Noah.
How does it translate vs Bosh, Boozer? If you ask the right people it doesn't translate. Thus insert Jamal Crawford, shooters etc.
Am I wrong?

Josh Smith changed his game so he started taking jumpshots again. Why would you believe that he is going to play smart and the way he should when he's done it for all of one season and a half of a single playoff series?

Josh Smith played @ 245 so he could have career highs in rebounding and hold his position.
So he could anchor the defense.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M0oViFgoqM[/youtube]

He didn't change his game. And "play smart"? Please that is extremely dated criticism.

Hilton Armstrong is supposed to take the shot outside with 6 seconds left? Why didnt Horford just post up Bass he's only 6'7 with a 7'3 wingspan? Or here Horford isn't smart enough to score on Gasol?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6KLqMFgxNk[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj9gvXwnkzw

Once again, you ignore the stats which show that Horford performs better at PF than at C, both on offense and on defense, and at either position outperforms Smith.

Josh Smith doesn't play outside because there's no space, he plays outside because he loves his jumpshots.

What are you talking about? Larry Drew:

"When they started double-teaming Joe we tried to space the floor. This was one of those games where we could have used Kirk, could have used Josh Smith. Because one thing those guys can do is space the floor. We turned down some shots out of the double team which we can’t do. If they double team and you get an open look you’ve got to take the shot. We had some guys that were a little bit reluctant."

Furthermore, Al Horford is one of the better outside shooters at PF OR at C, and thus should allow Smith to play inside more, yet Smith still plays outside.

Did you see where Smith was? Did you see he had to make a shot off the dribble?
No Horford is a stationary shooter and if you make him shoot off the dribble he can get hurt. Stop shorthanding the argument.

Horford's mid range game is "limited".
Better? Compared to who? He shoots stationary opportunistic shots.
Terry and Dirk provide spacing for Marion and Chandler.

Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams are our spacing. Horford is one of the better outside shooters? Compared to who?

His set up jumper leads to another jumper then another then a run out opportunity. Where is the crossover to the dunk at the rim. This would make SMith expendable.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SIYOymVRLM[/youtube]

I bet you can name 10 that lead to a running hook shot. You can name "scrubs" that have a hook shot. Horford isn't an inside player.

Horford is a "limited" outside player. A 2pt Jump shot is to set up free throws. Motiejunas can do that off the dribble. Mo Evans, Marvin Williams, Jamal Crawford all can go to the rim off of Teague or JJ's handles.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsqkb88HHuM[/youtube]

Horf doesnt have height to length that gives you balance. Hes not an outside player.

I mean every fake he does, he does so hard to throw off the defender but all he does is fake himself and literally travels.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3GGnmPHAk[/youtube]

Hes not outside. And your obscuring video evidence and possibly taking stats vs Charlie Villanueva?

If Horford plays inside vs him how is that more valuable come playoffs or relevant at all?

Dirk has trouble with an athletic defender but if he never sees him in the NBA Finals tournament does it matter? Thats cherrypicking.

Horford vs Bosh, Horford vs Joakim and Boozer and Taj's 7'4 wingspan. Our wings and 6'8 pick and rolls where we take their big men out of the game is how we'll win.

Not Horford trying to go from assist leader and FT pariah to being Amare.

[MaceCase]

Larry Drew has also said this.

"He has to be flying around and blocking shots and running the floor and making passes. That’s when he’s at his best for us. We can’t have him just sitting out there and launching 3s, because that plays into the opposition’s hands."

Since we are on selective Larry Drew quotes.

[Ruhiel]

P.S. I didnt mean to be snippy.
- But I didn't see any decent offers.
- Horford was never meant to be a spacer. He was supposed to be a power player inside, a "beast".
- Trying to win the PF matchup with Bosh etc is a fail
- Smith outside is a fail.
- Smith at center is a fail.
- Might as well concentrate on our Power Wings:
+ switches ie pnR with Teague and Joe Johnson posting up Rose
+ pick and rolls and transition that end up with Smith going up on the only man back Derrick Rose
+ Marvin Williams and Joe Johnson driving on Dwyane Wade
+ rolls ending up with Bosh underneath the basket
+ depth that tests Miami's bench and fouls
+ Smith as a 245 lb center makes us play a weak foul rate team as well.
+ Smith as a 235 lb pNR/baseline SF makes us high foul rate team.
Noah/Boozer vs Lopez/Horford is not cutting off the head of the snake.

Its a terrible strategy and considering Horford cant attack them off the dribble or in the post its even more mind boggling.

[Ruhiel]

Larry Drew has also said this.

"He has to be flying around and blocking shots and running the floor and making passes. That’s when he’s at his best for us. We can’t have him just sitting out there and launching 3s, because that plays into the opposition’s hands."

Since we are on selective Larry Drew quotes.

What does that have to with disproving the spacing of Horford + Smith+ center?

2. All season L.D. never came out and said explicitly that he wants Josh to stop taking long 2s. In fact he repeatedly said Josh had worked on his shot last summer and “has a nice stroke.” Drew only added the stipulations that Josh’s Js should be within the flow of the offense and not early in the shot clock or when Josh is matched against a defender he should take in the post.

Smith's post game should really be limited to this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgNGfEmiibM[/youtube]

He gets doubled or fouled in the post fine but
* baseline drive off of penetration
* pick and roll

are the surer bets to get fouled.


Does anyone see me arguing Smith should be outside? We know Smith needs to be inside.
Yet we are still waiting on Al Horford's limitations from Macecase.

[MaceCase]

Azure said this:

Josh Smith doesn't play outside because there's no space, he plays outside because he loves his jumpshots.

You countered with this:

What are you talking about? Larry Drew:

"When they started double-teaming Joe we tried to space the floor. This was one of those games where we could have used Kirk, could have used Josh Smith. Because one thing those guys can do is space the floor. We turned down some shots out of the double team which we can’t do. If they double team and you get an open look you’ve got to take the shot. We had some guys that were a little bit reluctant."

Now because I possess fantastic reading comprehension and thus understand context you were posting that selective quote as a manner of proving Josh Smith taking jumpers not being a matter of him doing so on his lonesome but rather part of the coach's scheme.

Well the coach said this also:

He has to be flying around and blocking shots and running the floor and making passes. That’s when he’s at his best for us. We can’t have him just sitting out there and launching 3s, because that plays into the opposition’s hands.

Well that sounds like it's clearly not part of the scheme to have him out there and thus an action taken solely on the part of the player. His weight has nothing to do with anything because explain why then all the seasons before his career year in 10' weren't nearly as efficient despite him being at a lower weight? Would it be that or the fact that that was the only season in the entirety of his career where he managed less than 40% of his offense being jumpers?
That sounds far more sensible but alas let's excuse it away to an alleged less than 10 pounds difference and not attribute it to any mental shortcomings of the player. That criticism is dated, after all

[Ruhiel]

His weight has nothing to do with anything because explain why then all the seasons before his career year in 10' weren't nearly as efficient despite him being at a lower weight?
Would it be that or the fact that that was the only season in the entirety of his career where he managed less than 40% of his offense being jumpers? That sounds far more sensible... but let's [blame it on athleticism].[Josh Smith is mental.]

2004-05 Age: 19 years old 5.5%
2005-06 Age: 20 years old 6.7%
2006-07 Age: 21 years old 7.9%
2007-08 Age: 22 years old 9.7%
2008-09 Age: 23 years old 9.7% (injured ankle when he was turning it around remember that?)
2009-10 Age: 24 years old 15.5%
2010-11 Age: 24 years old 11.8% (athleticism)
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2009/01/po ... -josh.html

Azure said this:

Josh Smith doesn't play outside because there's no space, he plays outside because he loves his jumpshots.

You countered with this:

What are you talking about? Larry Drew:

"When they started double-teaming Joe we tried to space the floor. This was one of those games where we could have used Kirk, could have used Josh Smith. Because one thing those guys can do is space the floor. We turned down some shots out of the double team which we can’t do. If they double team and you get an open look you’ve got to take the shot. We had some guys that were a little bit reluctant."

Now because I possess fantastic reading comprehension and thus understand context you were posting that selective quote as a manner of proving Josh Smith taking jumpers not being a matter of him doing so on his lonesome but rather part of the coach's scheme.

Well the coach said this also:

He has to be flying around and blocking shots

RE: Athletic defense and might be helped by a lower weight. He was at 3.5% in 2009.

and running the floor

RE: transition off of defensive steals. Nothing to do with halfcourt.

and making passes. That’s when he’s at his best for us.

RE: Making passes ie off the dribble with his perimeter skills.

We can’t have him just sitting out there and launching 3s, because that plays into the opposition’s hands.

Well that sounds like it's clearly not part of the scheme to have him out there and thus an action taken solely on the part of the player.

Really? thats a heck of a spin. He could just be saying he wants a shooter outside. (See Qyntel Woods invited to camp).

Ignoring the mention of blocks and transition offense... which are where I want Smith to get most of his FGA; they have nothing to do with 1/2court schemes.

According to Drew here The "scheme" is to have Josh Smith making passes" with 6 seconds left and after Horford fails to post and Joe Johnson fails to score?

Thats some spin, he never says where he is supposed to be. Trying to post up Deng or Turkoglu? Well thats fine the other team will single cover and foul when necessary, like we did with D12 or Pistons did with '04 Shaq, and take everyone else out of the game.

Scoring? In 2009 to 2010 you'd frequently find Smith on the baseline trying to beat players with his speed. Or at the FT line to score off a layup if he can get lower than the PF and beat him off the dribble with his handle. If they had length and speed they could neutralize him.
Passing? Josh Smith as a PF is stationed outside for spacing.

Our offense is 3 outside, 2 inside. If Smith is passing where is he? Outside. Or is that when we post up 6'8 Smith vs guys his size then pass outside?

If Josh Smith is the FOUR where is he? Running the lane? Or rebounding and TRAILING the perimeter?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkwvNhpMC0Q[/youtube]

Here's Smith inside where we want him getting offensive boards: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu_aZqajbcc[/youtube]

Why isnt Jason Collins inside? Spacing. This argument makes no sense. 3 Players inside in a big lineup? Or promote Smith out and running and ignore the fact Smith has been the FOUR ie the TRAILER. Not running the WING.

The Hawks schemes and double-talking coach is laughable. Where is he actually talking about how he fixes the halfcourt scheme. Forget defense go small and inserting shooters.

Enter Qyntel Woods invited to FA camp.