The Jordan Hill, Thabeet, and Montezuma are garbage thread

[azuresou1]

Thabeet:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eha01.html
http://www.82games.com/1011/10MEM19.HTM

- Can't stay on the court because he averages 6.8 PF/36.
- Started taking tons of jumpshots (41% of attempts) instead of playing inside but completely sucks at jumpshots (.438 eFG%)
- Team plays better when he's on the bench on both offense AND defense - net points/100 possessions of -19.2 points
- .478 TS%, 12.0 TRB%, 1.4 AST%, 23.5 TOV%, 8.7 USG%, 91 ORTG/105 DRTG
+ 3.5 BLK%

Jordan Hill:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ljo01.html
http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU17.HTM

- Can't stay on the court because he averages 5.1 PF/36
- Started taking tons of jumpshots (46% of attempts) instead of playing inside but completely sucks at jumpshots (.358 eFG%)
- Team plays better when he's on the bench on both offense AND defense - net points/100 possessions of -12.2 points
- .521 TS%, 15.4 TRB%, 4.0 AST%, 105 ORTG/108 DRTG
+ 3.2 BLK%

Montezuma:
No stats, every scouting report indicates that he is absolutely atrocious at defense and rebounding who is weak and soft.

Who needs things like like passing, defense, scoring, rebounding, or keeping your team out of the penalty? It's all good because we can pick up Bargnani 2.0.

[MaceCase]

Thabeet had a .438 eFG on jumpers? ****, let's trade Josh and his .428 eFG for Beet's better spacing. Slot TheBeat in at SF too and we'll upset the Lakers.

[HMFFL]

Jordan Hill is a very soft and weak minded person. He seems to only want to be a career role player and not a very productive player. I classify him as someone who's only playing to get paid, not to improve, and actually use his talent.

The only way I would want him on the Hawks if he's being paid the minimum. His game is just not appealing because it's obvious he could careless.

[MaceCase]

Hill is Shelden without the pedigree.

[Ruhiel]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wAAEF07c_4[/youtube]

Backup:
Jordan Hill a PF, played center and is built like a 233 lb Amare. He takes jumpers. Big surprise.

He was drafted to replace Zach Randolph and move Marc Gasol to PF. Or move Marc Gasol out the lineup and team up with Marc Gasol. Who Failed Thabeet or the Grizzlies.

Thabeet who played 883 minutes his rookie season and was getting confidence played 373 minutes this season and got traded. Im cherrypicking stats.


Garbage compared to what we had last year? Or the D-League F.A. ATL will "recruit" next year. (Read bottom feeders think this team is an easy contract).

Bargnani 2.0? No one our team can guard Bargnani?

Horford to PF what is he supposed to do on offense? Macecase pulls up a dunk on McDyess and then you switch and say he'll be a scoring monster.

Yet you can be quoted as saying something to the effect I "hate" him because he's not Amare on offense.

High horses.

And no Horford is not spacing the floor. Marvin, Joe, Crawford, Mo Evans, Flip Murray.
Propose your own depth chart.

And Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson have been garbage by your guys' definitions.

Which dont include playoff matchups.

[Ruhiel]

I'll be waiting for that offseason depth chart that gets us players that arent "garbage.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/ ... nbas-mess/

[Hawk4Playoffs]

I honestly don't want to hear about Motezuma, Thabeet and Hill. It seems like every frecking thread turns into Ruhiel vs Hawks fans. Its frankly annoying and I am really tired of reading the same thing day in and day out. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but please stop turning every thread about those 3. I am surprised you haven't been banned yet. Its only a matter of time if you keep mentioning it over and over again.

please stop...

-All RealGM Hawks Fans

[Ruhiel]

Excluding myself, We can count the # of regular Hawks fans on here with 2 hands.

To me this is annoying.

How about Josh Smith and Kirk Hinrich for STAT & either of Toney Douglas, Shump or Fields. Clear some salary, get Dwight's bud, wins about the same.

Atlanta goes all in on contracts that might cripple them in 2 years when Joe gets old and Amar'e's knees crumble but it get's that legit first and second option duo.

Hinrich would be smart to take a salary cut to stay on that team, it's absolutely stacked.

I don't want to see this team go down the toilet on some media B.S.


Im still waiting on:
* Al Horford's limitations
* our depth chart/ decent trade proposals

Crumbling knees PF doesn't sound like a decent proposal to me.

[azuresou1]

Amare hits his jumpshots at .440 eFG vs. Hill's .358 eFG.

The Grizzlies traded Thabeet for Battier and then proceeded to make a deep playoff push. They were willing to pay a 1st to get Thabeet off their team. Yeah, I'd say they won that trade. Thabeet played fewer minutes because he regressed and the Grizzlies cut their losses.

Zaza has a net points per 100 possessions (NPP100) of -6.1 Hill posts a -12.2 in that stat, and Thabeet posts a -19.2. To put that into perspective, Josh Powell, who's a horrific scrub in his own right, posted a -9.8, and Etan Thomas was a -17.3. Kwame Brown, who you constantly malign, posted a -5.8. This is only one metric; if you want, I will post other metrics which indicate how awful Hill and Thabeet are, and how replaceable they would be with comparable minimum salary players.

Bargnani gets wrecked whenever he plays us, for his career he averages 12.5/4/0 on 11 FGA. Last year he averaged 17/5/0 on 17 FGA, the year before he averaged 17/5/1 on 13 FGA, and before that he averaged 13/5/0 on 12 FGA. Am I supposed to be trembling in my boots?

It's kind of telling that you can't read that I was being sarcastic about the scoring monster part, since it was a parody of your habit of making outlandish statements based on 30 second Youtube clips. To answer your question though, here are Al Horford's stats by position:
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL13.HTM

His volume increases, his efficiency drops, and overall his offense decreases, but that's okay because defensively he is significantly better, and that outweighs his slight drop in offense.

Oh, and Horford LED THE LEAGUE in midrange FG%, but I guess hitting 18-22 foot jumpshots at an extremely high clip doesn't help space the floor; only 3s do that.

[azuresou1]

We've already covered Horford's limitations, as well as proposed depth charts AND trade proposals, but you're always too disingenious to acknowledge them.

Horford's limitations are that he is too passive and doesn't demand or take shots that he should, is mechanical in the post, is a poor shooter off the dribble, and isn't athletic enough to consistently muscle through/over people, whether it's in the post or on drives. He also should be a bit more aggressive going for blocks and worry less about foul trouble, although I'd argue that if he didn't have to worry about getting insta-pulled for the first half upon accumulating 2 fouls, he wouldn't have this issue.

Trade proposals?
- Josh Smith, Zaza Pachulia for Brook Lopez, Travis Outlaw, Jordan Farmar, Johan Petro
- S&T Jamal Crawford for Omer Asik, Kyle Korver
- Josh Smith, Marvin Williams for Emeka Okafor, Trevor Ariza
- Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Zaza Pachulia for JaVale McGee, Rashard Lewis, Nick Young

You can figure out what the benches are with each of those trades, for the most part they leave us with respectable bench choices.

[azuresou1]

By the way, get back on topic and tell us why Hill, Thabeet, and Montezuma don't suck

Jordan Hill is an inefficient low volume scorer who doesn't rebound especially well or pass at all and completely craters his team's performance which he fortunately can't do all that often because he's too busy sitting on the bench because he fouls at absurd rates.

Thabeet is an inefficient low volume scorer who doesn't rebound especially well or pass at all and completely craters his team's performance which he fortunately can't do all that often because he's too busy sitting on the bench because he fouls at absurd rates. Who also turns it over on about a quarter of his possessions.

Montezuma is a rookie who has no NBA track record, and who every scouting report says is Bargnani 2.0.

[Ruhiel]

Amare hits his jumpshots at .440 eFG vs. Hill's .358 eFG.

The comparison is if Hill can reach Zaza's level as a backup PF.

The Grizzlies traded Thabeet for Battier and then proceeded to make a deep playoff push. They were willing to pay a 1st to get Thabeet off their team. Yeah, I'd say they won that trade. Thabeet played fewer minutes because he regressed and the Grizzlies cut their losses.

Zaza has a net points per 100 possessions (NPP100) of -6.1 Hill posts a -12.2 in that stat, and Thabeet posts a -19.2.To put that into perspective, Josh Powell, who's a horrific scrub in his own right, posted a -9.8, and Etan Thomas was a -17.3. Kwame Brown, who you constantly malign, posted a -5.8. This is only one metric; if you want, I will post other metrics which indicate how awful Hill and Thabeet are, and how replaceable they would be with comparable minimum salary players.

To put your net points per 100 possessions in perspective:

Now, according to 82games.com, Nocioni ranks 23rd in the league in Net Points Per 100 Possessions at +10.8. Not only does that number place him ahead of high-profile guys like Chris Bosh, Shaq, Dwight Howard, Brandon Roy, Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce, etc., it makes him by far the top player on his own team. The next closest Bull, Joakim Noah, currently ranks 72nd at +3.0. For the sake of comparison, Rose is way, way down the list at -9.4.

That is tainted by situational lineups and why do you ignore that Thabeet was set up to fail and that the Hawks personnel is different from Grizzlies personnel or Houston personnel.

Bargnani gets wrecked whenever he plays us, for his career he averages 12.5/4/0 on 11 FGA. Last year he averaged 17/5/0 on 17 FGA, the year before he averaged 17/5/1 on 13 FGA, and before that he averaged 13/5/0 on 12 FGA. Am I supposed to be trembling in my boots?

Any team that deploys multiple 7 footers... Makes it Hard for Horford to shoot inside.

It's kind of telling that you can't read that I was being sarcastic about the scoring monster part, since it was a parody of your habit of making outlandish statements based on 30 second Youtube clips.

You're either amnesiac or a liar. I asked what Horford does when someone closes out and Macecase responded:
I imagine he'd do this: (dunks on McDyess)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jEwMoR-iw[/youtube]

I already posted that video, but Ruhiel dismissed it as a fluke, ]which naturally doesn't hold true when it comes to Josh Smith getting a putback dunk off his own miss.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jEwMoR-iw[/youtube]

And you say I "hate" Horford because he isn't Amare. Well what other 6'10 guy drives and dunks one handed? Jordan Hill.

So tell me and Mace was that dunk on 35yo backup a fluke or wasn't it? Azure? Your words.

Oh, and Horford LED THE LEAGUE in midrange FG%, but I guess hitting 18-22 foot jumpshots at an extremely high clip doesn't help space the floor; only 3s do that.

RE:

In the aftermath of the Hawks-Magic game three, a lot of the talk will be about Jamal Crawford’s crazy isolation banked three pointer to put game away. However, the possession before that gave the Hawks the lead is the play that should be talked about. It wasn’t an intricate play, just a simple pick and pop, but the spacing on the floor lead to a wide to a wide open shot for Al Horford, one he knocked down:

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/04/22/floor ... ad-bucket/

Horford is not providing spacing as a PF. You know his playoff position.

Horford’s two strengths (rebounding the ball and spreading the court) aren’t nearly as valuable at the power forward position as they are as a center[/150].

w/ Ball:
Dribble and Pass after the fact
Dribble and Shoot (slash or pull up or fadeaway) after the fact
Just Pass that sh*t
Just Shoot that sh*t

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgNGfEmiibM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wEGtTJnZU[/youtube]
That is spacing, 3 point shooters who can pull up if necessary. We dont do that because teams rapes us when undersized. That is spacing. That is also a stationary shooter.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3GGnmPHAk[/youtube]
This is a big lineup and leaves us without spacing. Smith cant shoot. But this is also a stationary shooter traveling and showing his own limitations. Teams thus rape us here.

Teague+Smith+Horford = Noncompatible.

To answer your question though, here are Al Horford's stats by position:
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL13.HTM

No azure you know that's not my question and you can quote my question next time. I asked against whom Larry Drew decided to play him at PF? CHarlie Villanueva and Antonio McDyess?

I want to know what he can do against the 7 foot athletic Bosh and Noah who can contest his shots.
Motiejunas just stand out side and wait for an opportunity to drive get fouled or shoot a pull up shot or three.
And pick and pop and trail the break and lead the break. Showtime!

[size=150]There are a few teams we have to matchup and those guys we'll likely never see them in playoffs.

[MaceCase]

Thabeet has the drive of Marvin with 1/10000000 the talent.

Monterrey Jack Cheese has a bigger vagina than Pau Gasol.

Jordan Hill is more concerned with getting his locks tight than learning what a proper defensive stance is.

[Ruhiel]

We've already covered Horford's limitations, as well as proposed depth charts AND trade proposals, but you're always too disingenious to acknowledge them.

Horford's limitations are that he is too passive and doesn't demand or take shots that he should, is mechanical in the post, is a poor shooter off the dribble, and isn't athletic enough to consistently muscle through/over people, whether it's in the post or on drives. He also should be a bit more aggressive going for blocks and worry less about foul trouble, although I'd argue that if he didn't have to worry about getting insta-pulled for the first half upon accumulating 2 fouls, he wouldn't have this issue.

Trade proposals?

- S&T Jamal Crawford for Omer Asik, Kyle Korver

Meh, I wouldn't want to give up Asik for Jamal. UFA and getting a little up there in age, and seems like the one guy that's going to get overpaid this offseason, whenever it is.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1131776
- Josh Smith, Marvin Williams for Emeka Okafor, Trevor Ariza
I never responded to this trade. Neither did Hornets fans..
Bump and we can see if NOH does it.

- Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Zaza Pachulia for JaVale McGee, Rashard Lewis, Nick Young

I never responded to this trade. Neither did Wizards fans... Bump and we can see if WAS does it.

- Josh Smith, Zaza Pachulia for Brook Lopez, Travis Outlaw, Jordan Farmar, Johan Petro

So what's the best offers here?

With an amnesty seemingly bound to happen, I rescind my offer since it had the parasitic contract of Outlaw in there.

For all intents in purposes Smith is a 6'8 center. We can put him at SF with a stretch and make it work or we can hope someone trades us a legit center who we consider better for our team/better for building around Horford.

Looking at the limitations Horford's passing style isnt something you can "build" around and we are lucky to have dribble-drive guards like Teague and Joe and Smith inside who fit well together.
Joe can trail/fade to corner but we need another trailer... But NJ trade was obviously against us.

You can try the other 3 again, and I'll apologize if WAS, CHI or NOH does it..

You can figure out what the benches are with each of those trades, for the most part they leave us with respectable bench choices.

No, I can't figure it out that's why I asked...

[Geaux_Hawks]

I wouldn't call these guys garbage necessarily. I mean Motiejunas is a highly talented young player. A bad workout kept him from being a high lottery pick. Not every scout has called him Bargnani 2.0 and most of the ones that you use that comparison, use it as a worst case scenario. McHale is going to turn him into a monster.

Jordan Hill possesses loads of talent as well, but lacks a good enough BBall I.Q to tap into that talent. Therefor, he thinks he can do everything with his athleticism and does so to much at times. He is very competitive and and physically tough. McHale could very well make him into a productive player as well. I mean he is a great rebounder(especially offensively) and has some decent post moves.

Thabeet is just simply a project that you will have to be willing to invest time into. You can't teach size and athleticism. He has worked out with Yao recently, so he may end up learning something from that. Never should have been a top 10 pick though with such rawness.

I wouldn't mind having all 3 in Atlanta, but I know the Rox aren't going to give up Motiejunas. Hill and Thabeet could be had for 2nd, and I wouldn't be upset if Atlanta gave up a 2nd to get either. Maybe Thabeet to an extent, but its just a 2nd though.

[parson]

Soooooo, this thread is a preemptive strike on Ruhiel?

[azuresou1]

You stated that it should hardly be a surprise that Hill takes jumpshots since he's built similarly to Amare. I stated that it's okay for Amare because he hits them at an okay rate, whereas Hill is garbage. You then bring in Zaza? Complete nonsequitur.

Nocioni has never had a NPP100 of +10.8, ever. In 08-09, he was +3.5, in 07-08 he was +1.0. At no point has he been close to +10.8.

Bargnani blows vs. ATL, and Horford does well vs. TOR, averaging a 13/11/3. How are you going to claim no one on our team can guard Bargnani, and then redirect to Horford failing vs lineups with multiple 7 footers?

Where did I state that he's a scoring monster again? Yeah, I didn't. Fail on your part. And no, that dunk is not a fluke, Horford will take slower guys like McDyess off the dribble regularly.

None of what you posted counters the fact that Horford is supremely great at shooting from midrange, and Horford has clowned on Bosh in any case before. And it was a direct answer to this question: "Horford to PF what is he supposed to do on offense?"

[Ruhiel]

I wouldn't mind having all 3 in Atlanta, but I know the Rox aren't going to give up Motiejunas. Hill and Thabeet could be had for 2nd, and I wouldn't be upset if Atlanta gave up a 2nd to get either. Maybe Thabeet to an extent, but its just a 2nd though.

But our problem is frontline shooting.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Bargnani blows vs. ATL, and Horford does well vs. TOR, averaging a 13/11/3. How are you going to claim no one on our team can guard Bargnani, and then redirect to Horford failing vs lineups with multiple 7 footers?

"

Man that's not all that great if you consider Bargnani by your standards not the best rebounder nor defender, is more of a PF, and is 7 ft 250.

So even if Horford does get his wish of playing PF, then if that is the best he can do against someone that you consider garbage, then what will he do against better PF's?

Bargnani #'s from this year were 17-5-0 & 1 BPG. I wouldn't call that a fail, considering he shot 3's because of his team being down most the time and didn't make them. Had he settled for a more closer shot from mid-range, he probably has even better #'s.

And no, that dunk is not a fluke, Horford will take slower guys like McDyess off the dribble regularly.

Their isn't many starting PF's as slow as McDyess currently is and McDyess actually put a decent contest on that dunk despite being old and a former shell of himself.

As much as I hate Ruhiel's knowledge and novel's he post, he does make some good points every once in a while.

Soooooo, this thread is a preemptive strike on Ruhiel?

Yeah, you can say that..LOL!

[azuresou1]

13/11/3 in 32 MPG is pretty decent, and that was specifically about Bargnani, who Ruhiel loves. Furthermore, Horford statistically declines offensively as a PF, but gets MUCH better defensively. There is no reason to not move him to PF, other than that we don't have a good C.

Horford can take a large percentage of Cs off the dribble, and can muscle many other PFs. He struggles against guys who are agile enough to cut off the dribble, and strong enough that he can't post them up. Those guys tend to be premier defenders in the league, and while I do wish Horford was just flat out better, I'm not holding it against him that he can't score in volume against KG/Perkins or Dwight. In any case, Jordan Hill or Thabeet sure as hell are not scoring more than Horford, and if Motiejunas is Bargnani 2.0 I want no part of him on my team.

This thread was intended to solely be on the merits of Hill/Thabeet/Montezuma, who as far as I'm concerned have none.