Halladay Best Pitcher of Last Decade by Far

[craig01]

I was watching the Dodgers-Phillies game last night, in which he didn't pitch great but still only gave up 1 run and got the win. They flashed a stat onscreen that said he had won his last 23 starts in which he got 3+ run support. Now 24. That kind of consistency is just ridiculous.

I'd say he's pretty consistent

He's almost like the Jim Palmer of this decade (minus the 20-game seasons)

[Manocad]

[quote="number15"]People can argue who the best pitcher in baseball is today and they'd have an argument worth listening to........... but over the last decade, Halladay is the best, not too much of an argument[quote]
There's no argument over who the best pitcher is today. That's Justin Verlander hands down.

[bigboy1234]

To believe he is hands down better than Halladay, Lee, or Strasburg is quite homerous.

[Manocad]

To believe he is hands down better than Halladay, Lee, or Strasburg is quite homerous.

Perhaps not the best use of words. I'm not saying he's a lot better than any other pitcher, I'm saying it's easy to determine that he's the best right now.
Most wins - check
Fewest losses - check
Lowest ERA - check
Most strikeouts - check
Great pickoff move - check
Fields well - check
High innings pitched - check
Threw a no-hitter - check
Great use of a number of pitches - check

If there was a guy who finished a whisker behind Verlander in every category and was therefore very close to being as good, you would still say that it's clear that Verlander's the best because he's at the top of every category by which you judge being the best.

If there's a drag race and one car was clocked at 150 m.p.h. while the other was clocked at 148 m.p.h. you would say that one car was clearly faster than the other for that race. That doesn't mean it was a lot faster.

[bigboy1234]

I'm saying it's easy to determine that he's the best right now.

But, no.

Most wins - So you're opinion of him would change drastically if he played for the Mariners you say.
Fewest losses - well that isn't true, and doesn't really matter
Lowest ERA - again, untrue, you are going to say you meant AL, but this thread is about Halladay and you were talking about all pitchers
Most strikeouts - beat out Kershaw by two strikeouts and Kershaw had 18 less IP AND a lower ERA, same amount of losses, that is putting a damper on the easiest to determine thing and he wasn't even one of the guys I mentioned
Great pickoff move - really? Ok, he was 20th out of the 98 pitchers who had 160 IP or more this year in Pitches/SBA. Ian Kennedy was 3rd there, he has a beautiful W/L/ERA too. Then again Felix Hernandez is the 5th worst, not so sure this matters all that much.
Fields well - and others just fall on the ground?
High innings pitched - same reason I think Livan Hernandez was the best back a few years ago
Threw a no-hitter - yeah, unlike that stud Galarraga, blaming the ump for an honest mistake last year, wait how many times has Galarraga been DFA'd in the last year?
Great use of a number of pitches - unlike others who use magic and the like to get guys out

Then it seems you are mostly basing this off one season. That isn't how you determine the best. You can say he was the best pitcher of 2011, which I very well may agree with. Not that he has been bad the past couple years, but it is saying something different. Strasburg pitched 24 innings this year, that doesn't make him a bad pitcher, and if I had a gun to my head I'd pick him for a one game start right now over Verlander I think.

If there was a guy who finished a whisker behind Verlander in every category and was therefore very close to being as good, you would still say that it's clear that Verlander's the best because he's at the top of every category by which you judge being the best.

Well Kershaw seems to fit your criteria, but your criteria for judging a pitcher is very, lets say unique. And because that is how you judge a pitcher doesn't make it right.

If there's a drag race and one car was clocked at 150 m.p.h. while the other was clocked at 148 m.p.h. you would say that one car was clearly faster than the other for that race. That doesn't mean it was a lot faster.

Yes and the car that reached the higher top end speed could have still lost the drag race as the other car could have been quicker, depends on what you are trying to measure. And a difference of 2 mph is quite small, one race doesn't make someone the best, just like one season doesn't make someone the best.

Verlander is without a top 10 pitcher in the league, and even top 5 in my opinion. But there is no way he is clearly a better pitcher than guys mentioned above (ok, he's better than Galarraga and Livan).

[Sifu]

To believe he is hands down better than Halladay, Lee, or Strasburg is quite homerous.

Perhaps not the best use of words. I'm not saying he's a lot better than any other pitcher, I'm saying it's easy to determine that he's the best right now.
Most wins - check
Fewest losses - check
Lowest ERA - check
Most strikeouts - check
Great pickoff move - check
Fields well - check
High innings pitched - check
Threw a no-hitter - check
Great use of a number of pitches - check

If there was a guy who finished a whisker behind Verlander in every category and was therefore very close to being as good, you would still say that it's clear that Verlander's the best because he's at the top of every category by which you judge being the best.

If there's a drag race and one car was clocked at 150 m.p.h. while the other was clocked at 148 m.p.h. you would say that one car was clearly faster than the other for that race. That doesn't mean it was a lot faster.

I disagree. The greatest pitcher right now? Valverde. The guy just had one of the greatest seasons for a closer of ALL TIME. 49 save opportunities. 49 saves. I mean, that's simply amazing.

An interesting stat - did you know that 13 of Verlander's wins were saved by Valverde?

Now, let's switch Valverde with closers from a team that hadn't done so well - like Toronto. You still think that Verlander still wins 24 games?

Now, let's put Detroit into the AL East. Do you think Verlander's stats don't take a hit by playing the Yanks, Bosox, TB and the Jays 18 times per year instead of feasting on the dregs of the AL Central? The AL Central is so bad that the only winning team in that division is Detroit. That's bad.

Put Bosox, TB or Jays in there instead of Detroit, and any of those three teams wins the division hands down. Bosox and TB would crush it much like Detroit did. Any of the Bosox, TB and Yanks would maybe even win 100 games in that division. Lump Texas into that category as well.

What's all this mean? It's not that obvious that Verlander is the best pitcher in baseball.
I'll concede that he gets my vote for AL Cy Young, but it's not as black and white as some people out there say.

[Manocad]

Then it seems you are mostly basing this off one season. That isn't how you determine the best.

It is when the question states "right now." We're not talking about potential. The context of "right now" in most people's minds would be "this year." And this year it's not a question. He's going to be a landslide AL Cy Young winner and I think that based on his stats he'd still win if it was an entire league award. There isn't another pitcher who's being talked about for MVP.

If you think that leading the league in just about every pitching category is completely a function of the team he's on and luck, fine. But you couple that up with having thrown a no-hitter, being a landslide CY Young winner and being considered for MVP all in the same year--something no other pitcher can match this year--that's not homerous at all. If you feel the way I judge him as being the best is "unique", well there you're just flat out wrong. The Cy Young is baseball's award for best pitcher so obviously there's a whole slew of people who look at it the same way I do. And let's leave the stats behind...is he as dominant as any pitcher in the league on any given night? Damn right he is. If you feel my argument isn't compelling, fine. But it sure as s**t isn't "homerous."

[bigboy1234]

When you state things like hands down and clearly that he is the best pitcher, it is homerous.

You know who is the best pitcher is? Matt Moore. He just pitched the best most recently. You see how you are using a random cut off point of 2011 to determine best now? Get it? I can use a random cut off point of yesterday, that doesn't make it right. I already said I would very likely agree he was the best pitcher of 2011. Stephen Strasburg is not about "potential" when kid pitches he is better than Verlander. Ok, yes, potential in the way he has the potential to be one of the best pitchers of all-time. Yes, the guy using W/L/"great use of number of pitches"/threw a no hitter is not unique in judging a pitcher, if we are living in the year 1966.

And let's leave the stats behind

What? You were just using stats to back up your case.

is he as dominant as any pitcher in the league on any given night?

Eh, like I said I'd say Strasburg. But yes, he's on the level of the top 5-10 no doubt. But you said he's clearly and hands down better, not on the level.

[Manocad]

You're arguing semantics. When we say "right now" most people will equate that with the current season or last half of the season. If you think a Cy Young won in a landslide and MVP consideration that no other pitcher is getting doesn't make someone the best pitcher "right now" so be it. Give your "Best Pitcher Right Now" award to whomever you'd like.

[bigboy1234]

More logic than semantics.

And glad to know you think Clayton Kershaw is the best then, you know since he had half the ERA Verlander did in the second half, same W, L, IP, SO. By the way, I don't think I've ever heard anyone quote 2nd half stats.

Do you think Mike Morse and Albert Pujols are equal hitters like their 2011 stats would tell you?

Nice to see you think Jacoby Ellsbury is just as good as a power hitter as Miguel Cabrera.

It seems you have what it looks like backed off that hands down and clearly thing though, which is nice.

[Manocad]

Ah, I see you're one of those "I'm glad you agree that...I see you think that..." when the person said no such thing sort of people. Well, I guess I have to do this then. It's for your own good.

Justin Verlander is clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball today. When you're at the top of every category used to judge being the best and no other person is, it's clear you're the best, hands down. Therefore last night I presented him with my "Clearly, Hands Down Best Pitcher Right Now" award so this isn't open for debate anymore.

So move along now. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Sifu]

:lol:
Ah, I see you're one of those "I'm glad you agree that...I see you think that..." when the person said no such thing sort of people. Well, I guess I have to do this then. It's for your own good.

Justin Verlander is clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball today. When you're at the top of every category used to judge being the best and no other person is, it's clear you're the best, hands down. Therefore last night I presented him with my "Clearly, Hands Down Best Pitcher Right Now" award so this isn't open for debate anymore.

So move along now. Thank you and have a nice day.

How can you say that Verlander is clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball today? He isn't clearly dominating in the manner that Pedro did when Pedro was "clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball" at that time.

And here is why:
You use wins and losses as a category to judge his uber-ness. But let's face it, much of wins/losses are outside of the control of the pitcher. It's contingent upon how many runs your team scores for you, the quality of your opponents, and the quality of your bullpen after you leave the game.

For Verlander, he pitched in the worst division in baseball - in which his team is the only team that had a winning record. He faced these teams an amazing 72 times! He had 34 starts this season, only 11 of which came against teams with 0.500 or above. If you want above 0.500 then it's even worse than that.

Every time he left the game with a lead, he won. Valverde was 13 for 13 in save opportunities.

Given all that, his 24 victories is quite an achievement, but not something he would likely have gotten had he pitched for let's say the Baltimore Orioles - a team that played 72 games against the toughest division of all of baseball - where the weakest team apart from them is the Toronto Blue Jays, which went 0.500 but went .556 against non AL East teams in the AL.

His ERA is pretty good and leads the AL... by 1 pt. Not exactly dominating is he?

His only truly measure of greatness is his low WHIP, but again, he played so many of his games against inferior opponents.

I'm not saying that Verlander sucks. Far from it. I would vote him for Cy Young if I had a vote. But to say that he's "clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball", well, your arguments just didn't cut it.

EDIT:
Let me just add that Verlander does not lead the AL in some of those "newfangled stats". Fangraphs has him trailing CC Sabathia in WAR 7.1 to 7.0. CC also leads Verlander in FIP and xFIP.

So, I'm confused where this "clearly, hands down..." statement comes from. It's not like Pedro where he was so good that no one could argue that he was not the best at that time.

[lobosloboslobos]

I don't know Manocad...

You definitely have a clear case for saying Verlander is the best pitcher in baseball this season based on all those top ranked stats. Fair enough. But Sifu's points about him playing in the weakest division in baseball and having a historically great reliever saving all his wins (rather than blowing a couple like most guys over the course of a year) are not banal points. They do open the door to at least a discussion about other guys in different situations perhaps doing as well or better this year. So yes he appears to be the best but that position is very much open to legitimate challenges imo, therefore not 'hands down' at all.

[bigboy1234]

How can you say Verlander is a better pitcher than Kershaw since Kershaw has half the ERA, same W/L/IP/SO in the 2nd half? You said last half season, did you not? Does Verlander get a special credit for being sexier in your eyes?

Do you think Jacoby Ellsbury is just as good as a power hitter as Miguel Cabrera? I'm going to guess not because Cabrera gets extra points in the Manocad system because he plays for the Tigers.

Ok, we'll look at non-Tigers, do you think Mike Morse is every bit the hitter Albert Pujols is?

Let's see the answers to the three questions Manocad.

So move along now. Thank you and have a nice day.

Ah, one of those things people say when they realize they are in over there head. See I can play that game too!

[lobosloboslobos]

btw if I may return this thread briefly to Halladay - wasn't that a heck of a performance yesterday? Only once before in post-season history has anyone set down 21 guys in a row. I hated to see that 3 run homer in the 1st but it was worth it to see how he responded. Mental toughness is Doc's single greatest strength imo...

[Zeitgeister]

:lol:
Ah, I see you're one of those "I'm glad you agree that...I see you think that..." when the person said no such thing sort of people. Well, I guess I have to do this then. It's for your own good.

Justin Verlander is clearly, hands down, the best pitcher in baseball today. When you're at the top of every category used to judge being the best and no other person is, it's clear you're the best, hands down. Therefore last night I presented him with my "Clearly, Hands Down Best Pitcher Right Now" award so this isn't open for debate anymore.

So move along now. Thank you and have a nice day.

LOL no he isn't. He's having the best year but that doens't mean he's THE BEST. You have to consider what said player has done over the past few years. If they have consistently been one of the best or the best each year then a strong argument can be made. Verlander has always been good but this year is an anomaly from the rest of his career. Let him play near that level for another year or two and then we can make such claims.

[Apathy]

Was a decent discussion 'til you let yourselves get trolled by Manocad.

[Manocad]

Yeah, no kidding. Especially now that Verlander is playing for a pennant and Halladay isn't.

[Sifu]

Yeah, no kidding. Especially now that Verlander is playing for a pennant and Halladay isn't.

My god, when you're right, you are absolutely 110% right.

Verlander has allowed only 5 ER in 9 innings pitched. His WHIP in those two games is a superb 1.22.

Halladay on the other hand has allowed an astronomical 4 ER in 16 innings pitched. His WHIP in the postseason is a mediocre 0.69.

I mean, the comparisons are totally outrageous. Based on these metrics alone, Verlander is hands down, by far, the undisputed best pitcher at this time. It's so obvious that it could not be more obvious. It's so obvious, we should call the great superhero Captain Obvious - and he'll call it in Verlander's favour.

Oh wait, you mean to say that the lower your ERA and WHIP the better? Huh? How's that work? Now I'm confused? How could the great Manocad be such a tool to say such a thing?

[Sifu]

And Verlander adds to his legend with his latest outing of 4 IP, 3 ER, 5 hits, 2 walks. With outings like these, he's just adding to his greatness and re-inforcing the FACT that he's by far, hands down, no argument, only 'tards can dispute, the greatest of this time.