RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

[MarJJMar]

I dont see how Iverson, Kevin Johnson, Grant Hill and some others are not on the list yet but Tracy McGrady??? Really?? Even Paul Pierce, if it was not for the championship team on which Pierce was not the best player he should never be on that list yet. Pierce individually never was that good of a player.

[Fencer reregistered]

Pierce individually never was that good of a player.

Upon considering the matter, we decided we disagreed with that view. You can see a bunch of posts on the subject, even more in the threads where he was being considered for nomination than when he was voted onto the list.

[PTB Fan]

By the way, for my personal list, i don't have a clear No.1

IMO, there are plenty of guys with good cases for #1 besides Jordan

-Russell
-Jabbar
-Magic
-Bird
-Shaq
-Hakeem
-Timmy
-West
-Big O
-Wilt
-Erving
-Baylor

Now of all these guys, there are guys with terrific cases but there are some with weak cases.

All of those in bold have no case whatsoever.

I'd argue Hakeem and Big O... maybe you can say that Baylor or West kinda fall out but for the first two, definitely a case could be made

[Fencer reregistered]

If I were drafting an all-time team, I'd seriously consider taking Hakeem first. Better offense than Russell. Better defense than Kareem. Better defense and character than Shaq. More important defense than any perimeter player. Etc.

[JordansBulls]

By the way, for my personal list, i don't have a clear No.1

IMO, there are plenty of guys with good cases for #1 besides Jordan

-Russell
-Jabbar
-Magic
-Bird
-Shaq
-Hakeem
-Timmy
-West
-Big O
-Wilt
-Erving
-Baylor

Now of all these guys, there are guys with terrific cases but there are some with weak cases.

All of those in bold have no case whatsoever.

I'd argue Hakeem and Big O... maybe you can say that Baylor or West kinda fall out but for the first two, definitely a case could be made

Definitely not. Big O led a team to 50+ wins once in his career as the best player on it and never won a title as the best player on it and numbers drop from season to playoffs. Hakeem only has a case if you are using his 1993-1995 seasons as if he played that way all the time.

[PTB Fan]

Definitely not. Big O led a team to 50+ wins once in his career as the best player on it and never won a title as the best player on it and numbers drop from season to playoffs. Hakeem only has a case if you are using his 1993-1995 seasons as if he played that way all the time.

Big O was the best all-around player of all time. He had arguably the best stats (it's Wilt, but i'm just making a case for Robertson), most productive offensive player, greatest PG, top post up guard, top 5 passer, dominance, achievements, ability to play in any era etc.

As for his team failures, he was screwed by the league itself as he was placed in the East with his Royals which was a much tougher conference back then (had to face Russell led Celtics, Wilt led teams etc) than in the West. Still, i understand your argument.

I'd also like to say that West, Erving and Baylor are certainly overlooked. Top 10, and maybe even further base on some arguments but their cases aren't in the group with Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird and so on.

Also, Big O's playoff numbers suffer because he wasn't the leader of all of his teams, especially in the days as part of the Bucks.

[PTB Fan]

There are not 12 players in the history of the game with an argument for #1. That's ridiculous.

They are IMO, some of the greatest players ever. You can also add Bob Pettit, Moses Malone, John Havlicek etc

[therealbig3]

So I've been thinking about Jerry West, and where he ranks all time. We voted him in at 15, while Wade was voted in at 22. West seems to have superior statistics, on ridiculous efficiency if you compare it relative to league average...but West's numbers are inflated by pace. And basically, Wade vs West has been more of a debate recently, and I think it goes to show that Wade has an argument there. So first question: are we prepared to say Wade is pretty close to being a top 15 player of all time, and might end up ahead of or right there with Barkley, the Malones, Dirk, and KG?

And another question: Are Oscar and West viewed like Magic and Bird, as inseparable when you rank them (I understand that Bird and Magic have been separated in this project, but for the most part, that's how they're viewed)? So my question is basically...why isn't Oscar seen as clearly better? From everything I've read, he's probably the 2nd best offensive PG of all time, after Magic, and some people might argue he was better than Magic. So Oscar is in the discussion for GOAT offensive player. Was West on that level? I haven't really seen him mentioned when the best offensive players of all time are being discussed, while Oscar is guaranteed to show up. I just bunched West and Oscar together, ahead of guys like KG, Barkley, etc., because I just kind of assumed they were 1a and 1b. But it looks like there should be more of a gap between Oscar and West, because it looks like Oscar was clearly a bit better as an offensive player. And since these are perimeter players we're talking about, Oscar's offense is more important than West's defense.

[ThaRegul8r]

There are not 12 players in the history of the game with an argument for #1. That's ridiculous.

They are IMO, some of the greatest players ever.

I don't ever recall anyone ever saying they weren't some of the greatest players ever. There are still not 12 players in the history of the game with an argument for #1. Not being #1 doesn't preclude someone from being one of the greatest players ever.

[Dr Positivity]

My answer

- The gap between West and Wade is clearly from the latter having half as many great years in my opinion. I think Wade ends up top 15 and I would probably put him in my top 15-17 peaks

- Oscar vs West. I put West ahead because by most accounts, Oscar was an angry prick, and his teams underperformed - it's hard to say whether those are connected but I just don't trust players with the "My teammates are here to help me win" Wilt, Tmac, etc. attitude quite as much as the "I'm here to help my teammates" Russell, Duncan, Magic, etc. one.

[therealbig3]

My answer

- The gap between West and Wade is clearly from the latter having half as many great years in my opinion. I think Wade ends up top 15 and I would probably put him in my top 15-17 peaks

- Oscar vs West. I put West ahead because by most accounts, Oscar was an angry prick, and his teams underperformed - it's hard to say whether those are connected but I just don't trust players with the "My teammates are here to help me win" Wilt, Tmac, etc. attitude quite as much as the "I'm here to help my teammates" Russell, Duncan, Magic, etc. one.

Isn't he known for being pissed off about the racism of the 60's? I think that context is kind of important. Him and Bill Russell were probably most known for being angry because of the racial tension at the time, so they were pricks. But I respect that Oscar, much like Russell, didn't really let that stop him from playing his game and dominating. He still ran the best offenses in the league year in and year out. He was basically to offense what Russell was for defense. West didn't have to deal with any of the crap that Oscar had to.

[lorak]

Wasn't Robertson leader of player association, just like Fisher now? That shows that among players he was highly respected and his leadership was positive despite his bad reputation (maybe white reporters at the time want to show black player, who was fighting for his rights, in bad light?).

[lorak]

I probably wouldn't be able to participate in next several threads, so here's my list:

1. Lanier (yes, Lanier, I think he was better than Gilmore)
2. Zo
3. CP
4. Walton
5. Moncrief
6. Hayes
7. McAdoo
8. Allen
9. KJ


nominations:
1. Rodman
2. Unseld
3. Marques Johnson
4. Greer
5. Arizin

[Doctor MJ]

Wasn't Robertson leader of player association, just like Fisher now? That shows that among players he was highly respected and his leadership was positive despite his bad reputation (maybe white reporters at the time want to show black player, who was fighting for his rights, in bad light?).

To me Oscar's like the smart, driven kid get reluctantly forced into a group project. He knows what everyone should be doing, and pushes to make sure they do it to good effect, but does not inspire, and he most definitely gets resented. This doesn't stop the players from granting him responsibility though, and his curmudgeonly attitude probably helped him be a tougher negotiator against the owners.

[Fencer reregistered]

My answer

- The gap between West and Wade is clearly from the latter having half as many great years in my opinion. I think Wade ends up top 15 and I would probably put him in my top 15-17 peaks

- Oscar vs West. I put West ahead because by most accounts, Oscar was an angry prick, and his teams underperformed - it's hard to say whether those are connected but I just don't trust players with the "My teammates are here to help me win" Wilt, Tmac, etc. attitude quite as much as the "I'm here to help my teammates" Russell, Duncan, Magic, etc. one.

Isn't he known for being pissed off about the racism of the 60's? I think that context is kind of important. Him and Bill Russell were probably most known for being angry because of the racial tension at the time, so they were pricks. But I respect that Oscar, much like Russell, didn't really let that stop him from playing his game and dominating. He still ran the best offenses in the league year in and year out. He was basically to offense what Russell was for defense. West didn't have to deal with any of the crap that Oscar had to.

Russell was pretty close to snapping under the racism, and he was quite fortunate in the white guys around the team, specifically Auerbach and Cousy, and also in having a college roommate/teammate (K. C. Jones) come seamlessly to the pros with him.

[JordansBulls]

I probably wouldn't be able to participate in next several threads, so here's my list:

1. Lanier (yes, Lanier, I think he was better than Gilmore)
2. Zo
3. CP
4. Walton
5. Moncrief
6. Hayes
7. McAdoo
8. Allen
9. KJ


nominations:
1. Rodman
2. Unseld
3. Marques Johnson
4. Greer
5. Arizin

How does Rodman deserve to be nominated over a guy who won ROY, MVP and Finals MVP?

[Doctor MJ]

How does Rodman deserve to be nominated over a guy who won ROY, MVP and Finals MVP?

If Stern thought Unseld deserved the MVP, I'm quite sure he'd have him ahead of Rodman.

[Jordan24]

lol @ some dudes have KG in their top 10. LOLLLLL

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

I'm giving a vote for Pete Maravich to be in there somewhere.

I couldn't help but redo the top 30 for myself...

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Tim Duncan
10) Karl Malone
11) Hakeem Olajuwon
12) Oscar Robertson
13) John Stockton
14) Scottie Pippen
15) Julius Erving
16) Kevin Garnett
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) Jerry West
19) Moses Malone
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwayne Wade
23) Elgin Baylor
24) Bob Pettit
25) Walt Frazier
26) Jason Kidd
27) Isiah Thomas
28) Patrick Ewing
29) John Havlicek
30) Rick Barry

[therealbig3]

^How do you support Malone over Hakeem?