Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[barrist]

It may not be a very popular or politically correct thing to say, but it's likely true.

The majority of players in the NBA are black.
Black people, especially men, disproportionally make up the prison population in the US and just recently it was noted that more than a quarter of blacks live under the poverty line in the US, with an unemployment rate of 17%. It's not racist, it just sucks to be black in America.

However I don't agree that these players should be grovelling at the feet of the owners, so thankful for getting out of the ghetto that they should accept whatever the owners want. They have a right as a union to negotiate. The owners didn't use their "business acument" to help poor black folk out of poverty, they want to make money plain and simple.

[whoknows]

That's pretty stereotypical and racist.

You care to explain why do you feel that way or you just want to continue to spam while fulfilling your agenda?

It's obvious that you assume that most of the players will be in trouble with the law because of the colour of their skin. Otherwise how else would you come to a conclusion like that when you know nothing about the player's lives outside of basketball?

Of course the players life outside basketball is highly publicized. Are you reading the news or just like to stir s***?
Where did I imply that colour of people skin has anything to do with trouble with law?
What race are: Delonte West, Chris Anderson, etc?

You loose credibility when you attack people without a base and obviously here you are the one that is stereotypical in your assumptions.
I fully support Morgan Freemen's view - to eliminate racism, ignore someone's skin colour, just don't talk about it.

[highness]

Of course the players life outside basketball is highly publicized. Are you reading the news or just like to stir s***?
Where did I imply that colour of people skin has anything to do with trouble with law?
What race are: Delonte West, Chris Anderson, etc?

You loose credibility when you attack people without a base and obviously here you are the one that is stereotypical in your assumptions.
I fully support Morgan Freemen's view - to eliminate racism, ignore someone's skin colour, just don't talk about it.

You are judging the whole NBA population based on the actions of a few players. That is stereotyping.

[whoknows]

...The owners didn't use their "business acument" to help poor black folk out of poverty, they want to make money plain and simple.

First of all this has noting to do with race, this is not a race restrictive league, there is no restriction (but skills) to be part of NBA.
Also, the same applies to majority of athletes around the world. It is a fact that most athletes (soccer, hockey, football, basketball, etc) in the world are mostly physically gifted.
WIth few exceptions, their intellectual development is not on par with their physical ability, therefore earning capabilities would be drastically reduced (if not part of sports). Sure they deserve to get paid above average salaries since they are in entertainment business. However, their salaries should not prevent their employees to gain profit.

Also, the fact that owners of business are in to make a profit should be no surprise. That's true of all businesses. How would you feel as a business owner when your employee would make same money like you do?
Problem is that most of you employees, have this wrong entitlement embedded into your brain. If possible you wish to make as much money as possible while doing the least.
Try to change and think like an owner and you'll see things from a real/different perspective. The result of this change for you it is a successful, rewarding career - just by taking ownership of your job.

It is obvious here that most who support the union (players) never had a business, or understand how hard is to maintain a successful business (aka business acumen). Puzzling enough, most of same union supporters would agree that successful businesses are required to support/maintain a strong economy (good jobs for you)...

[Fairview4Life]

It is obvious here that most who support the union (players) never had a business, or understand how hard is to maintain a successful business (aka business acumen). Puzzling enough, most of same union supporters would agree that successful businesses are required to support/maintain a strong economy (good jobs for you)...

What is obvious is that you have no idea how the NBA 'business' functions.

[whoknows]

It is obvious here that most who support the union (players) never had a business, or understand how hard is to maintain a successful business (aka business acumen). Puzzling enough, most of same union supporters would agree that successful businesses are required to support/maintain a strong economy (good jobs for you)...

What is obvious is that you have no idea how the NBA 'business' functions.

and you do because...let's hear your credentials...

[Fairview4Life]

It is obvious here that most who support the union (players) never had a business, or understand how hard is to maintain a successful business (aka business acumen). Puzzling enough, most of same union supporters would agree that successful businesses are required to support/maintain a strong economy (good jobs for you)...

What is obvious is that you have no idea how the NBA 'business' functions.

and you do because...let's hear your credentials...

I am a dinosaur riding astronaut who has owned and operated 7 professional basketball leagues. Successful ones.

[whoknows]

What is obvious is that you have no idea how the NBA 'business' functions.

and you do because...let's hear your credentials...

I am a dinosaur riding astronaut who has owned and operated 7 professional basketball leagues. Successful ones.

Yep, I thought so...
Only now we get to understand the depth of your over 30,000 posts

[Fairview4Life]

and you do because...let's hear your credentials...

I am a dinosaur riding astronaut who has owned and operated 7 professional basketball leagues. Successful ones.

Yep, I thought so...
Only now we get to understand the depth of your over 30,000 posts :roll:

What are your credentials? I will believe them because we are on the internet, and no one makes **** up on there.

Wait, I don't actually care. i have your posts on here as evidence you don't really understand the NBA or how it's business functions. That speaks a little more loudly than your proclaimed credentials.

[I_Like_Dirt]

whoknows, the point here is that those players wouldn't be as poorly off as you suggest if the NBA didn't exist. If the NBA didn't exist, there would be a professional basketball league that would pop up in North America incredibly quickly and would employ a lot of those players.

The fact is, the NBA does exist, whether or not it chooses to play games, which serves as an inhibitor towards a different league popping up elsewhere. So basically, if the NBA chooses not to play games the players would be fine if the league decided to completely disband, but so long as it's there warding off potential competition from starting up the players are screwed. The owners are prefectly entitled to do this, but fairview is right, it's pretty obvious you either just don't get a few of the details, or you're just intentionally ingoring them.

[S.W.A.N]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

Always a reason to watch if you are a real fan.

Player development; Derozan Bayless Ed Davis Amir JJ, are all young guys that could/should improve this year and how much they develop will factor a huge amount in our future plans.

New Coach; Can Casey get Calderon and Bargnani to play defense ? Can he make this team of misfits into a sneaky deaky zone playing respectable team?

How many Little Ozzy T-shirts can we get onto the telecast?

So many good reasons to watch basketball regardless of wins and losses

[Laowai]

Yeah if you're a Raps fan there's little reason to want basketball this year.

Always a reason to watch if you are a real fan.

Player development; Derozan Bayless Ed Davis Amir JJ, are all young guys that could/should improve this year and how much they develop will factor a huge amount in our future plans.

New Coach; Can Casey get Calderon and Bargnani to play defense ? Can he make this team of misfits into a sneaky deaky zone playing respectable team?

How many Little Ozzy T-shirts can we get onto the telecast?

So many good reasons to watch basketball regardless of wins and losses

Totally agree like to see a season that doesn't mean that I'm not pessimistic that we will have even a shortened season. The players have destroyed themselves not accepting 50/50% and.I do believe that Stern had to bully owners to get them there and has lost much of his glitter.

I know if I was a owner of 85% of the teams I would have been displeased at 50% especially without a hard cap and players concessions on current contracts. I believe that the players now face a huge humiliation and significant losses. The trump card of decertifying the union has as many negative implications as possible positive ones for the players.

[J-Roc]

Yoda is all wise.

[Parataxis]

If the NBA does the Draft lottery like the NHL did after their lockout, that's bad for the Raptors.

If the NBA holds a lottery with the same percentages as last year's, then it is goo for the Raptors.

It depends because no one knows yet how the NBA would hold the lottery if there was a full season.

The NHL did that draft based on the last 3 years of playoff appearances and getting a #1 pick. Raptors haven't been in the playoffs for 3 years and haven't had a #1 pick since 2006. We'd still get a top 5 pick either way.

Yeah, except that is not at all true. If they go with the NHL system, the Raps would end up with 3 ping pong balls, along with 4 other teams, out of a total of 50 ping pong balls given out. Ten teams would have 2 balls, and the other 15 would have 1. That leaves them with a 6% chance at the top pick. But it in no way guaranteed them a top 5 pick. In all likelihood, they would slip to 9th or later in that system.

Think of it this way: there's an 94% chance that the Raps don't get the 1st pick. Assuming the other picks go by order of likelihood (outside the Raps), there's then a 93% chance they don't get the 2nd pick. 93% for the 3rd pick. 92% for the 4th pick. 92% for the 5th pick. 91% for the 6th pick. 91%. 90%. 90%. 89%. 88%. 87%. 86%. 85%. 84%. Etc.

So their aggregate chance of winning a pick goes as follows (roughly):
1st pick: 6%
Top 2: 13%
Top 3: 19%
Top 4: 25%
Top 5: 31%
Top 6: 37%
Top 7: 43%
Top 8: 48%
Top 9: 53%

So you can see, the 50% threshold is at about pick 8.5. So they are just as likely to get a bottom 12 pick as they are to get a top 8 pick. Not so good. The Raps need this season to be played unless the NBA decides to simply redo the lottery with the same positions as last year.

Top 8 vs bottom 22, no? 48% to get a 8 or better equals 52% to get 9th or worse, unless I'm missing something obvious (and may be, as I just got back from work)

[dhackett1565]

Top 8 vs bottom 22, no? 48% to get a 8 or better equals 52% to get 9th or worse, unless I'm missing something obvious (and may be, as I just got back from work)

Yes, sorry, bottom 22. But my point is they are as likely not to get a top 8 pick as they are to get one. So, by no means guaranteed a top 5 pick.

[Schad]

It is obvious here that most who support the union (players) never had a business, or understand how hard is to maintain a successful business (aka business acumen).

I've managed a business. Before being purchased by my family, it was owned by an idiot who almost ran it into the ground, in large part because he felt that as a business owner, he was entitled to make a lot of money...he paid himself a large salary, and leveraged the business to finance things like the expansion of his home or purchasing company vehicles for his own use. The market conditions were comically favourable (it was the only large company in the market, such that it was virtually impossible for him to alienate his clientele sufficiently that they'd go elsewhere), but he almost drove it into bankruptcy through his arrogance. If when it was on the verge of collapse, he'd demanded concessions from his employees to maintain the way of life to which he was accustomed rather than selling it to someone more competent, the cycle would've continued...he'd have seen it as an opportunity to paid himself ever more and more, until the business inevitably went under.

Right now, the NBA owners are asking the players for massive concessions because they've managed to **** up despite an ever-growing pie...they've placed teams in markets that cannot support them, they've used the teams as leverage for loans, they've bought on debt. And now they're stating that they are losing money, not because they have been undone by conditions, but because they have failed.

And if they won the massive concessions that they initially wanted, it would signal one thing to them: they have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the next time their arrogance gets the best out of them. That's not "running a successful business"; that's being lucky enough to own a franchise in a sport shielded from anti-trust law, where no amount of incompetence can take away their inalienable right to turn a buck.

[Laowai]

Your analogy of your boss is nice but not really the case in regards to the NBA.
Yes some teams make loads of money primarily LAL,Boston, NYKs and many teams are run very efficiently. A prime example is the SAS they are unable to make a profit because they are a small market team that has excellent management have been extremely capable in getting excellent players. They have paid them well and have a payroll of 73 million not including 2 1st round draft choices.

Comcast was Phillys owner and are very competent organization and sold the 76ers because of economics.

Teams like Indy, SAC, Memphis, Charlotte, Bucks, Cleveland have little or no chance of making money in the current structure. Sorry I have little sympathy for the majority of the players because the game becomes only $ signs. I remember Spreys comment that 30 million wasn't enough to feed his family. He lost the contract and just had his house repoed.

[Schad]

Your analogy of your boss is nice but not really the case in regards to the NBA.
Yes some teams make loads of money primarily LAL,Boston, NYKs and many teams are run very efficiently. A prime example is the SAS they are unable to make a profit because they are a small market team that has excellent management have been extremely capable in getting excellent players. They have paid them well and have a payroll of 73 million not including 2 1st round draft choices.

San Antonio has been highly profitable. 2010 is the only year they've failed to make a profit in a decade, and that loss was small compared to the money made previous:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/bas ... 23002.html

Teams like Indy, SAC, Memphis, Charlotte, Bucks, Cleveland have little or no chance of making money in the current structure.

Some of those teams have little chance of making money under any structure, just as the NHL's hard cap hasn't miraculously allowed every team to make money; the strugglers now were the strugglers then. This is the problem...the owners are demanding concessions from the players because they have sited teams in markets that simply cannot be profitable, and no amount of salary-slashing will change that.

[S.W.A.N]

Your analogy of your boss is nice but not really the case in regards to the NBA.
Yes some teams make loads of money primarily LAL,Boston, NYKs and many teams are run very efficiently. A prime example is the SAS they are unable to make a profit because they are a small market team that has excellent management have been extremely capable in getting excellent players. They have paid them well and have a payroll of 73 million not including 2 1st round draft choices.

Comcast was Phillys owner and are very competent organization and sold the 76ers because of economics.

Teams like Indy, SAC, Memphis, Charlotte, Bucks, Cleveland have little or no chance of making money in the current structure. Sorry I have little sympathy for the majority of the players because the game becomes only $ signs. I remember Spreys comment that 30 million wasn't enough to feed his family. He lost the contract and just had his house repoed.

Comcast didn't sell because they were losing money, they gave themselves a sweet heart deal for the broadcast rights then sold the team. Huge difference...

[Gold Chain]

I'm keeping my eye on all this stuff, and hope we get a season, but the NBA and it's Player's Union will get zero interest from me until they start playing again.

NHL sucked me in during last lockout, won't happen again.