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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1181 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 pm

Haisan wrote:Nice to hear Amare Stoudamire talking about the players starting their own league, if only in the interim. If the players are will to do the work to run their own league, it might really change their relationship with the NBA.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... own-league

I don't think a player-owned league is realistically going to happen or would produce better basketball, but at some point being willing to man-up and walk the walk would put the two sides on a more even footing.


Can anyone think of what this would look like, realistically? Where would the money come from and where would they play? How would they keep players from jumping to the NBA? How would they agree to divide the money amongst themselves?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1182 » by dhackett1565 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:32 pm

knickerbocker2k2 wrote:It is fixed because player salaries are never more than 57% of BRI. Salaries have only gone up because the revenue has gone up. The ratio revenue/player cost is fixed.


Whoa, whoa - you're saying that 57% hasn't gone up?

In '95, the BRI split wasn't defined in the agreement - salaries were controlled only by the salary cap structure - which meant that salaries grew year after year in terms of percent of BRI. The split that year was under 50% for the players. The CBA had a clause in it so that if the BRI split went above 51.8% in favour of the players, the owners could nullify the agreement.

In '98, the BRI split had grown to 58%. The owners canceled the CBA, and the infamous lockout was on. In those negotiations, the owners were taken for all they had - they managed to get an escrow system put in place to restrict salaries to 55%, but for half of the years it was in effect, the overage was higher than the 10% the owners were allowed to hold in escrow, and players salaries kept on growing. At the same time, since the owners got the escrow system they wanted, the mid level exception and other means to sign players were won by the union. This is part of the reason spending kept growing so quickly. It got up to 61% before the next CBA agreement.

In the 2005 CBA agreement, the owners attacked the system - lower contract values, shorter contracts, restricted player movement to try to curtail spending - but again, to get these restrictions, they had to allow the BRI split to rise to 57% for the players, and also had their allowed withheld escrow drop to 8% - this was seen as an owners victory due to the existing 61% mentioned before. This came back to bite them when player salaries ballooned to 63% despite the restrictions put in place, and once again found themselves in a situation where the escrow withheld was not enough to contain player salaries, which just kept rising, due to the system.

The BRI split is in no way constant - it has been rising consistently for decades. In fact, even when the owners fell on "hard" times recently, and actually had a reason to try to save money instead of trying to compete, and they finally managed to spend less than the 57% defined - they had to pay to top the total salaries up to that point. This is why the system rules (especially a hard cap, or effectively one) are just as important as the BRI split. You'll notice the leagues hasn't backed off the extreme luxury tax position - they've learned from the past that they need a low BRI so they don't have to shell out to the players at the end of the year if they don't spend, and they need a system that curtails spending without giving a competitive advantage to the 'rich' teams, so they aren't just increasing the BRI split year after year by spending over the escrow allowance.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1183 » by J-Roc » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:55 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Haisan wrote:Nice to hear Amare Stoudamire talking about the players starting their own league, if only in the interim. If the players are will to do the work to run their own league, it might really change their relationship with the NBA.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... own-league

I don't think a player-owned league is realistically going to happen or would produce better basketball, but at some point being willing to man-up and walk the walk would put the two sides on a more even footing.


Can anyone think of what this would look like, realistically? Where would the money come from and where would they play? How would they keep players from jumping to the NBA? How would they agree to divide the money amongst themselves?


I don't see how it's possible. Someone of authority has to make decisions on playing time, who gets to put up shots, and therefore who makes more money. Otherwise players have to play for equal money. And you know that's not happening.

Probably the most realistic model is the pro league just blows itself up and starts over. And by starting over, they start with a new iron clad CBA. Perhaps revenue sharing, but definitely players are limited. 25% BRI if they're lucky.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1184 » by carlosey » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:10 pm

Haisan wrote:Nice to hear Amare Stoudamire talking about the players starting their own league, if only in the interim. If the players are will to do the work to run their own league, it might really change their relationship with the NBA.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... own-league

I don't think a player-owned league is realistically going to happen or would produce better basketball, but at some point being willing to man-up and walk the walk would put the two sides on a more even footing.


This just shows you how delusional this generation of players have gotten. I assume because they dont take any of the risk in this system, they dont really understand what it takes to get the product out there. It would take years to accomplish what the NBA has been maintaining for over 50. Not to mention that the starting point for them is a much much lower investment between their salaries, agent loans and possibly some ad revenue but nowhere even close to what the NBA has today. Amare would be retired for long before said league is able to make any noise on a national level.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1185 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:11 pm

J-Roc wrote:Probably the most realistic model is the pro league just blows itself up and starts over. And by starting over, they start with a new iron clad CBA. Perhaps revenue sharing, but definitely players are limited. 25% BRI if they're lucky.


And then Mark Cuban starts up his own league, offers significantly more money, and steals all the best players and the new league offering 25% of their BRI adapts or dies. Just like in the 70's. The incumbent has a big head start, but your "realistic" model is nonsense and doomed to fail.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1186 » by youngaffer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:18 pm

knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
redraptors wrote:1) J Roc said it. Control wages and costs you increase your selling potential and year after year income.
If teams are losing money year after year are you willing to purchase that team? \right. who would buy the teams \billionaires who dont care about money :) not many of them out there.


This summer with looming lockout, there were no problems in finding new owners. And it doesn't help your argument that franchise values have consistently gone up during the life of the current CBA.



errr.... No. The league could not find a buyer for New Orleans, hence the league owns the team. Furthermore, the supply of very rich people is going down in North America hence the need to bring in overseas owners like Mikhail Prokhorov. This too is a limited pool unless the league becomes global with franchises in Asia and Europe. As for the franchise values consistently going up, that is historically true but going forward, without a reduction in BRI, highly doubtful given the state of the US economy.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1187 » by J-Roc » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:47 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
J-Roc wrote:Probably the most realistic model is the pro league just blows itself up and starts over. And by starting over, they start with a new iron clad CBA. Perhaps revenue sharing, but definitely players are limited. 25% BRI if they're lucky.


And then Mark Cuban starts up his own league, offers significantly more money, and steals all the best players and the new league offering 25% of their BRI adapts or dies. Just like in the 70's. The incumbent has a big head start, but your "realistic" model is nonsense and doomed to fail.


And how much of BRI do you expect Mark Cuban to offer? Seriously. Whoever offers the best deal, you can be damn sure it's not as much as the players are getting now. Even though the NBA makes all this money these days.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1188 » by whoknows » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:13 pm

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... ef:nbahpt1
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... g_pt2.nba/

Please listen to the videos above to see the perspective on lockout from Sir Charles & Reggie Miller perspective.
As Charles is again the voice of reason, I too don't see an agreement unless there is a 50% split.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1189 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:38 pm

youngaffer wrote:
knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
redraptors wrote:1) J Roc said it. Control wages and costs you increase your selling potential and year after year income.
If teams are losing money year after year are you willing to purchase that team? \right. who would buy the teams \billionaires who dont care about money :) not many of them out there.


This summer with looming lockout, there were no problems in finding new owners. And it doesn't help your argument that franchise values have consistently gone up during the life of the current CBA.



errr.... No. The league could not find a buyer for New Orleans, hence the league owns the team.


Wrong. The league can find plenty of buyers. What the league can't find is some schmuck who's willing to keep that team in New Orleans, seeing as how they don't want to look foolish by removing a team from a city devastated by Hurricane Katrina. If you take a look at their economic numbers and dropping population, there aren't too many billionaires who would be dumb enough to keep the team there. That team will eventually relocate before the end of this decade. If Stern put up a "For Sale" sign outside the Hornets front office tomorrow, but allowing the buyer to move that team to the city of his choice, Larry Ellison, with his net worth of $28 billion, would be first in line. The guy lost out on getting the Warriors last year, despite being the highest bidder. They sold for $450 million. $450 MILLION. A team that has had losing seasons 14 out of 16 years prior to its sale was worth $450 MILLION, and Mr. Ellison submitted a bid higher than that. If the Warriors are worth that much, then I'm not too sure the league is in trouble.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1190 » by whoknows » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:47 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
youngaffer wrote:
knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
This summer with looming lockout, there were no problems in finding new owners. And it doesn't help your argument that franchise values have consistently gone up during the life of the current CBA.



errr.... No. The league could not find a buyer for New Orleans, hence the league owns the team.


Wrong. The league can find plenty of buyers. What the league can't find is some schmuck who's willing to keep that team in New Orleans, seeing as how they don't want to look foolish by removing a team from a city devastated by Hurricane Katrina. If you take a look at their economic numbers and dropping population, there aren't too many billionaires who would be dumb enough to keep the team there. That team will eventually relocate before the end of this decade. If Stern put up a "For Sale" sign outside the Hornets front office tomorrow, but allowing the buyer to move that team to the city of his choice, Larry Ellison, with his net worth of $28 billion, would be first in line.


Where would did he say he would relocate the team? I don't see the Bay as a feasible location...
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1191 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:53 pm

whoknows wrote:Where would did he say he would relocate the team? I don't see the Bay as a feasible location...


He would have kept them there. If his sole intention is to just be part of the boys' club known as NBA owners, then Seattle would be a great place to relocate a team to. Anaheim is hungry for a team. St. Louis has also been mentioned. Hell, even Vancouver would be a better market than New Orleans.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1192 » by Parataxis » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:07 pm

J-Roc wrote:Probably the most realistic model is the pro league just blows itself up and starts over. And by starting over, they start with a new iron clad CBA. Perhaps revenue sharing, but definitely players are limited. 25% BRI if they're lucky.


How is that remotely realistic? You realise, I hope, that the A in CBA means 'agreement'?

The league can't just impose a CBA.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1193 » by youngaffer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:09 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
youngaffer wrote:
knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
This summer with looming lockout, there were no problems in finding new owners. And it doesn't help your argument that franchise values have consistently gone up during the life of the current CBA.



errr.... No. The league could not find a buyer for New Orleans, hence the league owns the team.


Wrong. The league can find plenty of buyers. What the league can't find is some schmuck who's willing to keep that team in New Orleans, seeing as how they don't want to look foolish by removing a team from a city devastated by Hurricane Katrina. If you take a look at their economic numbers and dropping population, there aren't too many billionaires who would be dumb enough to keep the team there. That team will eventually relocate before the end of this decade. If Stern put up a "For Sale" sign outside the Hornets front office tomorrow, but allowing the buyer to move that team to the city of his choice, Larry Ellison, with his net worth of $28 billion, would be first in line. The guy lost out on getting the Warriors last year, despite being the highest bidder. They sold for $450 million. $450 MILLION. A team that has had losing seasons 14 out of 16 years prior to its sale was worth $450 MILLION, and Mr. Ellison submitted a bid higher than that. If the Warriors are worth that much, then I'm not too sure the league is in trouble.


Okay, I should have been more specific and stated that to buy a franchise you cannot move that team.

Also, if you believe Forbes magazine, Ellison would be more than happy to buy the Hornets for $450 under one small condition: "My source says Ellison would be more than happy to pony up $450 million for the Hornets (including a relocation fee for the Warriors) given the improved economics for NBA teams that will be the result of the new collective bargaining agreement."

So are you sure you want to use this example for keeping the existing CBA?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2011/01/05/larry-ellison-might-buy-new-orleans-hornets-and-move-them-to-san-jose/
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1194 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:21 pm

youngaffer wrote:
Okay, I should have been more specific and stated that to buy a franchise you cannot move that team.

Also, if you believe Forbes magazine, Ellison would be more than happy to buy the Hornets for $450 under one small condition: "My source says Ellison would be more than happy to pony up $450 million for the Hornets (including a relocation fee for the Warriors) given the improved economics for NBA teams that will be the result of the new collective bargaining agreement."

So are you sure you want to use this example for keeping the existing CBA?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2011/01/05/larry-ellison-might-buy-new-orleans-hornets-and-move-them-to-san-jose/


Sure. Because it means even garbage teams are still worth $450 million. If the league was really losing hand over fist, then teams would be selling below the amount initially paid for them. He bid more than $450 million for the Warriors BEFORE the lockout.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1195 » by Haisan » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:45 pm

dhackett1565 wrote:Whoa, whoa - you're saying that 57% hasn't gone up?

In '95, the BRI split wasn't defined in the agreement - salaries were controlled only by the salary cap structure - which meant that salaries grew year after year in terms of percent of BRI. The split that year was under 50% for the players. The CBA had a clause in it so that if the BRI split went above 51.8% in favour of the players, the owners could nullify the agreement.

In '98, the BRI split had grown to 58%. The owners canceled the CBA, and the infamous lockout was on. In those negotiations, the owners were taken for all they had - they managed to get an escrow system put in place to restrict salaries to 55%, but for half of the years it was in effect, the overage was higher than the 10% the owners were allowed to hold in escrow, and players salaries kept on growing. At the same time, since the owners got the escrow system they wanted, the mid level exception and other means to sign players were won by the union. This is part of the reason spending kept growing so quickly. It got up to 61% before the next CBA agreement.

In the 2005 CBA agreement, the owners attacked the system - lower contract values, shorter contracts, restricted player movement to try to curtail spending - but again, to get these restrictions, they had to allow the BRI split to rise to 57% for the players, and also had their allowed withheld escrow drop to 8% - this was seen as an owners victory due to the existing 61% mentioned before. This came back to bite them when player salaries ballooned to 63% despite the restrictions put in place, and once again found themselves in a situation where the escrow withheld was not enough to contain player salaries, which just kept rising, due to the system.

The BRI split is in no way constant - it has been rising consistently for decades. In fact, even when the owners fell on "hard" times recently, and actually had a reason to try to save money instead of trying to compete, and they finally managed to spend less than the 57% defined - they had to pay to top the total salaries up to that point. This is why the system rules (especially a hard cap, or effectively one) are just as important as the BRI split. You'll notice the leagues hasn't backed off the extreme luxury tax position - they've learned from the past that they need a low BRI so they don't have to shell out to the players at the end of the year if they don't spend, and they need a system that curtails spending without giving a competitive advantage to the 'rich' teams, so they aren't just increasing the BRI split year after year by spending over the escrow allowance.


Do you have a source for those numbers you throw around? Because they do not jive with any of the numbers I have heard... Everything I have seen has said the players have gotten around 57% of the BRI for the past decade. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have not seen any numbers to back up what you say (sadly, I cannot find anything at the moment that shows otherwise... except for an old RealGM thread that says player share of BRI has been 53-57% since 1983 or so.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1196 » by youngaffer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:49 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
youngaffer wrote:
Okay, I should have been more specific and stated that to buy a franchise you cannot move that team.

Also, if you believe Forbes magazine, Ellison would be more than happy to buy the Hornets for $450 under one small condition: "My source says Ellison would be more than happy to pony up $450 million for the Hornets (including a relocation fee for the Warriors) given the improved economics for NBA teams that will be the result of the new collective bargaining agreement."

So are you sure you want to use this example for keeping the existing CBA?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2011/01/05/larry-ellison-might-buy-new-orleans-hornets-and-move-them-to-san-jose/


Sure. Because it means even garbage teams are still worth $450 million. If the league was really losing hand over fist, then teams would be selling below the amount initially paid for them. He bid more than $450 million for the Warriors BEFORE the lockout.


I am not sure you read the Forbes article; he was assuming a new business agreement, not the existing CBA.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1197 » by J-Roc » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Parataxis wrote:
J-Roc wrote:Probably the most realistic model is the pro league just blows itself up and starts over. And by starting over, they start with a new iron clad CBA. Perhaps revenue sharing, but definitely players are limited. 25% BRI if they're lucky.


How is that remotely realistic? You realise, I hope, that the A in CBA means 'agreement'?

The league can't just impose a CBA.


Then not a CBA. Something like Vince McMahon dreamt for the XFL. Some sort of single entity league as opposed to individually operated franchises.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1198 » by dhackett1565 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:40 pm

Haisan wrote:Do you have a source for those numbers you throw around? Because they do not jive with any of the numbers I have heard... Everything I have seen has said the players have gotten around 57% of the BRI for the past decade. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have not seen any numbers to back up what you say (sadly, I cannot find anything at the moment that shows otherwise... except for an old RealGM thread that says player share of BRI has been 53-57% since 1983 or so.


All of my info comes from Larry Coon's 2005 and 1999 CBA FAQ.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1199 » by Laowai » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:59 pm

Golden State is a unique situation in that they will be moving to San Francisco.
Look at how tough it was for the Pistons, Hawks & 76ers to be sold.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#1200 » by RocLaFamilia » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:46 am

What does this mediation do for negotiations? Anyone think this is a good or bad thing?
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