Why do the stats hate on Kobe Bryant?

[EarlTheGoat]

The numbers say Kobe is barely top20 yet you think he is clearly top10 based on what?

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares

Code: Select all

Rank   Player   WS
1.   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*   273.41
2.   Wilt Chamberlain*   247.26
3.   Karl Malone*   234.62
4.   Michael Jordan*   214.02
5.   John Stockton*   207.70
6.   Artis Gilmore*   189.65
7.   Oscar Robertson*   189.21
8.   Shaquille O'Neal   181.71
9.   Julius Erving*   181.11
10.   Moses Malone*   179.17
11.   David Robinson*   178.67
12.   Charles Barkley*   177.21
13.   Kevin Garnett   174.68
14.   Reggie Miller   174.40
15.   Tim Duncan   170.00
16.   Bill Russell*   163.51
17.   Hakeem Olajuwon*   162.77
18.   Jerry West*   162.58
19.   Dirk Nowitzki   161.30
20.   Dan Issel*   157.82
21.   Kobe Bryant   156.27

Once we penalize ABA players.

Code: Select all

1.    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*    273.41
2.    Wilt Chamberlain*    247.26
3.    Karl Malone*    234.62
4.    Michael Jordan*    214.02
5.    John Stockton*    207.70
6.    Oscar Robertson*    189.21
7.    Shaquille O'Neal    181.71
8.    David Robinson*    178.67
9.    Charles Barkley*    177.21
[b]10.    Kevin Garnett    174.68[/b]
11.    Reggie Miller    174.40
[b]12.    Tim Duncan    170.00[/b]
13.    Moses Malone*    167.07
14.    Bill Russell*    163.51
15.    Hakeem Olajuwon*    162.77
16.    Jerry West*    162.58
17.    Dirk Nowitzki    161.30
[b]18.    Kobe Bryant    156.27[/b]
19.    Magic Johnson*    155.79
20.    Robert Parish*    147.00

What are we saying Bryant is top 10 in again? career longevity?
Who you want to carry your team on both sides of the ball?
or One side of the ball?


By himself Kobe is not top 10 in generating wins. Although other players had better single seasons it seems were talking longevity/careers here!

Bryant at age 33 just had 10.3 win shares for regular season and 35% usage. Duncan+Garnett two big men still active. Where will KB end up?

Aint you`re the same guy who said James Worthy is in the GOAT discussion?

Please.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Aw...win shares.

Did I mention in my above post this board's ridiculous obsession with so called "advanced" stats?

[eloper]

2 things:

1. Kobe, as mentioned earlier, has to create his own shot. Creating your own shot is significantly more difficult than spotting up for an assisted shot. He could certainly be more efficient in a different role...if he were ever willing to defer a bit.

2. Kobe settles for some bad shots at times. People see him make some incredible shots and think "OMG HE'S THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!" but fail to realize that he probably shouldn't have been taking that shot to begin with. The ability to hit difficult shots is valuable in certain situations, but the ability to avoid difficult shots is far more valuable.

[Ruhiel]

Aint you`re the same guy who said James Worthy is in the GOAT discussion?

Please.

What?
......
Kobe Bryant top 10 in career achievements is that what the f**k we're judging?

Who gives a f**k.
If I have everyone in their primes I'm not taking Kobe Bryant to carry my team. That's what others are asking, and what causes guys like Mike Jordan say Kobe is "top 10 guard".

WS/48

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3399
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3251
5. Michael Jordan* 0.3211
6. LeBron James 0.3183
10. David Robinson* 0.2960
11. Chris Paul 0.2925
19. Shaquille O'Neal 0.2830
22. Oscar Robertson* 0.2785
23. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2780
28. Kevin Garnett 0.2723
29. Magic Johnson* 0.2704
32. Charles Barkley* 0.2691
34. Chet Walker 0.2685
36. Karl Malone* 0.2676
46. Amare Stoudemire 0.2619
47. Tracy McGrady 0.2617
50. Jerry West* 0.2611
58. Chauncey Billups 0.2574
60. Tim Duncan 0.2569
80. Moses Malone* 0.2480
85. Bob Pettit* 0.2465
86. Manu Ginobili 0.2459
93. Larry Bird* 0.2438
107. Dwyane Wade 0.2388
109. Kevin Durant 0.2384
110. Bill Russell* 0.2384
114. John Stockton* 0.2377
118. Karl Malone* 0.2371
124. Walt Frazier* 0.2361
125. Adrian Dantley* 0.2350
126. Terry Porter 0.2349
127. Vern Mikkelsen* 0.2346
128. Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.2342
129. Jerry West* 0.2342
130. Frank Ramsey* 0.2340
131. Dwight Howard 0.2340
132. Bill Russell* 0.2337
133. Karl Malone* 0.2334
134. Walt Bellamy* 0.2333
135. John Stockton* 0.2331
136. Karl Malone* 0.2331
137. Marcus Camby 0.2330
138. Sidney Moncrief 0.2329
139. Kevin McHale* 0.2324
140. Harry Gallatin* 0.2324
141. Manu Ginobili 0.2324
142. Neil Johnston* 0.2324
143. Pau Gasol 0.2323
144. LeBron James 0.2322
145. Oscar Robertson* 0.2320
146. Chris Paul 0.2319
147. Jerry West* 0.2318
148. Dwyane Wade 0.2316
149. Julius Erving* 0.2311
150. Toni Kukoc 0.2308
151. Bob McAdoo* 0.2306
152. Shaquille O'Neal 0.2304
153. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2301
154. Tim Duncan 0.2298
155. Elton Brand 0.2294
156. Julius Erving* 0.2294
157. Anfernee Hardaway 0.2293
158. Oscar Robertson* 0.2290
159. Dolph Schayes* 0.2288
160. Robert Parish* 0.2280
161. Willis Reed* 0.2275
162. Bob Lanier* 0.2272
163. Willis Reed* 0.2268
164. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2266
165. Elgin Baylor* 0.2266
166. Bailey Howell* 0.2265
168. Brad Daugherty 0.2263
169. Alonzo Mourning 0.2259
170. Dolph Schayes* 0.2258
171. Magic Johnson* 0.2256
172. John Stockton* 0.2256
173. Kevin Garnett 0.2254
174. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2252
175. Karl Malone* 0.2251
176. Dolph Schayes* 0.2251
177. Steve Nash 0.2251
178. Dolph Schayes* 0.2247
179. Larry Bird* 0.2245
180. Neil Johnston* 0.2245
181. Shaquille O'Neal 0.2245
182. Charles Barkley* 0.2242
183. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2242
184. Bob Pettit* 0.2242
185. Dwyane Wade 0.2240
186. Kobe Bryant 0.2240

#186 on per minute basis. Thats a cumulative stat.

Lets say we had a draft with 10 HoF in their prime. Then had to fill the rest of team out with scrubs.
Whoever got Kobe to carry their team would fill gipped.
Stats hate Kobe because he is 1 dimensional.

Bryant said what wins titles is players geared toward post/paint scoring. Bird, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nowitzki, Lebron, Wade

Those guys are geared toward efficient scoring.

Wow stats agree with Kobe.

People were saying "Kobe is Top 10", "Kobe is Top 10" in what? Thats what a fan boy is. Not specific as to criteria is and always shifting.

Is he top 10 in "clutch gene"? His handles are "tight"?

Kobe can be close to top 10 in longevity but that doesn't take into account guys there were plenty more who dominated the entire game more and didn't play 15+ years or caught injuries.

People can't critically think and say dumb sh*t. Stats don't "hate" Kobe they agree with him.

[tsherkin]

Kobe is the greatest volume shooter of all time.

Fail #1. Jordan was better, clearly. Shot the same or greater volume, turned it over less and scored on higher efficiency with the same or greater scoring output. Their usage rates (post-Shaq for Kobe, to keep it fair) are basically identical and Jordan still comes out on top, while scoring at a similar volume.

So this statement is definitively incorrect.

But Kobe is actually reflected in his stats. Very efficient for his role and volume.

Yeah, in the modern era, his efficiency has been pretty solid. Not lately, but everyone knows he's injured, so it's not a big deal. When he was healthy, he was a lock for 55-57% TS, and that was good.

[Bodhi]

Bryant said what wins titles is players geared toward post/paint scoring. Bird, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nowitzki, Lebron, Wade

Those guys are geared toward efficient scoring.

Wow stats agree with Kobe.

People were saying "Kobe is Top 10", "Kobe is Top 10" in what? Thats what a fan boy is. Not specific as to criteria is and always shifting.

Is he top 10 in "clutch gene"? His handles are "tight"?

Kobe can be close to top 10 in longevity but that doesn't take into account guys there were plenty more who dominated the entire game more and didn't play 15+ years or caught injuries.

People can't critically think and say dumb sh*t. Stats don't "hate" Kobe they agree with him.

For someone who emphasizes critical thinking so strongly you sure have a funny list of players who are more efficient scorers than Kobe. Half of them are either less efficient or about equal to Kobe in efficiency.

[Ruhiel]

Kobe is the greatest volume shooter of all time.

Fail #1. Jordan was better, clearly. Shot the same or greater volume, turned it over less and scored on higher efficiency with the same or greater scoring output. Their usage rates (post-Shaq for Kobe, to keep it fair) are basically identical and Jordan still comes out on top, while scoring at a similar volume.

So this statement is definitively incorrect.

[/quote]

Iirc that post was going from if Kobe was playing off ball.

But I was trying to find a stat he's top 10 in to help the debate.

But Kobe is actually reflected in his stats. Very efficient for his role and volume.

Yeah, in the modern era, his efficiency has been pretty solid. Not lately, but everyone knows he's injured, so it's not a big deal. When he was healthy, he was a lock for 55-57% TS, and that was good.

[EarlTheGoat]

Aw...win shares.

Did I mention in my above post this board's ridiculous obsession with so called "advanced" stats?

I swear most people focus on advanced stats instead of watching games.

We have reached the point of pure insanity.

[Ruhiel]

Bryant said what wins titles is players geared toward post/paint scoring. Bird, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nowitzki, Lebron, Wade

Those guys are geared toward efficient scoring.

Wow stats agree with Kobe.

People were saying "Kobe is Top 10", "Kobe is Top 10" in what? Thats what a fan boy is. Not specific as to criteria is and always shifting.

Is he top 10 in "clutch gene"? His handles are "tight"?

Kobe can be close to top 10 in longevity but that doesn't take into account guys there were plenty more who dominated the entire game more and didn't play 15+ years or caught injuries.

People can't critically think and say dumb sh*t. Stats don't "hate" Kobe they agree with him.

For someone who emphasizes critical thinking so strongly you sure have a funny list of players who are more efficient scorers than Kobe. Half of them are either less efficient or about equal to Kobe in efficiency.

I said those players are more geared towards inside play.

TS%?
Bird, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Nowitzki, Lebron, Wade

Thats a random list of guys I see get easy shots inside. Duncan and Garnett are big men. Check their offensive rebound%. They get the ball back and steal extra possessions they are excused.

That's two. Where's the rest of the "half"?

[Asianiac_24]

Out of that list, I'll give you Jordan and Shaq. Bird's career TS% is only 0.8% higher than Kobe's, and he scored on less volume. Same goes to Magic. Funny how Duncan and Garnett gets a pass because they get offensive rebounds but Kobe don't for carrying the offensive load and scoring on volume that is higher than anyone on that list not named Jordan. Take out Kobe's first few years out of his career than his career TS% average would be, I would guess around 56% which is right on par with Bird, while averaging around 28 ppg.

[ImissJordan]

Out of that list, I'll give you Jordan and Shaq. Bird's career TS% is only 0.8% higher than Kobe's, and he scored on less volume. Same goes to Magic. Funny how Duncan and Garnett gets a pass because they get offensive rebounds but Kobe don't for carrying the offensive load and scoring on volume that is higher than anyone on that list not named Jordan. Take out Kobe's first few years out of his career than his career TS% average would be, I would guess around 56% which is right on par with Bird, while averaging around 28 ppg.

I always wonder what Kobe's career PPG average would have looked like, had he played 2-3 years of college and not had Shaq alongside him for his first eight years.

[Apathy]

Aw...win shares.

Did I mention in my above post this board's ridiculous obsession with so called "advanced" stats?

I swear most people focus on advanced stats instead of watching games.

We have reached the point of pure insanity.

I do watch the games. Kobe makes poor choices on the offensive end all the time. He holds the ball for too long and he usually settles for Js late in the shot clock, where if he misses there's a low chance his team gets the rebound. Or he may get doubled or stonewalled by the D and either 1) force a tough shot or 2) whip it out on the perimeter, leaving his teammates scrambling with the shot clock running low.

He'd be a much better player if he played more like Ray Allen (he should shoot a much better % from 3 than he does; most of it is poor shot selection) off the ball or took it to the hoop more (his FT% rate is fine but it could be godly considering all the calls he gets).

The fact of the matter is Gasol/Bynum are tremendous offensive options and should get more touches, especially Bynum. Odom could also be more of an offensive force; too often his role is standing out on the perimeter shooting bail-out 3s. He's turned into a competent 3-point shooter but he could be so much more if they looked to exploit more mismatches with him.

[Hye4Life]

"He'd be a much better player if he played more like Ray Allen (he should shoot a much better % from 3 than he does; most of it is poor shot selection) off the ball or took it to the hoop more (his FT% rate is fine but it could be godly considering all the calls he gets). "

LOL WOW so he'd be a better player by being primarily a spot up 3 point shooter? LOL Talk about reaching here... If you said Bird or Jordan, then I'd understand, but Ray freakin Allen? LOL

[tsherkin]

Iirc that post was going from if Kobe was playing off ball.

But I was trying to find a stat he's top 10 in to help the debate.

Yeah, but the idea that he's the greatest volume shooter is just completely false and doesn't really help anything, so I just wanted to clarify.

He's certainly one of the best scorers in NBA history and he was never inefficient, per se. Even before the modern era, he was clearly within the tier of elite scorers. Not the upper-tier, per say, not like MJ was at his peak, but very, very good nevertheless. Certainly not #1, though.

[EvanZ]

He isn't in the top 10 of the most valuable scorer in the nba ( goldenstateofmind.com ) .

He ranked 13th there. He also ranks 13th in multi-year RAPM (likely the most accurate +/- statisticaI measure you will find these days). Is this really "hating"? If he had finished 9th in my ratings, I have a feeling you would have said I'm "hating" on him, because he didn't finish top 5. If he finished 5th, you would have said he didn't finish top 3. In previous years, Kobe could well have finished much higher using a similar metric.

There's always someone who thinks someone's the greatest. And everyone who doesn't think so is a "hater". The thing is very few people go around developing stats specifically designed to "hate" on one player, so to call out "the stats" for doing so is quite unfair. If you agree with and value the methodology used in a particular statistical metric, then you should place some value on the rating. If you don't, then don't. It's really that simple. But don't make the mistake (quite common around here) of discounting or rejecting a stat simply because it doesn't give you the result you were looking for. At the very least, try to understand the numbers that go into the stat, and see if you agree with those. In all likelihood, if a stat is way, way off base, it's probably the methodology (i.e. assumptions) that are to blame (not the player).

[Ruhiel]

Out of that list, I'll give you Jordan and Shaq. Bird's career TS% is only 0.8% higher than Kobe's, and he scored on less volume. Same goes to Magic. Funny how Duncan and Garnett gets a pass because they get offensive rebounds but Kobe don't for carrying the offensive load and scoring on volume that is higher than anyone on that list not named Jordan. Take out Kobe's first few years out of his career than his career TS% average would be, I would guess around 56% which is right on par with Bird, while averaging around 28 ppg.

First the less volume thing is funny because Kobe is #1 on Usage% so you can use that to bail you out anywhere.

Wins Shared is cumulative and Bryant was one dimensional on that level. What about Duncan's blocks that led to fast break outlet passes or Lebron's assist%.
There's more to basketball than ppg.

Offensive Wins Shared

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1.   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*   178.92
2.   Wilt Chamberlain*   153.34
3.   Oscar Robertson*   151.99
4.   Michael Jordan*   149.89
5.   John Stockton*   142.77
6.   Karl Malone*   142.21
7.   Reggie Miller   140.36
8.   Jerry West*   124.64
9.   Charles Barkley*   123.30
10.   Moses Malone*   118.61

11.   Shaquille O'Neal   115.35
12.   Dirk Nowitzki   114.75
13.   Artis Gilmore*   114.11
14.   Adrian Dantley*   111.43
15.   Kobe Bryant   111.33

If you want a top scorer take Kobe Bryant. But there's more to controlling the basketball than scoring on 45% shooting.

Defense Wins Shared Career

58. Kobe Bryant 44.93

Kobe is well on his way to top 10 Career Wins Shared, and yes there are seasons in a 60 year old league where players did better believe it or not. So stop baiting about stats "hating".

[Vincent 666]

People were saying "Kobe is Top 10", "Kobe is Top 10" in what? )

His overall basketball career.

To say Kobe is one dimensional is just straight out dumb.

[Ruhiel]

People were saying "Kobe is Top 10", "Kobe is Top 10" in what? )

His overall basketball career.

To say Kobe is one dimensional is just straight out dumb.

Thread title is "Why do the stats hate on Kobe Bryant?". Stats don't "hate on Kobe Bryant" or his career.

[Mamba Venom]

The combination of Kobe's swag and his teammates belief that he is the 2nd coming of MJ leads to:

2 times per regular season game where Kobe bails out/takes a ridiculously difficult shot for fun

But Kobe has 4th quarter play-off mode in which he stops taking those shots.

Kobe's love for the game actually hurts his game in the sense that he will always take a few of those shots because he #1 is team leader and #2 uses those types of plays to destroy his defender's confidence.

I have watched just about ever Laker game sine '98.

[Mamba Venom]

If Kobe were more of a machine (resist the urge to post of BFF Sasha video), and Kobe would stop taking those 2 shots per game, he would be a better basketball player and have better stats.

2 less misses per game at 20 shots per game is a 10% bump in his FG percentage.

I wish he would do that, but at the same time Kobe's supreme belief and passion for schoolyard ball every once in a while make him more fun to watch. Most Laker fans enjoy the entertainment aspect of those shots ... until we lose. Then we want the Mamba Machine. Which we will never get.