Why do the stats hate on Kobe Bryant?

[Dr Aki]

Because Kobe has always been more hype/flash than substance.

You mean because he didn't lead a team to back-to-back titles, or because he didn't win back-to-back scoring titles? Or because he didn't set the record for consecutive threes made? Or because he doesn't hold the record for highest single-game points total scored after 1962?

He isn't an MVP? His Lakers haven't won 57+ games for the last 4 years straight? Actually, 57, 65, 57 and 57. They didn't make three consecutive trips to the Finals and don't have 4 straight division titles?

That's that lack of substance we're talking about, right?

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.

the irony

[ssenbonzakura]

By this title i mean why the fact he is the best doesn't translate on his stats?

Well obviously it should be noted that stats absolutely consider Kobe a Tier 1 superstar, so it's hard to say they hate him.

Why doesn't his game translate to stats better? I would rather "Why does his phenomenal set of skills not help his team quite as much as people think it does?", and to me the answer is pretty clearly: Because he tends to fall in love with stuff that doesn't translate to highest team efficiency. This is due to a combination of factors, but probably the two biggies are: 1) Relative weakness at being able to accurately gauge his own scoring position compared to teammates (Overrates self), 2) A reluctance to go inside like Wade which reduces his impact in the moment but will probably result in him having a significantly better longevity.

The other component to the confusion is the inability of fans to recognize that the ability to play great defense, and actually playing great defense are two different things. Legitimately, Kobe has great defensive talent, but for many years now he's conserved energy on the defensive end in a typical game.This is actually imho his biggest current weakness vs LeBron, who is simply younger with more stamina.

+1

[Gongxi]

The stats don't hate him. Or at least, they don't hate him anymore than they do any other great defensive player. The stats have him up there with the Malones, West, Dr. J, Oscar, KG, etc, right where he actually is. If you think he's better than Bird or Hakeem or Duncan or Shaq or something, of course you'd think they hate him, because they indicate that he's not.

[dhh2h]

Because Kobe has always been more hype/flash than substance.

You mean because he didn't lead a team to back-to-back titles, or because he didn't win back-to-back scoring titles? Or because he didn't set the record for consecutive threes made? Or because he doesn't hold the record for highest single-game points total scored after 1962?

He isn't an MVP? His Lakers haven't won 57+ games for the last 4 years straight? Actually, 57, 65, 57 and 57. They didn't make three consecutive trips to the Finals and don't have 4 straight division titles?

That's that lack of substance we're talking about, right?

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.

Lol I dont know what the 96' Bulls have to do with anything but ok?

[SideshowBob]

Ehh, I'd argue he's been great in regular season clutch stats the past few years as well. He was the leading per minute clutch scorer back in 09 (albeit by a very small margin) on 60%TS, and second in '10 at about 57.8% TS, and back up to first again last year, though his efficiency dropped.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I was thinking about his poor shooting "in the last 24 seconds" when I made that comment, but I typically like to use the last 5 minutes when looking at how well a player performs in pressure situations, so my mistake.

I guess clutch is a fairly subjective factor as well. Just watching games I've heard announcers call performances clutch as early as the third quarter. While some may argue that the only clutch plays that are made are when there's one possession left and the game is on the line. Others still will say that the idea of clutch shouldn't even be considered till the postseason. I mean how good is a guy who makes all the big shots in the regular season, but can't get it done when the games start to really count for something?

[ShabazzMuhammad]

By this title i mean why the fact he is the best doesn't translate on his stats?

Well obviously it should be noted that stats absolutely consider Kobe a Tier 1 superstar, so it's hard to say they hate him.

Why doesn't his game translate to stats better? I would rather "Why does his phenomenal set of skills not help his team quite as much as people think it does?", and to me the answer is pretty clearly: Because he tends to fall in love with stuff that doesn't translate to highest team efficiency. This is due to a combination of factors, but probably the two biggies are: 1) Relative weakness at being able to accurately gauge his own scoring position compared to teammates (Overrates self), 2) A reluctance to go inside like Wade which reduces his impact in the moment but will probably result in him having a significantly better longevity.

The other component to the confusion is the inability of fans to recognize that the ability to play great defense, and actually playing great defense are two different things. Legitimately, Kobe has great defensive talent, but for many years now he's conserved energy on the defensive end in a typical game.This is actually imho his biggest current weakness vs LeBron, who is simply younger with more stamina.

nice +1

[RandomKnight]

Oscar Robertson has a case. Rings no. More of a Mismatch? yes. : )

There is a generally accepted set of criteria that is used to formulate the goat status. How you weight them is what decides placement. In the context of those criteria, some players have achieved too much and peaked too high for you to find ten players above them. Kobe is one of the players. Good as he was, Oscar is definitively not. I can see arguing him in the 9-15 range though. I'd have him twelvish.

There's another criteria that says you take Oscar Robertson facilitating Shaq's Lakers over Kobe + Shaq's Lakers.

You take
"Generally accepted"= popular opinion. Doesn't mean opinion is correct. Just means its popular and leads to sad threads like "Why do Stats hate on Kobe Bryant?"

This isn't ok folks. People's inability to make basic distinctions, and reason just a little, is all but gone. I normally walk away in disgust with this kind of stuff, but tonight I'll take the trouble to point some very basic, obvious things here. I'll start with the second point first.

"Generally accepted criteria" means that there is a common understanding about what defines goat. This is not the same thing as popular opinion. Criteria like rings, accolades, stats... it's common sense that these criteria are understood to be the stuff of GOAT...not freaking popular opinion.

I'm trying to tell you that when you look at those criteria, in the case of eight or so men, it's clear there are not ten players with better accomplishments according to those same criteria than them. Kobe is one of those eight.

And your first point was simply ignoring legitimate standards of achievement for GOAT status and replacing them with hypothetical scenarios. Wow. Please stop and think, and don't just clutter things up with mindless nonsense.

[tsherkin]

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.

Excuse you? Kobe's supporting cast doesn't even match what the Lakers had around Shaq in 2000, let alone the 96 Bulls, the 80s Lakers/Celtics, the 83 Sixers, etc, etc.

[Elden Payton]

Kobe Bryant is for sure one of the greatest players of all the time.
Most of the media and people say he is the best player, he masterizes fundamentals, he is a great shooter, but the stats don't show it.
In example, we say Dirk Nowitzki is one of the best shooters in the game right now and one of the most fundamental sound player, the stats show he is the best mid-range shooter by far and the most valuable scorer in the game.
Kobe isn't in the top 25 of the best mid-range shooters in the nba. He isn't in the top 10 of the most valuable scorer in the nba ( goldenstateofmind.com ) . He isn't top 10 of the most clutch player in nba, but everyone say he is mr. clutch.
We all know he is a great player ( 5 rings , i don't have to make the resume of his career), so why do the stats hate him and not all the other players ?

By this title i mean why the fact he is the best doesn't translate on his stats?

Who says Kobe is the best player of all-time?? That's a crazy statement...

As for the bolded it's quite common knowledge among non Kobe fans that he's not that clutch...As Flynt Flossy's sig says 31% is the league average..

Kobe has 5 rings but only two as the number one option....

Statistically & factually he is nowhere near the best...

[RandomKnight]

Ehh, I'd argue he's been great in regular season clutch stats the past few years as well. He was the leading per minute clutch scorer back in 09 (albeit by a very small margin) on 60%TS, and second in '10 at about 57.8% TS, and back up to first again last year, though his efficiency dropped.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I was thinking about his poor shooting "in the last 24 seconds" when I made that comment, but I typically like to use the last 5 minutes when looking at how well a player performs in pressure situations, so my mistake.

I like this exchange. Two smart guys illuminating things for each other as well as the rest of us.

[italianleather]

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.

Excuse you? Kobe's supporting cast doesn't even match what the Lakers had around Shaq in 2000, let alone the 96 Bulls, the 80s Lakers/Celtics, the 83 Sixers, etc, etc.

Prepare to incur the wrath of ...... jaypo!!!!

[RandomKnight]

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.

Excuse you? Kobe's supporting cast doesn't even match what the Lakers had around Shaq in 2000, let alone the 96 Bulls, the 80s Lakers/Celtics, the 83 Sixers, etc, etc.

Prepare to incur the wrath of ...... jaypo!!!!

I love it when someone brags and beats their chest right before getting their ass handed to them.

[Elden Payton]

By this title i mean why the fact he is the best doesn't translate on his stats?

Well obviously it should be noted that stats absolutely consider Kobe a Tier 1 superstar, so it's hard to say they hate him.

Why doesn't his game translate to stats better? I would rather "Why does his phenomenal set of skills not help his team quite as much as people think it does?", and to me the answer is pretty clearly: Because he tends to fall in love with stuff that doesn't translate to highest team efficiency. This is due to a combination of factors, but probably the two biggies are: 1) Relative weakness at being able to accurately gauge his own scoring position compared to teammates (Overrates self), 2) A reluctance to go inside like Wade which reduces his impact in the moment but will probably result in him having a significantly better longevity.

The other component to the confusion is the inability of fans to recognize that the ability to play great defense, and actually playing great defense are two different things. Legitimately, Kobe has great defensive talent, but for many years now he's conserved energy on the defensive end in a typical game.This is actually imho his biggest current weakness vs LeBron, who is simply younger with more stamina.

nice +1

Great Post.

[Eagle25]

Yeah, they really hate on him with that #1 offensive +/- over the decade, 24 PER average over 15 years, #10 WAR All-Time,10 +200 WS/48 seasons, and seasons of 35/5/5/2/56% TS, 32/6/5/2/58% TS, 30/7/6/2/55% TS, 28/6/5/2/58% TS,29/6/5/2/56% TS, etc. Yeah, they just detest him.

[Ruhiel]

Yeah, they really hate on him with that #1 offensive +/- over the decade, 24 PER average over 15 years, #10 WAR All-Time,10 +200 WS/48 seasons, and seasons of 35/5/5/2/56% TS, 32/6/5/2/58% TS, 30/7/6/2/55% TS, 28/6/5/2/58% TS,29/6/5/2/56% TS, etc. Yeah, they just detest him.

U just gave me dyscalculia.

[Blame Rasho]

This is a silly thread.