RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#441 » by UTJazzFan_Echo1 » Wed Oct 5, 2011 3:05 pm

therealbig3 wrote:^How do you support Malone over Hakeem?

Arguably the greatest PF to play the game (although I have him as 2nd greatest behind Duncan). Scoring and rebounding #'s.

With a slight touch of homerizm :wink:

Honestly its a wash between the two IMO. Both are top 10 all-time players in my book but I had a hard time justifying putting either of them in place of anyone else on my list in the top 10. I had Duncan just above Malone and since you could argue both are the greatest PF's of all-time I decided to keep them together and drop Hakeem down a spot. I couldn't put Hakeem above Duncan and I couldn't put Duncan two spots above Malone.

If you asked me at some other time who out of the two I would put in the top 10 if I could only choose one, I might very well put Hakeem in there over Malone.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#442 » by EarlTheGoat » Wed Oct 5, 2011 3:09 pm

UTJazzFan_Echo1 wrote:I'm giving a vote for Pete Maravich to be in there somewhere.

I couldn't help but redo the top 30 for myself...

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Tim Duncan
10) Karl Malone
11) Hakeem Olajuwon
12) Oscar Robertson
13) John Stockton
14) Scottie Pippen
15) Julius Erving
16) Kevin Garnett
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) Jerry West
19) Moses Malone
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwayne Wade
23) Elgin Baylor
24) Bob Pettit
25) Walt Frazier
26) Jason Kidd
27) Isiah Thomas
28) Patrick Ewing
29) John Havlicek
30) Rick Barry


I love Scottie Pippen, im a complete homer of his, but you just ranked him 14th, ahead of guys like Erving, Garnett, West, Moses, Barkley or Robinson. Arent you pushing it too far?

Again, I understand you are a Jazz fan but Stockton 13rd over all those guys I mentioned is beyond far-fetched, John was never an MVP type caliber player, the rest of the guys you ranked below him are.

Last but not least, not a jab at you but im curious to ask why you ranked Bird ahead of Magic. Their primes are similar but their careers would suggest you to do the opposite.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#443 » by UTJazzFan_Echo1 » Wed Oct 5, 2011 3:23 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:I love Scottie Pippen, im a complete homer of his, but you just ranked him 14th, ahead of guys like Erving, Garnett, West, Moses, Barkley or Robinson. Arent you pushing it too far?

Again, I understand you are a Jazz fan but Stockton 13rd over all those guys I mentioned is beyond far-fetched, John was never an MVP type caliber player, the rest of the guys you ranked below him are.

Last but not least, not a jab at you but im curious to ask why you ranked Bird ahead of Magic. Their primes are similar but their careers would suggest you to do the opposite.

I've always felt that Pippen has been under-rated as a player and in the rankings. I ask myself, who would I rather have on my team... Pippen or X player? So I push him up until I hit a player that I rather have on my team than him. Ya, its a little high for him and I concede that it might be more because I feel he is so often under-rated than because of his actual career but thats where he ended up for me.

It's the same thing with Stockton. I kept pushing him up until I hit a player I rather have on my team than him. IMO, Malone won the league MVP awards but the MVP of the Jazz was always Stockton. I've always felt that Stockton (much like Pippen) has been vastly under-rated. You can't ignore his incredible #'s and efficiency. If he played in todays game and put up the same #'s he was back then, he would for sure be a top MVP candidate. While I can concede that I perhaps put Pippen too high, I won't agree that Stockton is too high. He is a top 15 player of all-time.

As for Magic vs. Bird... its honestly a personal preference. Its a wash and always will be a wash between the two IMO so its not really a big deal who you rank ahead of who between the two. It also was also partially due to the fact that I felt a Kareem/Magic ranking didn't seem to fit as "right" as Magic/Kobe and I wasn't going to put all three together in a row. In other words, I felt Magic ranked closer to Kobe than Kareem.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#444 » by rocopc » Thu Oct 6, 2011 5:22 pm

1 Bill Russell
2 Michael Jordan
3 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4 Larry Bird
5 Magic Johnson
6 Wilt Chamberlain
7 Shaquill Oneal
8 Tim Duncan
9 Hakeem Olajuwon
10 Oscar Robertson
11 Kobe Bryant
12 Jerry West
13 Dr. J Julius Erving
14 Karl Malone
15 Moses Malone
16 Kevin Garnett
17 Bob Pettit
18 Charles Barkley
19 Dirk Nowitzki
20 Elgin Baylor
21 LeBron James
22 David Robinson
23 Isahia Thomas
24 John Havlicek
25 Steve Nash
26 Walt Frazier
27 Dwayne Wade
28 Bob Cousy
29 Patrick Ewing
30 John Stockton
31 Rick Barry
32 Scottie Pippen
33 Kevin McHale
34 Clyde Drexler
35 Willis Reed
36 George Gervin
37 Dominque Wilkins
38 Gary Payton
39 Bill Walton
40 Paul Pierce
41 Dave Cowens
42 Tiny Archibald
43 Jason Kidd
44 Kevin Johnson
45 Bob McAdoo
46 Dwight Howard
47 Artis Gilmore
48 Sidney Moncrief
49 Alvin Hayes
50 George Mikan
51 Pete Maravich
52 Bob Lanier
53 Chris Paul
54 Robert Parrish
55 Alonzo Mourning
56 Dolph Schayes
57 James Worthy
58 Dennis Johnson
59 Tracy McGrady
60 Allen Iverson
61 Alex English
62 Ray Allen
63 Wes Unseld
64 Sam Jones
65 Nate Thurmond
66 Bernard King
67 Dennis Rodmans
68 Walt Bellamy
69 Bill Sharman
70 Reggie Miller
71 Chris Mullin
72 Jerry Lucas
73 Adrian Dantley
74 Earl Monroe
75 Chris Webber
76 Paul Arizin
77 Pau Gasol
78 Chauncey Billups
79 Dikembe Mutombo
80 Anfernee Hardaway
81 Joe Dumars
82 Tim Hardaway
83 Shawn Kemp
84 Lenny Wilkens
85 Emanuel Ginobili
86 Vince Carter
87 David Thompson
88 Billy Cunningham
89 Mitch Richmond
90 Mark Price
91 Marques Johnson
92 Maurice Cheeks
93 Larry Nance
94 Hal Greer
95 Brad Daugherty
96 Glen Rice
97 Dave Debusschere
98 Amare Stoudemire
99 Yao Ming
100 Tom Chambers


Dan Issel, Dave Bing, Paul Westphal, Carmelo Anthony, Tony Parker, Bill Laimbeer, Jeff Hornaceck, Mark Aguirre, JoJo White, Terry Cummings, Buck Williams, Cedric Maxwell, Horace Grant, Jack Sikma and Mark Jackson beetwen others in the considerations... its hard to make a top 100
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#445 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 9, 2011 6:01 pm

A thread I posted on the board:

posting.php?mode=quote&f=64&p=28968511


Doctor MJ wrote:For those interested, we're 49 votes into the 2011 RealGM Top 100 project, and we didn't include George Mikan because there was so much disagreement about him. Nevertheless, I'm sure he'd have been in our top 50, so we essentially have a 50. Some interesting facts:

Players in the NBA's 50 not in our 50, broken down by decade:

50s
Paul Arizin
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman

60s
Hal Greer
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Nate Thurmond
Lenny Wilkens

70s
Tiny Archibald
Dave Bing
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Pete Maravich
Earl Monroe
Wes Unseld

80s
Robert Parish
James Worthy

Players in our 50, not in the NBA's 50, broken down by decade:

70s
Artis Gilmore

80s
Dominique Wilkins

90s
Gary Payton
Reggie Miller
Alonzo Mourning

00s
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Paul Pierce
Dwight Howard
Allen Iverson

Number of players in our 50 by primary decade of play:

50s - 3
60s - 6
70s - 10
80s - 6
90s - 12
00s - 13

Number of players in our 50 by position typically identified

PG - 9
SG - 9
SF - 9
PF - 8
C - 15
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#446 » by penbeast0 » Sun Oct 9, 2011 8:05 pm

If you are pegging the decades right, we sure aren't ignoring the modern players and we are slighting the decade of Bird and Magic which is a bit of a shock (would have guessed we'd slight the 70s, not the 80s).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#447 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 9, 2011 8:31 pm

penbeast0 wrote:If you are pegging the decades right, we sure aren't ignoring the modern players and we are slighting the decade of Bird and Magic which is a bit of a shock (would have guessed we'd slight the 70s, not the 80s).


Well consider the 1984 draft. A testament to the 80s right? But the 4 superstars in the draft actually each did more in the 90s than the 80s. We didn't slight the 80s there, it's just a funny way the data got bucketed.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#448 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Oct 9, 2011 9:08 pm

We were behind on links

45) Dave Cowens
46) Allen Iverson
47) Bill Walton
48) Alonzo Mourning
49) Elvin Hayes
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#449 » by Laimbeer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:03 am

penbeast0 wrote:If you are pegging the decades right, we sure aren't ignoring the modern players and we are slighting the decade of Bird and Magic which is a bit of a shock (would have guessed we'd slight the 70s, not the 80s).


Huh? The 70's missing player count is 7 to 1, the 80s only 2 to 1.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#450 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:46 pm

I did a write-up recapping my personal top 50 if anyone's interested: http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/10/14 ... standards/
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#451 » by Laimbeer » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:58 pm

Can we update the list please?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#452 » by Sinant » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:49 am

Glad to see RayRay finally on the board.

You guys are doing great work, really enjoying reading the threads. Keep it up.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#453 » by EarlTheGoat » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:01 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:I did a write-up recapping my personal top 50 if anyone's interested: http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/10/14 ... standards/


I took the time to read it entirely. Overall its a good ranking, and I enjoyed the read, but theres some things I disagreed with and that I would like to debate with you. So, I will start quoting segments and paragraphs from your article and give reasons to why I disagree. Lets start:

Nate Thurmond is usually seen as the prehistoric Dikembo Mutumbo type defensively strong, offensively questionable center, but Bill Russell dwarfs his impact. Both players cannot be a Mutumbo. If Thurmond was that good defensively and couldn’t elevate his teams half as much as Bill, it’s reasonable to say Russell perhaps was just in his own galaxy of defensive impact.


I agree that Bill Russell is probably the best defender ever, and that his psychological approach to the game was incredible, but lets be fair here. Nate Thurmond never got close to having the talent around him that Bill Russell had. In that aspect, Russell is one of the luckiest players of all time, I mean he played along hall-of-famers and top-50 all-time material players like: Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek...etc etc. Few players throughout the history of the game have had the luxury of playing around such talent.

The main problem I have with Russell is that, unlike the rest of the players in the top-10/top-15 rankings, he could only impact the game on one side of the floor, and he was very very limited on the other one. True that Magic and Bird werent great defensively, but they brought more to the the table than Bill did offensively. And ive always thought the hability to excell on offense is more valuable than the hability to excell on defense.

For this reason, I cant rank Bill Russell in the top-3, I think people overrate him throughout the years, the myth and the legend, and they dont judge the player, but judge the legacy. I have him currently ranked at the 4th position, and honestly, after years of thinking it, thats the most I could get from him.

My top 3 currently looks like this: 1.Jordan, 2.Kareem, 3.Magic


The part that may stick out here other than Wilt not appearing (I’ll get to that in the next section) is Tim Duncan beating both Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. Tim Duncan, really? The truth is, when I sat down and looked at it, Duncan’s playoff consistency came off as absolutely incredible. The guy virtually never puts up a poor statistical playoff game, and he’s someone who’s defensive impact should allow him to have more consistent impact in the playoffs anyways. Magic and Larry are amazing performers, but have a few more blemishes in playoff consistency. True the common logic for Magic and Larry over Duncan is they’re just more spectacular, but since they are offensive impact players and Duncan is a legendary defense/rebounding player, they need that to make up that gap. When I looked at the success of the Spurs and the players Duncan had, it’s hard for me to make any argument that his impact wasn’t as high – advanced statistics also say Duncan is as strong as them.


I love Tim Duncan, one of my favourite players of all-time, but I cant rank him ahead of Magic. He probably has a case over Larry Bird, but even that is very debatable.

True Timmy D was a 2-way-player and that his all-around game, leadership and consistency was elite, but he doesnt have the impressive career Magic holds. Magic Johnson played in the NBA Finals 9 times, thats a crazy numer. He won 5 of them. He completely dominated the 80s decade, if he had won the 9 Finals he played in people would probably be talking of him as the best player ever, or at least he would have a very strong argument/debate against Jordan. Its amazing the consistency and level of greatness he maintained since he entered the league until he retired. And I think his team and his system was affected more by Magic than those of the Spurs by Duncan. Not to mention the 00s Spurs didnt really play against all-time or very talented teams in the Finals, the only competitive team they really faced were the 2005 Pistons. Magic had to play against the almighty 76ers, against the 80s Celtics, against the Bad Boys Pistons, 90s Bulls...etc. Its not even close.

So, basicly, my personal ranking would continue: 4. Russell, 5. Bird, 6. Duncan, 7. Shaq, 8. Wilt.

I agree with everything you said about Wilt Chamberlain btw.

For the rest of the marvellous players, Kevin Garnett is the one usually not listed that high. With the advent of Adjusted Plus/Minus stats where he crushes the field in the 2000s decade and his dominant impact since he came to Boston – I believe he just caught a short stick with caliber of teams and otherwise should be considered top 10 for the same reasons Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon are. They are dominant defensive anchors with exceptional offensive games and having that combination is exceedingly rare and easier to build around than a Bryant or West where they dominant to a greater extent offensively, but not enough to make up for Garnett’s massive defensive impact. Bryant, West, Erving and Oscar all have fantastic all around careers as franchise players, they all win rings, and can all be argued as the 2nd or 3rd best players at their positions ever.


I appreciate your love for KG, but i think Kobe rightfully deserves a spot in the top-10. He has longevity over KG, won more titles as the man, more finals appearances...etc etc. But again, I feel this debate has been had a lot of times, so...from the 10th spot to the 11th there really isnt much of a difference.

My top would finish like this: 9. Olajuwon and 10. Kobe

--------------------------

Im only debating the top-10 as of now, later I would continue with my opinion on the rest of your ranking.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#454 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:53 am

EarlTheGoat wrote:I agree that Bill Russell is probably the best defender ever, and that his psychological approach to the game was incredible, but lets be fair here. Nate Thurmond never got close to having the talent around him that Bill Russell had. In that aspect, Russell is one of the luckiest players of all time, I mean he played along hall-of-famers and top-50 all-time material players like: Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek...etc etc. Few players throughout the history of the game have had the luxury of playing around such talent.

The main problem I have with Russell is that, unlike the rest of the players in the top-10/top-15 rankings, he could only impact the game on one side of the floor, and he was very very limited on the other one. True that Magic and Bird werent great defensively, but they brought more to the the table than Bill did offensively. And ive always thought the hability to excell on offense is more valuable than the hability to excell on defense.

For this reason, I cant rank Bill Russell in the top-3, I think people overrate him throughout the years, the myth and the legend, and they dont judge the player, but judge the legacy. I have him currently ranked at the 4th position, and honestly, after years of thinking it, thats the most I could get from him.


You should really read in detail the arguments from our projects relating to Russell. Not that you'll necessarily agree, but your fear that people are going based on a legacy myth is unfounded. Go to any site that has less knowledgeable posters and you're guaranteed to find Russell ranked much lower, not higher. Russell's stock has risen on these boards over time with research.

The gist of it is this: In '60s era basketball, the funny thing most people don't realize is that the gap between good & bad offense was pretty small compared to the gap between good & bad defense. Oscar's Royals typically had the best offense in the league (by points scored per possessions), but they often didn't go anywhere at all because they weren't good on defense. So when people look at Russell compared to other superstars of his day and think "He couldn't have possibly been as good as them, they were so much better on offense.", they have it exactly backwards. All those huge volume scoring numbers weren't actually accomplishing much at all, and the only reason there should be any debate about who was the best player of the 60s is because when Wilt was truly focused while having a great coach, he had defensive impact that surpassed his volume scoring impact.

But even saying "Big gap between good & bad defense" does not make clear exactly what we're talking about. iirc, in '63-64, arguably Wilt's best defensive year, there were the Celtics, the Warriors, and then everyone else. The gap between the #1 Celtics and the #3 team on defense dwarfed the gap between #1 best & #1 worst offenses, which was why the Celtics won the title yet again. You see they had the worst offense in the league, and it didn't even matter.

It is worth talking about how Russell would translate to today because I don't think it's possible to have a player dominate today like he did back then, but it should also be kept in mind: Arguably the two best defenders we've seen in the past couple generations, Hakeem, and KG, are both built like Russell. So there's every reason to think Russell still has an ideal defensive build for the modern game, plus ridiculous anticipation and timing, and a BBIQ rivaled only by Walton among big men.

As far as the luck of Russell having great teammates, it's a bit of a chicken & egg thing. Did he win 11 titles because he was lucky to get great teammate after great teammate, or did all of his teammates just get celebrated because they won 11 titles? I'm not going to say he didn't have some good teammates, but Cousy & Jones are known for their offense, and again this was a team winning with defense. Even Hondo, though known for his defense, has people say "Russell was lucky" because they see Hondo putting up big numbers in the playoffs in Russell's last few years. However, those big numbers were at terrible percentage on a team that was essentially ineffective on offense. When a team is ineffective on offense, there's really no danger that they are going to become supermega-ineffective without their inefficient volume scorer. Teams can only get so bad on offense before randomness starts making it very hard to get any worse.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#455 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:48 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:I agree that Bill Russell is probably the best defender ever, and that his psychological approach to the game was incredible, but lets be fair here. Nate Thurmond never got close to having the talent around him that Bill Russell had. In that aspect, Russell is one of the luckiest players of all time, I mean he played along hall-of-famers and top-50 all-time material players like: Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek...etc etc. Few players throughout the history of the game have had the luxury of playing around such talent.


Thurmond had some talent. He played with Rick Barry pre ABA (66, 67) and post ABA (73, 74) with some other players along the way like Guy Rodgers, Attles, Meschery and then Cazzie Russell, Jeff Mullins. I feel very, very certain saying that Russell would kick some ass if he played with those teams - as Dr MJ pointed out, Russell's teams rarely were above average offensively - the gap between them and Thurmond's teams is almost all defense, which is their terrain.

The main problem I have with Russell is that, unlike the rest of the players in the top-10/top-15 rankings, he could only impact the game on one side of the floor, and he was very very limited on the other one. True that Magic and Bird werent great defensively, but they brought more to the the table than Bill did offensively. And ive always thought the hability to excell on offense is more valuable than the hability to excell on defense.


I'm the opposite, I think Bill had more offensive impact than Bird and Magic did defensively. Russell was a GOAT offensive rebounder, set screens wonderfully, scored at an above average percentage for his time at a reasonable 18ppg type rate, was both a high post passer and fastbreak starter and got as far as leading his team in assists at one point, etc. I don't think Bird and Magic help much at all on the defensive end expect for rebounding, As for excel on offense > excel on defense. I think this is generally true, except for Russell where his impact appears to defense as Magic's was to offense if not greater - it appears he elevated his team on one end as much as any player has to one end
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#456 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:52 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:
EarlTheGoat wrote:I agree that Bill Russell is probably the best defender ever, and that his psychological approach to the game was incredible, but lets be fair here. Nate Thurmond never got close to having the talent around him that Bill Russell had. In that aspect, Russell is one of the luckiest players of all time, I mean he played along hall-of-famers and top-50 all-time material players like: Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek...etc etc. Few players throughout the history of the game have had the luxury of playing around such talent.


Thurmond had some talent. He played with Rick Barry pre ABA (66, 67) and post ABA (73, 74) with some other players along the way like Guy Rodgers, Attles, Meschery and then Cazzie Russell, Jeff Mullins. I feel very, very certain saying that Russell would kick some ass if he played with those teams - as Dr MJ pointed out, Russell's teams rarely were above average offensively - the gap between them and Thurmond's teams is almost all defense, which is their terrain.



Warriors are young ‘Celtics’

There is something incongruous about this year’s pro basketball playoff finals between the Philadelphia 76ers and the San Francisco Warriors. It is almost as though the 76ers are playing the Celtics all over again, only against younger legs.

The Warriors are cut from the same fast-break mold as Boston, are coached by ex-Celtic great Bill Sharman, and are laced together with Red Auerbach plays. There may even be a few people around right now who actually prefer the copy to the original.

“There is more than a similarity to the way Boston and San Francisco play basketball,” said Wilt Chamberlain of the 76ers. “There is a definite pattern. I liken San Francisco center Nate Thurmond to Bill Russell and Rick Barry to Sam Jones. The only thing Sharman doesn’t have is a John Havlicek to bring in off the bench.”

Trade brings aid

Barry is a forward and Jones a guard. But Chamberlain’s comparison was made on the basis of shooting ability, not position.

Where Wilt might be challenged is on his statement concerning Havlicek. San Francisco does have a sixth man who can break open a game in Jeff Mullins, a 12.9 scorer during the regular season.



Warriors next NBA dynasty?

“Right now we are the best team in pro basketball,” said Coach Alex Hannum of the Philadelphia 76ers.

Hannum made this statement Tuesday night, approximately five minutes after Philadelphia eliminated Boston from the Eastern Division playoffs, 140-116.

“But if any team in the National Basketball Association has a chance to build a dynasty, it’s San Francisco.” Hannum continued. “We’re stronger than the Warriors for the time being because Wilt Chamberlain and Hal Greer are still in their early 30’s.

“Nevertheless, San Francisco has the best young talent in the league. They have the big rebounder in Nate Thurmond and the big scorer in Rick Barry and they are patterned after the Celtics. The Warriors have a much better chance of dominating this league for the next 10 years than the 76ers do.


EarlTheGoat wrote:The main problem I have with Russell is that, unlike the rest of the players in the top-10/top-15 rankings, he could only impact the game on one side of the floor, and he was very very limited on the other one. True that Magic and Bird werent great defensively, but they brought more to the the table than Bill did offensively. And ive always thought the hability to excell on offense is more valuable than the hability to excell on defense.


Well, you already have an inherent bias for offense over defense, which is why Magic and Bird get a pass for “not being great defensively,” but since you believe Russell didn’t do enough on offense, then perceived “one-sidedness” suddenly matters where it doesn’t with Magic and Bird.

EarlTheGoat wrote:For this reason, I cant rank Bill Russell in the top-3, I think people overrate him throughout the years, the myth and the legend, and they dont judge the player, but judge the legacy.


Based on your preconceived notion. I am confident that if I chose a random year (say, 1960) and asked you to tell me something about Russell that season, that you couldn’t do it. Whereas I am also confident that you could do it with no problem for Jordan, Kobe, or any other current star if I chose a random year and asked you what they did. People who make statements such as this don’t even possess the prerequisite knowledge for the statement to even be informed.

EarlTheGoat wrote:I love Tim Duncan, one of my favourite players of all-time, but I cant rank him ahead of Magic. He probably has a case over Larry Bird, but even that is very debatable.

True Timmy D was a 2-way-player and that his all-around game, leadership and consistency was elite, but he doesnt have the impressive career Magic holds.


I find the lack of consistency interesting (not just you specifically, but people in general). People who talk about Russell say he only impacted one end of the floor, yet aren’t consistent and say Duncan > Magic and Bird, since Duncan impacted both ends of the floor (which is supposedly important), but suddenly impact on both ends of the floor no longer matters when compared to a player who is perceived to be better offensively. Then offense > the 2-way game. Which demonstrates that that wasn't truly the issue to begin with.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#457 » by EarlTheGoat » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:15 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
EarlTheGoat wrote:I agree that Bill Russell is probably the best defender ever, and that his psychological approach to the game was incredible, but lets be fair here. Nate Thurmond never got close to having the talent around him that Bill Russell had. In that aspect, Russell is one of the luckiest players of all time, I mean he played along hall-of-famers and top-50 all-time material players like: Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek...etc etc. Few players throughout the history of the game have had the luxury of playing around such talent.

The main problem I have with Russell is that, unlike the rest of the players in the top-10/top-15 rankings, he could only impact the game on one side of the floor, and he was very very limited on the other one. True that Magic and Bird werent great defensively, but they brought more to the the table than Bill did offensively. And ive always thought the hability to excell on offense is more valuable than the hability to excell on defense.

For this reason, I cant rank Bill Russell in the top-3, I think people overrate him throughout the years, the myth and the legend, and they dont judge the player, but judge the legacy. I have him currently ranked at the 4th position, and honestly, after years of thinking it, thats the most I could get from him.


You should really read in detail the arguments from our projects relating to Russell. Not that you'll necessarily agree, but your fear that people are going based on a legacy myth is unfounded. Go to any site that has less knowledgeable posters and you're guaranteed to find Russell ranked much lower, not higher. Russell's stock has risen on these boards over time with research.

The gist of it is this: In '60s era basketball, the funny thing most people don't realize is that the gap between good & bad offense was pretty small compared to the gap between good & bad defense. Oscar's Royals typically had the best offense in the league (by points scored per possessions), but they often didn't go anywhere at all because they weren't good on defense. So when people look at Russell compared to other superstars of his day and think "He couldn't have possibly been as good as them, they were so much better on offense.", they have it exactly backwards. All those huge volume scoring numbers weren't actually accomplishing much at all, and the only reason there should be any debate about who was the best player of the 60s is because when Wilt was truly focused while having a great coach, he had defensive impact that surpassed his volume scoring impact.

But even saying "Big gap between good & bad defense" does not make clear exactly what we're talking about. iirc, in '63-64, arguably Wilt's best defensive year, there were the Celtics, the Warriors, and then everyone else. The gap between the #1 Celtics and the #3 team on defense dwarfed the gap between #1 best & #1 worst offenses, which was why the Celtics won the title yet again. You see they had the worst offense in the league, and it didn't even matter.

It is worth talking about how Russell would translate to today because I don't think it's possible to have a player dominate today like he did back then, but it should also be kept in mind: Arguably the two best defenders we've seen in the past couple generations, Hakeem, and KG, are both built like Russell. So there's every reason to think Russell still has an ideal defensive build for the modern game, plus ridiculous anticipation and timing, and a BBIQ rivaled only by Walton among big men.

As far as the luck of Russell having great teammates, it's a bit of a chicken & egg thing. Did he win 11 titles because he was lucky to get great teammate after great teammate, or did all of his teammates just get celebrated because they won 11 titles? I'm not going to say he didn't have some good teammates, but Cousy & Jones are known for their offense, and again this was a team winning with defense. Even Hondo, though known for his defense, has people say "Russell was lucky" because they see Hondo putting up big numbers in the playoffs in Russell's last few years. However, those big numbers were at terrible percentage on a team that was essentially ineffective on offense. When a team is ineffective on offense, there's really no danger that they are going to become supermega-ineffective without their inefficient volume scorer. Teams can only get so bad on offense before randomness starts making it very hard to get any worse.


Pretty nice post. I can live with this.

I might have to reconsider ranking Russell a bit ahead, perhaps top-3, although im never going to call him the GOAT.

Dr Mufasa wrote:Thurmond had some talent. He played with Rick Barry pre ABA (66, 67) and post ABA (73, 74) with some other players along the way like Guy Rodgers, Attles, Meschery and then Cazzie Russell, Jeff Mullins. I feel very, very certain saying that Russell would kick some ass if he played with those teams - as Dr MJ pointed out, Russell's teams rarely were above average offensively - the gap between them and Thurmond's teams is almost all defense, which is their terrain.


Ive read a bit about those players, and they were good. Although I dont think that cast was as good as the Cousy, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Heinshon...etc.

But I agree with you that Bill Russell would have probably taken that team further.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#458 » by therealbig3 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:47 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:I find the lack of consistency interesting (not just you specifically, but people in general). People who talk about Russell say he only impacted one end of the floor, yet aren’t consistent and say Duncan > Magic and Bird, since Duncan impacted both ends of the floor (which is supposedly important), but suddenly impact on both ends of the floor no longer matters when compared to a player who is perceived to be better offensively. Then offense > the 2-way game. Which demonstrates that that wasn't truly the issue to begin with.


I think the reason for that is that people can't really accept that an elite defender can impact the game as much as an elite offensive player. So to most people, they don't see Duncan in the same ballpark as an offensive player to Magic and Bird, and while they are clearly at a disadvantage defensively, most people think that doesn't do enough for Duncan to make up the offensive difference. So the rationale seems to be that an elite offensive player can impact a game more than an elite defensive player who also happens to be a very good, but not elite, offensive player. I tend to agree with this for the most part, because I do think that in general, individual offense is more important than individual defense.

However, I also think that Russell was the exception to that, and his defensive impact was just as big as an elite offensive player's impact.

BTW, I say "most people", because I actually disagree with Bird>Duncan, I have him sandwiched in between Magic and Bird, because I don't think Bird and Magic are as close as people think they are. I think Magic was clearly a bit better offensively.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#459 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:34 am

EarlTheGoat wrote:Pretty nice post. I can live with this.

I might have to reconsider ranking Russell a bit ahead, perhaps top-3, although im never going to call him the GOAT.


Well of course not, that's Manigault, no? :wink:

Appreciate your open attitude though. fwiw, while Russell is my GOAT for career, I'd probably rank him behind Jordan, Shaq, and Wilt for peak.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#460 » by EarlTheGoat » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:53 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
EarlTheGoat wrote:Pretty nice post. I can live with this.

I might have to reconsider ranking Russell a bit ahead, perhaps top-3, although im never going to call him the GOAT.


Well of course not, that's Manigault, no? :wink:

Appreciate your open attitude though. fwiw, while Russell is my GOAT for career, I'd probably rank him behind Jordan, Shaq, and Wilt for peak.


:lol:

Manigault will always be my personal GOAT. :D

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