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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#121 » by DreamTeam09 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:57 am

N.B.A. officials reported a $300 million loss last season. Reducing the players’ share to 50 percent would save about $280 million in the first year of a new labor deal. From there, league officials believe they would return to profitability with modest revenue growth in future seasons. Every percentage point paid to players beyond 50 makes the task that much harder. The league’s new revenue-sharing plan is also dependent upon erasing the deficit.

On a number of smaller items, tentative agreements were reached this week that:

* There will be a one-time “amnesty” provision that will allow each team to waive a player (with pay) without his salary counting against the salary cap.

* There will be a “stretch” exception, available every year, allowing teams to waive players and stretch out their remaining salary over a number of seasons, thus reducing the annual salary-cap hit.

* The midlevel exception will be set around $5 million, a decrease of $800,000, but more than double what the owners were seeking.

The parties are still wrangling over contract length and annual raises attached to the exception.

Assuming the revenue split can be resolved, the parties will still have to tackle the luxury-tax system, which is just as thorny. But first they have to start talking again.


http://www.hoopsworld.com/the-nba-proposed-a-stretch-exception/

Looks like they should be able to solve the remaiming issues and have a season.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#122 » by ronleroy » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:19 am

how did you get anything positive from that? that's been reported for a while now, its the luxury tax and bri split that is the deal breaker atm, nothing new being reported.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#123 » by Kevin Willis » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:47 am

All I know is that if they don't resolve the CBA issue they will lose people. I even watch more hockey now, which I haven't in years. Premiership, Rugby. Basketball will lose the casual fan if it hasn't already.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#124 » by BorisDK1 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:10 am

floppymoose wrote:Boris, if you really think interest on team purchase price should come out of the players BRI share, then you don't understand nearly as much as you think you do.

Please explain and justify.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#125 » by Indeed » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Kevin Willis wrote:All I know is that if they don't resolve the CBA issue they will lose people. I even watch more hockey now, which I haven't in years. Premiership, Rugby. Basketball will lose the casual fan if it hasn't already.


I doubted it. As a long term plan, they can recover in 4 years, which is good enough for the owners. Also, not a lot of entertainment program can replace NBA. This is way the owners are willing to wait, and we could still have a 82 games since Stern knows the owners might want to drag the negotiation.

Anyway, the system didn't change, and the negotiation is initiated by money issue instead of a parity system, which is kind of disappointed to me. The parity system that is being promoted, is just a marketing promotion to get buy in from the fans, we have yet to address super teams (New York may becomes another one?).
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#126 » by ronleroy » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:17 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:All I know is that if they don't resolve the CBA issue they will lose people. I even watch more hockey now, which I haven't in years. Premiership, Rugby. Basketball will lose the casual fan if it hasn't already.


my dad was a casual fan, he didn't stop watching cause of the strike, he stop watching cause the raps suck every year since carter left. Best way to bring back fans is make the league more competitive.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#127 » by MEDIC » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:01 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:All I know is that if they don't resolve the CBA issue they will lose people. I even watch more hockey now, which I haven't in years. Premiership, Rugby. Basketball will lose the casual fan if it hasn't already.


Agreed.

I've watched every Leaf game this season & actually enjoyed it.......& I haven't watched a full Leaf game in like 15 years. Part of the reason it's been a breath of fresh air is not having to deal with league politics. The NHL is a league that not only embraces Toronto, but respects it as a sports city & franchise.

It feels good not having to hear about star players that don't want to play here, not hearing about how the team should be contracted, no bitching & complaining about having to cross the border, not hearing about labour disputes & unfair market advantages. All of this BS gets tiresome because it has nothing to do with the game.

It's a very slippery slope for the Raptors specifically. The Leafs are actually winning this season & are looking to be headed to the playoffs with a young exciting team (exactly where the Raptors hoped they would be).

Successful young/ exciting Leafs squad vs. terrible Raptors squad in a lockout.

Very bad situation for the Raptors.

It wouldn't be the first time I stopped supporting a league/ team. My first passion was baseball before the strike/ lockout, then it was hockey during the Gilmore years (then I got sick of the heartless, soft Sundin lead team), then it was NCAA basketball before all of the players started leaving early, then it was NBA after Toronto got a team.......you never know......it might be that time again if they don't fix the competitiveness/ parity issue throughout the league.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#128 » by Calderon » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:16 pm

The NBA deserves to lose fans. Basketball was just starting to establish itself as a staple in American sports and was developing a place right next to football and baseball and now the owners and players can't think of anything but how much more money they can pocket. The owners obviously only care about their interests, and the players clearly only care about their interests, so where does the caring for the fans come in? Never mind that we're in Toronto where the only basketball we've ever been a part of has been absolutely brutal. The fact that Basketball isn't even close to hockey here just makes it that much tougher to be a fan, and now the NBA expects us to sit around while they argue over their millions? The NBA has really crossed the point of no return in terms of disrespecting it's fans.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#129 » by knickerbocker2k2 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:39 pm

BorisDK1 wrote:
floppymoose wrote:Boris, if you really think interest on team purchase price should come out of the players BRI share, then you don't understand nearly as much as you think you do.

Please explain and justify.


For one, players don't see penny of purchase/sale of franchises. If players have no stake in purchase/sale of franchises, why should that be in factor.

Secondly it makes no sense to include cost of franchise as way of caging the health of league. What makes sense is including the normal business operations. Lets use this example

-Company distributes product. They have agreement with supplier that they will receive 57% of purchase price (this is players). It costs the company 55% to market/sell the product, thus leaving them 2% return. Owner of company sells to someone else. However the new owner doesn't buy on cash but on credit. All of sudden in addition to the 55% cost it sell the product, there is an additional 2% that is from the cost of buying company (debt servicing, interest, depreciation) and all of sudden the new owner is not making money. However this is was entirely his fault since they knew the cost structure of the product they were buying into.

Now do you see why players are not sympathetic when owners come back and cry poverty? The problem is not rising costs in the operation of the league but something totally out of players hand. As supplier they should only concerned with items that directly affect the purchase of their product.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#130 » by floppymoose » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:05 pm

Another way to think about this is how it affects team value. Ownership debt affects team value not at all. If I owe $50K on a $200K house, it's still worth $200K and will sell for that.

But a more favorable BRI split for the owners affects team value directly. It goes straight to the bottom line for every team and makes them all more valuable.

More finance and accounting classes are in order for anyone who thinks the players should be paying for owner purchase debt.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#131 » by NH » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:29 pm

Something is weird... why hasn`t the owners force Stern to cancel more games when talks broke down; usually Stern is very good at making his promised come true and making the players pay. It seems like the Owners really want to make the players feel the pain with lost income, but Stern has been quiet.. is he that ill.. now we have reports there is still a schedule for a 82 game season. Are talks being held in secretÉ
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#132 » by youreachiteach » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:33 am

If you're going to insist that the players are basically part owners because they don't "directly" contribute to some losses than the players have to give on the percentage of BRI.

They should be at 50/50 in lieu of a percentage of the sale of the franchise (not a lot because they didn't, you know, pay for it in the first place). And, to indeed's point, it's obvious only players within the existing CBA (the new one) would be able to avail of this opportunity.

What you are now suggesting is a true partnership.

However, I suppose then that the players should also start paying a percentage of the rental costs, upkeep, employee salaries of the arenas, etc. But I bet the players won't "see" it that way.

The thing is, I really believe this is an ancillary and frankly, naive argument. There are things as an employee I never have any control of (up to and not limited to) government regulation, taxation, market forces etc. And yet, my employer must take all of these things into consideration when he pays me. Why should NBA players be any different. Why do they get to decide which "non-affective" parts of the owner's losses count? As far as the owners are concerned, they DO count (and were done by a CPA). So pretending they have nothing to do with you and putting your head in the sand does nothing for negotiation.

And frankly, since as an owner you are the individual who actually paid for the the team and the building and everything else, I'm betting they don't really consider the players owners. They are employees, not owners.

The truth is, they have to negotiate in a way that gets them paid fairly and regularly as well as be guaranteed. Anything beyond that is not their providence. Period.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#133 » by ranger001 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:41 am

floppymoose wrote:Another way to think about this is how it affects team value. Ownership debt affects team value not at all. If I owe $50K on a $200K house, it's still worth $200K and will sell for that.

But a more favorable BRI split for the owners affects team value directly. It goes straight to the bottom line for every team and makes them all more valuable.

More finance and accounting classes are in order for anyone who thinks the players should be paying for owner purchase debt.

Nonsense. The players are employees, if the owners of the company want to cut salaries to pay interest on debt they are perfectly entitled to do that. If your employer decided not to give you a raise because they got into debt they are at liberty to do so.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#134 » by S.W.A.N » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:43 am

NH wrote:Something is weird... why hasn`t the owners force Stern to cancel more games when talks broke down; usually Stern is very good at making his promised come true and making the players pay. It seems like the Owners really want to make the players feel the pain with lost income, but Stern has been quiet.. is he that ill.. now we have reports there is still a schedule for a 82 game season. Are talks being held in secretÉ



Expect an announcement monday... NBA doesn't want to cancel any more games than necessary, as they will try add as many games to back end of schedule and shorten training camps/pre-season as much as possible to get a full season or as close to it as they can if a deal comes sooner than expected.

Owners want players to think they losing more games (more salary) applying more pressure to sign an owner friendly deal, then the owners can 'magically' schedule extra games to fill out season and profits.Its a dangerous game, but since they make the schedule they can keep it hidden as long as they want.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#135 » by Ponchos » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:49 am

The "they are employee's" justification is so stupid. Mostly because they're not. The players are a union.

The owners have CHOSEN to deal with the union. If owners wanted to get rid of the union they are completely in their rights to fire all the players and find replacements. The owners have voluntarily given up their right to unilaterally impose ANYTHING on the players.

As a result of the owners choice, the union and the owners are well within their rights to bargain for whatever they want.

Any analogies to support owners that do not include an owner/union dynamic are completely irrelevant and moronic.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#136 » by youreachiteach » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:54 am

Plenty of employees are unionized--but I hate to break it to you, they are still employees.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#137 » by youreachiteach » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:58 am

The purpose of unions is to provide the best possible opportunity for salaries/benefits for all members in agreement with ownership.

That's all.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#138 » by Ponchos » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:00 am

youreachiteach wrote:Plenty of employees are unionized--but I hate to break it to you, they are still employees.


The terms are not equal. A unionized employee and a non-unionized employee are completely different things with completely different LEGAL rights and obligations.

To use the terms interchangeably as both being "employees" and thus the same thing is incorrect.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#139 » by Ponchos » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:01 am

youreachiteach wrote:The purpose of unions is to provide the best possible opportunity for salaries/benefits for all members in agreement with ownership.

That's all.


True. Also, irrelevant to my point.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#140 » by youreachiteach » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:05 am

Ponchos wrote:
youreachiteach wrote:Plenty of employees are unionized--but I hate to break it to you, they are still employees.


The terms are not equal. A unionized employee and a non-unionized employee are completely different things with completely different LEGAL rights and obligations.

To use the terms interchangeably as both being "employees" and thus the same thing is incorrect.


Yes, they get BETTER salaries and benefits (as it is a powerplay designed by employees to put pressure on management to settle disputes before they mushroom)

I am part of union and worked at the largest corporation in Korea where i saw legal documentation as to the "obligations" they are required to adhere to. Not much different. There are no "safety" regulation issues in playing basketball (see insurance).

All it means is that there are better opportunities and benefits. Which legal right allows employees in a union to decide on the financials of the owners?
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