Week 8: Non-Packers

[Newz]

I love your theories.

First you tell us Jermichael isn't elite because of his previous stats. Then you say Cam is elite or going to be elite, and when twirly brings up stats, you say "look at him play."

Then we talk about AP and how he has driven the team to great records in the past, has great stats, etc. and their record is your arguments. What about Marshall Faulk, etc.?

1. Is Jermichael Finley elite? 47 yards a game? 4 TDs through 7 games? 13.4 YPC? He hasn't put up elite production. I also said, MULTIPLE TIMES, that he is an elite talent. But I did not consider him an elite player because he could not stay on the field.

Now he is on the field and he hasn't been elite at all. Go figure.

2. I said I believe Cam is going to be elite, not that he is elite. Also, Cam's stats (for a rookie) are incredible.

3. RB has become less valuable as the NFL becomes more and more of a passing league. It's like people think Emmitt Smith is a top 10 RB ever, where as I think there are a lot better guys than him around. I think most of his success comes from his dominant offensive line, just like most Arian Fosters does.

He said "imagine the Vikings without AP". So I said they are 2-6. How much worse could they possibly be without him? They totally suck with him.

[Kerb Hohl]

There is not a single GM in football that would take a center over Adrian Peterson. None.

STFU.

EDIT: And Finley is. Defenses change for him. Just as they scheme to stop Adrian Peterson.

But I hope the Packers are putting their Nick Mangold scheme together for a possible Super Bowl matchup.

[PkrsBcksGphsMqt]

Newz, so would you take a center over any of the following: Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, etc.? Because Adrian Peterson is on that same list.

[LUKE23]

He said "imagine the Vikings without AP". So I said they are 2-6. How much worse could they possibly be without him? They totally suck with him.

I don't think I have to say it here, but this is a ridiculous argument. They are 2-6, but they have been competitive/in every game. Without AD, their offense is junk. They are 2-6 because they have McNabb/rookie QB and horrible WR's. AD is the only thing keeping them in games offensively. But we both know this.

We all agree that RB isn't as important as QB or overall passing game/weapons in today's NFL. But the level you take it to is your opinion and not one widely shared by others.

[chuckleslove]

I've said for about 4 or 5 years now that AP is the only "special" running back in the NFL, I never though CJ was special. Arian Foster is approaching that level but a lot of his success is as much to do with his offensive line and the system too, but he is definitely in that upper tier, probably not "special" though.

And without AP the Vikings are likely 0-8 instead of 2-6, big deal, they are garbage either way

[Newz]

There is not a single GM in football that would take a center over Adrian Peterson. None.

STFU.

Good for them.

EDIT: And Finley is. Defenses change for him. Just as they scheme to stop Adrian Peterson.

But I hope the Packers are putting their Nick Mangold scheme together for a possible Super Bowl matchup.

I haven't been overly impressed with Finley this year. Defenses do pay attention to him, which is great.

I'll still consider him elite when he produces at an elite level. Jimmy Graham has a great QB, tons of weapons on his team, just like Finley... Only he puts up huge numbers at the same time.

I'm not saying Finley cannot be elite. I'm still not convinced that he is elite though.

[LUKE23]

And without AP the Vikings are likely 0-8 instead of 2-6, big deal, they are garbage either way

Judging teams by record alone is tenuous at best in the NFL, given the minimal amount of games. Using it to try and relate value to one player when roughly 30 see the field every game is even more tenuous.

Bottom line, the ENTIRE offensive outside of AD is junk on the Vikings. That includes QB, WR, OL, etc.

[Newz]

Newz, so would you take a center over any of the following: Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, etc.? Because Adrian Peterson is on that same list.

I'm speaking about today's game. So definitely not with Walter Payton or Jim Brown.

Also, Barry Sanders didn't need an offensive line. He is the one RB that I'd say could consistently dominate a game while playing with a total pile of garbage offensive line.

Emmitt Smith? Yeah, I'd rather have a Hall of Fame C over Emmitt Smith any day of the week.

[LUKE23]

I'll still consider him elite when he produces at an elite level. Jimmy Graham has a great QB, tons of weapons on his team, just like Finley... Only he puts up huge numbers at the same time.

So if Finley goes down, do you expect us to still score 33 ppg and lead the league moving forward? Do you think it's coincidence we've scored over 30 ppg with him starting and under 25 with him out? Do you think he significantly shifts coverage off our WR's? Interested in these answers.

[Newz]

So if Finley goes down, do you expect us to still score 33 ppg and lead the league moving forward? Do you think it's coincidence we've scored over 30 ppg with him starting and under 25 with him out? Do you think he significantly shifts coverage off our WR's? Interested in these answers.

I'm interested in why you think I believe he is totally irrelevant just because I don't believe he is elite.

Yes, I still think we'd either be the best offense or at worst a top 3 offense without him.

Obviously losing him would hurt though.

[Kerb Hohl]

Jake Long is the worst offensive tackle in pro football.

[Kerb Hohl]

Newhouse > Joe Thomas.

[Newz]

Jake Long is the worst offensive tackle in pro football.

Me bringing up the record had nothing to do with saying AP wasn't valuable or wasn't a good player.

He said "Imagine how bad they would look without him" and I said they were 2-6. It was simply a statement of "How much worse could they be even without him?".

[LUKE23]

I'm interested in why you think I believe he is totally irrelevant just because I don't believe he is elite.

Yes, I still think we'd either be the best offense or at worst a top 3 offense without him.

Obviously losing him would hurt though.

I'm arguing that he is elite, and he doesn't need to have X amount of catches or yards to prove it. We're scoring around a TD more when he plays. That is significant and it is not coincidence. But hey, lets trade him for Fred Davis, he's got better stats after all.

Finley sees the most coverage on our team, easy. That isn't debatable, nor is it debatable how much it positively impacts the O.

[Kerb Hohl]

Jake Long is the worst offensive tackle in pro football.

Me bringing up the record had nothing to do with saying AP wasn't valuable or wasn't a good player.

He said "Imagine how bad they would look without him" and I said they were 2-6. It was simply a statement of "How much worse could they be even without him?".

The Vikings would be 0-8 without Peterson and would not have had any of their 20 point leads at half that they had 3-4 times.

[chuckleslove]

I'm interested in why you think I believe he is totally irrelevant just because I don't believe he is elite.

Yes, I still think we'd either be the best offense or at worst a top 3 offense without him.

Obviously losing him would hurt though.

I'm arguing that he is elite, and he doesn't need to have X amount of catches or yards to prove it. We're scoring around a TD more when he plays. That is significant and it is not coincidence. But hey, lets trade him for Fred Davis, he's got better stats after all.

Finley sees the most coverage on our team, easy. That isn't debatable, nor is it debatable how much it positively impacts the O.

Over our 6 game winning streak to finish the season last year(without Finley), we averaged 29.3 PPG, so I think that is a more accurate number to compare our current scoring to because that is how long we have really been on a roll and all things clicking for both Rodgers and our team.

I know by comparing every game since Finley went down it skews the numbers more to your favor on the argument but you are talking adjustment period plus an awful game in Detroit where Rodgers left with a concussion.

I don't think Finley is worth 1 TD a game to our offense and I don't think you honestly think he is worth that much either, but maybe I'm wrong but I think you are grossly overstating his value to say he is worth 1 TD a game. I think 3 points a game is probably what he boosts our offensive production by over the course of a full season.

[LUKE23]

I'm using the entire sample for my claim, which is more relevant than picking and choosing stretches of games. He is definitely worth more than 3 points per game to the offense vs. an average TE.

[chuckleslove]

Jake Long is the worst offensive tackle in pro football.

Me bringing up the record had nothing to do with saying AP wasn't valuable or wasn't a good player.

He said "Imagine how bad they would look without him" and I said they were 2-6. It was simply a statement of "How much worse could they be even without him?".

The Vikings would be 0-8 without Peterson and would not have had any of their 20 point leads at half that they had 3-4 times.

They had a 17 point halftime lead on the Bucs and a 20 point halftime lead on the Lions. Not even close to 3-4 times, an argument is always very solid when you have to stretch the numbers to try and make your point.

[chuckleslove]

I'm using the entire sample for my claim, which is more relevant than picking and choosing stretches of games. He is definitely worth more than 3 points per game to the offense vs. an average TE.

I strongly disagree on both accounts. At the minimum the Lions game needs to be thrown out because losing Rodgers hurt us way more than having no Finley in that game, but even still I just disagree that he is worth more than 3 points.

Some people around here have a serious hard on for Finley and he is a great talent/player but if he went down with an injury this week I don't think we would start averaging a touchdown less a game.

[Kerb Hohl]

Wow, I wasn't really trying to stretch that out, so sorry Chuckles. I threw a number out there and it was really high.

Peterson and 2 firsts for Mangold, IMO would be their best move to rebuild.