Easier [For Hawks] To Complement? Horford vs. Smith

[#1 pick]

West doesn't create his offense at a high clip. He is a very good at the PnR. He would be better if he was bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic. He is smart enough. LOL, I actally watch West play, I don't need clips. He is a really just a solid PF who happens to play with an elite PnR PG who create most of his offense for him.

David West's assist% is lower than both Josh and Al.

Stoudemire
2007 PHO C 68.1
2008 PHO C 74.3
2010 PHO PF 62.6
2011 NYK PF 56.2

David West
2008 NOR 57.1
2009 NOR 58.4
2010 NOR 57.0
2011 NOR 60.0

Al Horford
2008 C ATL 66.7
2009 C ATL 66.3
2010 C ATL 65.3
2011 C ATL 69.4

You don't have to be a natural scorer to average a lot of points in this league. You just have to have the right skill-set, the right fit, and the players around you to do it. Joe Johnson averaged 25 one year and he is not a natural scorer. He is a natural #2 option who has some playmaking skill and can do a bit of everything.

Joe Johnson is not a natural scorer as in he's not a #1 because he doesnt get FTA. But he is capable of creating his own shot and double teams off the dribble.
He also shoots 3s. And is a 6'8 Guard. Mismatch.

You really think their isn't a different between having an elite PnR PG and not having one if you are a PnR PF or C?

No you're overstating the effect and even when I gave you video. You denied it/minced your words.
You originally said this.

CP3 understands the PnR better than anyone in the league at PG. He can put the ball where the offensive player can score without the ball touching the ground. He is like the NBA's Tom Brady in that regard. Horford has no issues driving to the rim. It's just driving to the rim highly contested. CP3 does masked that as with any elite PnR PG. Of course CP3 masked shooting off the dribble because he puts it where the defender doesn't have to make a move. Just react which Horford is excellent at on offense.

You were going with popular opinion which isn't fact. Now you're changing the subject to would Horford average 20ppg with CP3?

Who knows? Would his usage stay the same? Horford would have to do it without making a move after the pass or FTs driving to the rim which clearly David West is doing in the video.

You said CP3 gives it to his PF where he doesnt make a move. Yet clearly West is putting dribbling moves on his defender to create more room for his shot.

David West has a different physical toolbox than Horford more balance, more effective ball fakes.
The shorter height and longer length with higher reach. West is nimble and simply a better ballhandler than Center-Forward Al Horford and uses it to score.

Not to say Horford isn't more well rounded. But that David West is more of a scorer.

If West doesnt fake a move and then dribble then he cant score. If Horford does that its not "nimble" and ends badly. Whats there to argue? If Horford could get 20ppg on jump shots?

Horford goes hard to the rim and someone tries to block him he gets injured? IE not Ersan Ilyasova.

Amare is a #1 option outside of the Melo trade for most of his career.
West has been a #2 option since CP3 came to New Orleans.
Horford has been somewhere between 4th and 5th option during his entire career in Atlanta. In fact, since Drew, Atlanta doesn't even have options, it whoever wants shots, h*ll, take em'.

Joe Johnson doesn't draw fouls because he lack a first, second and 3rd step. He is a fluid player. He is more of a playmaker anyway. Joe can create his own shot but my point was you do not have to be a natural scorer to average a lot of points in this league.

The players who draw fouls are physical force, slashers, or clusmy players. If you aren't one of those I mention, it's unlikely you will head to the line much.

Of course Horford averaging 20ppg or more with CP3 isn't fact since they aren't teammate with factual history with each other. It's just far more likely since both are elite PnR players. Nothing is a fact till it actually happens.

You keep going by clips, I've actually evaluted and watch the games. Your whole point is senseless since most very good player can score off the dribble at times and Horford is no exception. You question is can he make it a part of his game. I do not see it. He isn't that good at it. You can show a clip of Joe dunking on someone, that doesn't mean Joe dunks on players with regularity. West handles aren't has good as Horford. Both struggle in that area. He most def isn't nimble either. He is sloot footed. Horford actually isn't sloot footed, but he just isn't nimble either.


West doesn't have good phyiscal tools. You love bringing up long arms and measurements but in reality, that really doesn't matter. Horford has a much better understanding of movement. Is a lot quicker. Is a lot more explosive. He is a superior defender. He can actually play man D in the post and on the ball. Horford has an excellent shooting touch. He has an elite jumper while West jumper is very good. He can get his shot off v. most defenders regardless how many times you bring up Chi or Dwight. Most of all NBA teams can't defend like that but those two teams so it's a moot point.

West had to learn how to use jabs, fakes, and the triple threat to create space since he lacks the natural tools to do so. He doesn't have great BBIQ either, good but not great. West really isn't a scorer. He is a solid offensive minded PF who is a very good PnR PF. He is in the same tier as Paul Millsap.

I don't think you have a clue about movement, BBIQ, dishes, being in the right spot at the right time, drawing fouls because of great placement and what not. For someone who calls himself PointguardSlim, you sure seem to have no clue about what makes a great PG and how it can impact others around him. Especially some who in need of a player like that.

[Ruhiel]

Amare is a #1 option outside of the Melo trade for most of his career.
West has been a #2 option since CP3 came to New Orleans.
Horford has been somewhere between 4th and 5th option during his entire career in Atlanta. In fact, since Drew, Atlanta doesn't even have options, it whoever wants shots, h*ll, take em'.
Joe Johnson doesn't draw fouls because he lack a first, second and 3rd step. He is a fluid player. He is more of a playmaker anyway. Joe can create his own shot but my point was you do not have to be a natural scorer to average a lot of points in this league.

You mean you don't have to draw a lot of fouls? Joe Johnson

Of course Horford averaging 20ppg or more with CP3 isn't fact since they aren't teammate with factual history with each other. It's just far more likely since both are elite PnR players. Nothing is a fact till it actually happens.

I didnt ask if it were fact. Changing the subject again. I asked if he would do it as a center or as a PF with only jumpers.

If Horford is better PnR than David "just solid" West shouldnt he be averaging 26ppg to West's 20ppg?
Horford is just solid in PnP and nothing in the PnR with a center.
U watch games but dont comprehend.

The spacing changes.

Your whole point is senseless since most very good player can score off the dribble at times and Horford is no exception. You question is can he make it a part of his game. I do not see it. He isn't that good at it. You can show a clip of Joe dunking on someone, that doesn't mean Joe dunks on players with regularity. West handles aren't has good as Horford. Both struggle in that area. He most def isn't nimble either. He is sloot footed. Horford actually isn't sloot footed, but he just isn't nimble either.

West doesn't have good phyiscal tools. You love bringing up long arms and measurements but in reality, that really doesn't matter.

He can get his shot off v. most defenders regardless how many times you bring up Chi or Dwight. Most of all NBA teams can't defend like that but those two teams so it's a moot point.

I'm not bringing up Dwight. I'm bringing up nimble guys. Like Ryan Andersen. Like Brandon Bass.

West had to learn how to use jabs, fakes, and the triple threat to create space since he lacks the natural tools to do so.

He doesn't have great BBIQ either, good but not great. West really isn't a scorer. He is a solid offensive minded PF who is a very good PnR PF. He is in the same tier as Paul Millsap.

I don't think you have a clue about movement, BBIQ, dishes, being in the right spot at the right time, drawing fouls because of great placement and what not. For someone who calls himself PointguardSlim, you sure seem to have no clue about what makes a great PG and how it can impact others around him. Especially some who in need of a player like that.

You said "Of course CP3 masked shooting off the dribble because he puts it where the defender doesn't have to make a move. Just react which Horford is excellent at on offense."

Go ask somebody else #1pick. If I can say David West is 6'9 and has 7'4 arms and a higher reach than Horford and I show you clips of him driving without getting injured.
IE ON BALANCE. IE Kawhi Leonard with his 28 inch (?) vertical. All he does is extend his arms he doesn't need to jump high.

You say he doesn't have good physical tools and CP3 puts it where it needs to be so he doesn't need to dribble.

And then you change it from "best PF in the game" to 20ppg. David West avg 20ppg with CP3 he's not the best in the game. According to you that's Dirk then Amare.

Best PF in the game? He can get his shot off better than David West? David West was shooting fadeaways on Bynum?

Seriously I have no doubt that Horford could get more jump shots as a PF but everything else? Like the Mike Bibby PnRs came in a spread offense @ center. West has less spacing and has to create and hit shots off the dribble, contested fadeaways. His length does matter.
Whether you like it or not take all these points to player comparison or general board.

You went from saying best PF in the game to saying Horford needs a crutch PG.

[#1 pick]

Amare is a #1 option outside of the Melo trade for most of his career.
West has been a #2 option since CP3 came to New Orleans.
Horford has been somewhere between 4th and 5th option during his entire career in Atlanta. In fact, since Drew, Atlanta doesn't even have options, it whoever wants shots, h*ll, take em'.
Joe Johnson doesn't draw fouls because he lack a first, second and 3rd step. He is a fluid player. He is more of a playmaker anyway. Joe can create his own shot but my point was you do not have to be a natural scorer to average a lot of points in this league.

You mean you don't have to draw a lot of fouls? Joe Johnson


The players who draw fouls are physical force, slashers, or clusmy players. If you aren't one of those I mention, it's unlikely you will head to the line much.


Of course Horford averaging 20ppg or more with CP3 isn't fact since they aren't teammate with factual history with each other. It's just far more likely since both are elite PnR players. Nothing is a fact till it actually happens.

Your whole point is senseless since most very good player can score off the dribble at times and Horford is no exception. You question is can he make it a part of his game. I do not see it. He isn't that good at it. You can show a clip of Joe dunking on someone, that doesn't mean Joe dunks on players with regularity. West handles aren't has good as Horford. Both struggle in that area. He most def isn't nimble either. He is sloot footed. Horford actually isn't sloot footed, but he just isn't nimble either.

West doesn't have good phyiscal tools. You love bringing up long arms and measurements but in reality, that really doesn't matter.

He can get his shot off v. most defenders regardless how many times you bring up Chi or Dwight. Most of all NBA teams can't defend like that but those two teams so it's a moot point.

I'm not bringing up Dwight. I'm bringing up nimble guys. Like Ryan Andersen. Like Brandon Bass.

West had to learn how to use jabs, fakes, and the triple threat to create space since he lacks the natural tools to do so.

He doesn't have great BBIQ either, good but not great. West really isn't a scorer. He is a solid offensive minded PF who is a very good PnR PF. He is in the same tier as Paul Millsap.

I don't think you have a clue about movement, BBIQ, dishes, being in the right spot at the right time, drawing fouls because of great placement and what not. For someone who calls himself PointguardSlim, you sure seem to have no clue about what makes a great PG and how it can impact others around him. Especially some who in need of a player like that.

You said "Of course CP3 masked shooting off the dribble because he puts it where the defender doesn't have to make a move. Just react which Horford is excellent at on offense."

Go ask somebody else #1pick. If I can say David West is 6'9 and has 7'4 arms and a higher reach than Horford and I show you clips of him driving without getting injured.
IE ON BALANCE. IE Kawhi Leonard with his 28 inch (?) vertical. All he does is extend his arms he doesn't need to jump high.

You say he doesn't have good physical tools and CP3 puts it where it needs to be so he doesn't need to dribble.

And then you change it from "best PF in the game" to 20ppg. David West avg 20ppg with CP3 he's not the best in the game. According to you that's Dirk then Amare.

Best PF in the game? He can get his shot off better than David West? David West was shooting fadeaways on Bynum?

Seriously I have no doubt that Horford could get more jump shots as a PF but everything else? Like the Mike Bibby PnRs came in a spread offense @ center. West has less spacing and has to create and hit shots off the dribble, contested fadeaways. His length does matter.
Whether you like it or not take all these points to player comparison or general board.

You went from saying best PF in the game to saying Horford needs a crutch PG.

I never changed up nothing I've said. I said he is the best PF with a elite PnR PG. I am starting to think you are a troll. Nothing you say really is to a point of what I am saying.

Bass and Andersen, none of those guys could guard Horford and they got killed when Dwight wasn't in the game when they guard Horford. Dwight= Elite team defense for ANY team.

Yes CP3 could masked it to a degree. That's basically my point, if you understood the game, you would understand that.

There you go with reach again, it is important to a degree but not that important when you are comparing very good players to solid ones or very good players to average ones. West just isn't on the level. It's that simple.

Bibby PnR was limited because teams knew Bibby would only do two things. Pull up jumper or pass to Horford. They would try to cut on the PnR and force Bibby to either shoot or pass the ball. Cp3 and PG's like him are so talented and have such great talent and vision. It's like they are in control of the whole court. It's night and day for the PF or C setting the pick.

[Ruhiel]

"There you go with reach again, it is important to a degree but not that important when you are comparing very good players to solid ones or very good players to average ones. West just isn't on the level. It's that simple. "

We're comparing Al Horford to David West...

David West is assisted less than Smith or Horford. He can play inside out and has a lot of length for his height which allows him to "play bigger" than he is.

Horford has issues scoring. Scoring through contact with his length is not enough. Getting to the rim. We're comparing him to long PFs like Amare and David West?

Dwight Howard has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that Horford is a dunker with average athleticism (length, speed, balance).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL-fV5-oX14[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZhRPVMetY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbIoFqBS9sM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KxdIjcIN1Q[/youtube]

Horford's length= he cant fake someone out and score quickly = he passes.

[#1 pick]

"There you go with reach again, it is important to a degree but not that important when you are comparing very good players to solid ones or very good players to average ones. West just isn't on the level. It's that simple. "

We're comparing Al Horford to David West...

David West is assisted less than Smith or Horford. He can play inside out and has a lot of length for his height which allows him to "play bigger" than he is.

Horford has issues scoring. Scoring through contact with his length is not enough. Getting to the rim. We're comparing him to long PFs like Amare and David West?

Dwight Howard has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that Horford is a dunker with average athleticism (length, speed, balance).


Horford's length= he cant fake someone out and score quickly = he passes.

Average athleticism??? MaceCase said it best in regards to you especially the bolded.

You didn't even bother to think before you posted did you? You just wanted to get text out on the internet rather than go quiet again like the Amnesty thread. What does usage have to do with anything? How does that even come close to responding to what I typed? Are you so dense that you can't even realize when people are parodying you? Just for you, they spread Amar'e's usage and wins amongst a plethora of bums to be more diverse and spread out just like the Ruhiel Plan but alas because you suffer tremendously from foot in mouth syndrome all you can do is split hairs over Hedo's height rather than acknowledge that the Babby plan looks suspiciously like the Ruhiel "plan". My my, I'd stop posting if I was you before I faced a lawsuit for infringement on intellectual properties.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I have a question, has JSmith actually said that he prefers to play Power Forward?

He prefers to play SF. But he isn't a SF or PF. It really just depends on the matchup. Most teams, he is better playing at PF. But some teams like Orlando, he is better at SF. He is more of a PF.

He has bulked up to be a PF(240). He really is more of a SF. He can get mismatches as a SF better than he can at PF. He is just ask to play the PF for the Hawks. You can argue that he is a middle class point forward with slashing ability. Hence, that is why he can get to the FT line and have a fair number of assists. IMO, I think he really would like to lose 10 pounds and play primarily SF.

[Ruhiel]

guard SFs and clog the passing lanes and triple team the defensive glass? Get FTs and offensive boards. Heck yeah. But in the halfcourt Smith has to be on the baseline.

Which requires a center or a PF who can play the wing.

[Ruhiel]

Al Horford and it's not even close. Both players aren't in great situations as it is. Smith with Teague starting should be a good fit for Smith. Horford is just a terrible fit and is still a very effective player. The day we can get a PnR PG and move him to PF will be the day where we can really have a shot to win it all.

Smith is very good.

This just tell you what we already know. He's not a playmaker in terms of creating his shot. He is a PnR PF.

He is not a traditional PF. He's a movement based PF who uses movement and his range to create points. He can only do that as a PnR PF if he is going to score anything more than 15ppg.

Horford is the best PF in the league if you put him around Deron or CP3. Not the stupid s**t Atlanta does. A scoring PG who is more of a SG(Crawford?), A defensive minded PG who is more of a SG(Teague), or they got rid of a balanced PG who is really old and is more of a liability(Bibby).

This tells us what we already know. Horford's strong suits don't suit our personnel.dribble drive

No, we need an elite PnR PG.Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams type of PG

For what the Hawks have, he just isn't a good fit but he is so talented that he makes due.

Teague and Smith are up tempo players which fits that style of play ...

Playoffs is where teams adjust. If we couldn't get into an offense and had no movement, how do we expect Horford to do anything on offense. The playoffs is about matchups. Without Bibby, Horford is the easiest to take out because he's a movement based player who needs support and the setup which isn't there.

Both players aren't in great situations as it is. Smith with Teague starting should be a good fit for Smith. Horford is just a terrible fit and is still a very effective player. The day we can get a PnR PG and move him to PF will be the day where we can really have a shot to win it all.

Smith is very good.

In regards to helping Horford:

No, we need an elite PnR PG.Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams type of PG.

Now just to remind you this is a thread on who can the Hawks complement easier. Best trade chips as is are Horford and Smith.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Steve Nash won't be coming for Josh Smith along with a center...


In regards Al's style:

No, we need an elite PnR PG.Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams type of PG.

Horford has elite ability to run coast to coast at the position. ...
Teague and Smith are up tempo players which fits that style of play but Smith isn't a good fit on any team who is trying to contend. T

what? Smith (wing) Teague (guard) will be on the break but what is "the position" where Horford's coast to coast ability come into play?

Horford has no issues driving to the rim with a head of steam. His issue is taking player off the dribble and driving off top which invloves the need for a great first step.

Amare is a better scorer than Horford. That's a no brainer. He can also create his own shot. He can create his own shot. He can run the PnR, PnP, excellent first step, etc.

West doesn't create his own offense at a high clip. He can create his offense at a solid clip. [/quote]
assisted field goal% past 5 years

David West
56.4
57.1
58.4
57.0
60.0
Al Horford
66.7
66.3
65.3
69.4
Josh Smith
55.7
62.4
64.6
62.1
69.4

Chris Paul would make Horford's assist% go up

If David West is solid and doesn't create his own offense ... Go ask anyone if Horford has the balance to be a scorer, ie take the ball to the basket.

Horford could get more open jumpshots but thats not all David West does, clearly. Could Horford get 20ppg as a PF (less spacing) with Chris Paul? IDK what would his assists and minutes be? Would the team be gutted?

Is it a moot point given
A) the topic
B) we cant get those PGs for what we have and still hope to compete ie Carmelo 4 for 1 type Deal
C) Horford would still be at Center

[Ruhiel]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1133517
Al Horford vs David West

[Ruhiel]

ROSTER FIX 8)
Some Bucks fans say theywould be open to a Bogut + Jon Leuer for Horford trade.


Our frontcourt would be Josh Smith, Jon Leuer, Andrew Bogut . They wouldn't bite on Sanders,Bogut,Leuer they think Sanders can play center.


Bogut vs Horford
Leuer + Smith vs Marvin + Smith

Offense
Josh+Horf inside, marvin outside
Defense
josh sf bogut c leuer pf
or
Josh+Drew Bogut inside, Jon outside




edit: new sig

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jsf-upgQ6M[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUcUi4FlS2Q&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]


Leuer stands 6'11.5 (same height as Bosh) looks great 7'0 wingspan that good forwards have.

David Lee, Smith, Pierce, Rich Jefferson, Charlie V

looks near identical to rookie David Lee, but taller with more range and used his height David Lee up in workouts.
Finish with dunks or trail for midrange (maybe fade for 3s ) in transiton. Simple but effective post game he can iso vs smaller forwards if switch happens unlike smaller Marvin. Averaging 13ppg in Germany?

He's a much better 4th option in ISO-TEAGUE and ISO-JOE than marvin.

Bogut vs Horford... not familiar with Bogut but Bogut's defense can allow his jumper to disappear on offense at times he'll get easy buckets keep ball alive shut down Noah etc.

[Geaux_Hawks]

That's a good trade if Leuer can play up to his college strengths. Good trade regardless IMO, so its more like an even beter trade if Leuer plays to his strengths.

[Ruhiel]

That's a good trade if Leuer can play up to his college stregths. Good trade regardless IMO, so its more like an even beter trade if Leuer plays to his strengths.

Looking at his plays and his measurements

Leuer is a perimeter David Lee more range better and tighter handles.
Like David Lee needs guards to create motion for him so he can pull up shoot drive etc.

Don't see him being the focal point and setting up our guards. Other way around PnR, pick and pop, pull ups will all have to come from someone setting him up. But he can post up switches make the right pass.

I see a perimeter David Lee with more reach for blocks and maybe a better pullup game.

Bogut, Johnson, Teague, Smith setting screens, setting the tables and motion up. I'm drooling.

Leuer + Bogut is the perfect fix for the team. .

.......

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aROdr-IDE7g[/youtube]

Sad watching that sh*t. I see a pull up jumper and Leuer beating a SF on a closeout to the rim. Leuer is a better faster dribbler than Marvin.
Unlike Leuer Marvin's problem is his wingspan is too long for his height. he's just an unbalanced player. If he were 6'10 he'd be an excellent PF. Marvin's got the same length as Chris Webber,


Here's some of the 7'0 wingspan PFs: Personally I see him as a better height and reach + quickness + perimeter skills combo of these guys:
7'0 wingspan: Kaman (252), Rich Jefferson (6'8.5), Charlie Villanueva (6'9), David Lee (6'9)


Charlie V with Defense? Off of Joe and Teague and Bogut and Smith he'll knock down set shots, pull up like a shooter and get hot at times but unllike Charlie V he can help Smith and Bogut play defense. Leuer is a ideal role player with mismatch potential unlike Marvin.

Excellent Trade Imo.
But I think his contract will be like $500K so how will the contracts match up!

[Geaux_Hawks]

I can't make sense of your post, but YEAH!! woot woot! I like Bogut and Leuer also :p