Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

40 Guzzle · Post #981 » by **40 Guzzle** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 2:59 am

dhackett1565 wrote:
The big spenders used to have the mid level to improve their teams. With that greatly reduced, what mechanism do you think takes it's place? S+T's would be much more heavily used going forward.

excellent point, looks like the owners are staying one step ahead trying to foresee where & how the new rules may be circumvented

Post #982 » by **Cyrus** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:01 am

floppymoose wrote:The Hedo s&t was between the Magic and Raptors.

No there was another to get Hedo to the suns from the Raptors, I believe some player (Bit player) was signed and then traded to make the deal work out?

Indeed · Post #983 » by **Indeed** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:11 am

BorisDK1 wrote:
Indeed wrote:Yes, it is more of a theory, and players won't accept it neither. Players want stable and long term benefits, and that system doesn't provide it.

Anyway, perhaps changing the way how basketball should play might work (more team ball), but it takes time to change the culture, and NBA based on the focus of promoting one dominate player might not work best for them.

Therefore, I am not looking forward in any competitive parity, because it is not a priority to them.

You know, this is way OT, but it really bothers me when people assume that having a more equitable distribution of shots on a team is somehow "more team ball". The best players on the team should bear the most possessions, because by doing so they make their teammates more efficient. Smart basketball players always ask themselves four questions: "Who am I? Who are my teammates? Who's guarding me? Who's guarding them?" Smart basketball players defer to better ones, and really good ones who are also really smart welcome and flourish even with greater defensive scrutiny. Stupid players seek more shots when they have better players in more advantageous situations around them.

Good team basketball requires players who understand their roles and play within them. That's how efficient offense is created, and that's where winning comes from. Do we really think the Raptors would have been better off two years ago with Andrea Bargnani and Chris Bosh having an equitable distribution of offense? Of course not: Bosh was ridiculously efficient, and Bargnani is ridiculously inefficient. You need to capitalize on the best players available.

I agree, but you are assuming there is only one best player on each team, so most possessions are generated by one person. However, I am thinking to have improve talents on each team, and it is more fun to watch when you have both Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady on their prime.

I am expecting to have better farm system, which can produce more talents to implement strategies for the game. Although it is far from being perfect, but I believe there are lots more talents, simply lack of training and development hurt the industry itself. NBA is protecting its players and game, but perhaps not an organization to push basketball to the world.

bboyskinnylegs · Post #984 » by **bboyskinnylegs** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:13 am

Cyrus wrote:
floppymoose wrote:The Hedo s&t was between the Magic and Raptors.

No there was another to get Hedo to the suns from the Raptors, I believe some player (Bit player) was signed and then traded to make the deal work out?

The Raptors-Suns deal was a simple trade, Hedo for Barbosa+Dwayne Jones.

The only sign and trade involving Hedo was Fruitman's magic with the Raps, Mavs, Magic, and Grizzlies.

Indeed · Post #985 » by **Indeed** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 3:51 am

Cyrus wrote:
floppymoose wrote:The Hedo s&t was between the Magic and Raptors.

No there was another to get Hedo to the suns from the Raptors, I believe some player (Bit player) was signed and then traded to make the deal work out?

I thought you mentioned Shawn Marion, who sign and trade to the Mavs to make the trade works.

Meanwhile, for sign and trade to work, you got to be under the tax, and perhaps under the cap.
You can only bargain with the other team when you have cap room to sign the player straight, otherwise, you have to give up assets to do it.

As for the Raptors, they were below the tax and cap at that time, but it seems like the Mavs was over the cap and tax (can't remember). If you count the Raps, then the Heats signing LeBron and Bosh should be included?

Post #986 » by **Cyrus** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 4:18 am

No LBJ/Bosh deals were under the tax threshold...Infact they were like 6-8 million under the lux tax last year (Miami).

TiKusDom · Post #987 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 4:52 am

The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

Ponchos · Post #988 » by **Ponchos** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:10 am

TiKusDom wrote:The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

There's just so many things factually incorrect with what you wrote I don't know where to begin...

TiKusDom · Post #989 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:12 am

Ponchos wrote:
TiKusDom wrote:The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

There's just so many things factually incorrect with what you wrote I don't know where to begin...

go ahead begin

Tofubeque · Post #990 » by **Tofubeque** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:15 am

Federal moderator presents compromise between two parties

NBA: We'll accept 5 of those 6 compromises

NBPA: BLOW THIS SH** UUUPPPP

Good lord NBPA, your PR couldn't be worse at this point. As a Raptors fan I'd be okay with a lockout, but I really hope this is just a last hissy fit by elite players, or the union is even dumber than I thought.

Indeed · Post #991 » by **Indeed** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:20 am

Ponchos wrote:
TiKusDom wrote:The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

There's just so many things factually incorrect with what you wrote I don't know where to begin...

I agree, and why not think from the owner perspective on how much they lost as well.

TiKusDom · Post #992 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:27 am

Indeed wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
TiKusDom wrote:The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

There's just so many things factually incorrect with what you wrote I don't know where to begin...

I agree, and why not think from the owner perspective on how much they lost as well.

4% lost wages per week. math is not your friend.

Ponchos · Post #993 » by **Ponchos** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:33 am

TiKusDom wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
TiKusDom wrote:The season is on the verge of being lost , if this goes into late December, the season is pretty much over, I dont see the sides compromising. The players are too greedy , they dont realize that in order to have a balanced competitive league they have to take one or two less %. They are badly losing the PR battle and are running out of time and options. By now they already lost as much money as they would have made with a 53 % split, and their losses are just going to get bigger and bigger.

There's just so many things factually incorrect with what you wrote I don't know where to begin...

go ahead begin

Well, since I have your permission.

During the last lockout an handshake agreement wasn't reached until January. So that kinda kills your late December = lost season premise.

Balanced competitive league has no correlation to BRI %.

You can't say they've already lost more money than they would have at 53% since we don't know how many actual games have been lost. If they come to an agreement soon, expect a 70+ game season.

TiKusDom · Post #994 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:42 am

Ponchos wrote:Well, since I have your permission.

During the last lockout an handshake agreement wasn't reached until January. So that kinda kills your late December = lost season premise.

Balanced competitive league has no correlation to BRI %.

You can't say they've already lost more money than they would have at 53% since we don't know how many actual games have been lost. If they come to an agreement soon, expect a 70+ game season.

Yeah except last CBA players were given ridiculous amounts of concessions and large BRI with huge system changes in their favor, and it took them 3 months to accept. BIG difference. Now its exactly the opposite. Yes balanced competitive league and profitability have a correlation with BRI, that's one of the biggest arguments small market owners are making. A month of games has been cancelled which is equivalent of 16 % earning wages and this isnt ending anytime soon , especially with a decertification push . Will they make up the games in the future you dont know I dont know, the fact is that 1 month of wages has already been lost. Do the math.

Ponchos · Post #995 » by **Ponchos** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:48 am

I know for a fact they will make up games. They ran a condensed schedule after the last lockout, and there's plenty of indications from the media that the NBA is hard at work to find ways to fit more games in April. Not to mention the fact that the players are paid based off BRI, if you get a full playoff schedule and the big network games, then missed games in November are not as significant as you think (ie they have lost nowhere close to 16%).

Small markets are arguing for revenue sharing and increased restrictions on luxury tax teams. That's completely different than BRI %.

TiKusDom · Post #996 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:50 am

Ponchos wrote:I know for a fact they will make up games. They ran a condensed schedule after the last lockout, and there's plenty of indications from the media that the NBA is hard at work to find ways to fit more games in April. Not to mention the fact that the players are paid based off BRI, if you get a full playoff schedule and the big network games, then missed games in November is not as significant as you think (ie they have lost nowhere close to 16%).

Small markets are arguing for revenue sharing and increased restrictions on luxury tax teams. That's completely different than BRI %.

No small markets are arguing for a 47 53 split unless there is more revenue sharing and more tax, which the players oppose because they view it as a hard cap , read the news. You know for a fact? You can tell what's going to happen in the future? Last time they had a lockout they managed to get a "condensed" schedule of 50 games, do the math on that one too. That's about less than 2/3s of the games played.

Ponchos · Post #997 » by **Ponchos** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:55 am

TiKusDom wrote:No small markets are arguing for a 47 53 split , read the news.

I'm aware of what they're arguing for. However, competitive balance issues are separate from BRI. Why don't you get that?

You know for a fact? You can tell what's going to happen in the future? Last time they had a lockout they managed to get a "condensed" schedule of 50 games, do the math on that one too. That's about less than 2/3s of the games played.

Yes I know for a fact that the NBA will play as many games as they possibly can once an agreement is reached. You don't?

In 98 they lost 3 months, Nov, Dec, Jan. But still managed 2/3rds of a season with just Feb Mar Apr. As you are fond of saying, do the math. Lost half the calendar season, yet still managed 2/3rds of the games... Hmmmmmm... A real head scratcher.

TiKusDom · Post #998 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:00 am

Ponchos wrote:
TiKusDom wrote:No small markets are arguing for a 47 53 split , read the news.

I'm aware of what they're arguing for. However, competitive balance issues are separate from BRI. Why don't you get that?

You know for a fact? You can tell what's going to happen in the future? Last time they had a lockout they managed to get a "condensed" schedule of 50 games, do the math on that one too. That's about less than 2/3s of the games played.

Yes I know for a fact that the NBA will play as many games as they possibly can once an agreement is reached. You don't?

In 98 they lost 3 months, Nov, Dec, Jan. But still managed 2/3rds of a season with just Feb Mar Apr. As you are fond of saying, do the math. Lost half the calendar season, yet still managed 2/3rds of the games... Hmmmmmm... A real head scratcher.

yeah a real head scratcher now do the math on how much money they lost, oh wow they managed 60 % of the season's games instead of 50 % in the last 3 months, that sure is a lot of games made up!

Ponchos · Post #999 » by **Ponchos** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:06 am

66%, and yes it is a lot of games. In fact, based on those numbers they can miss all of November and still play 82 games.

You should quit while you're behind.

TiKusDom · Post #1000 » by **TiKusDom** » Mon Nov 7, 2011 6:06 am

Ponchos wrote:66%, and yes it is a lot of games. In fact, based on those numbers they can miss all of November and still play 82 games.

You should quit while you're behind.

50 /82 = 61 % not 66 % . calculator ftw. your math sucks, you're the one who needs to give up trying to do division.