Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

[Ponchos]

Stop saying bad deal.

It was always going to be a bad deal. This is about getting the best deal possible period.

Sometimes I think people respond to my posts without even reading them.

How dare you say that about my mother.

[Ponchos]

Hunter now saying there was little talk of decertification, and he's hearing that games will be cancelled through Christmas if there's no deal tomorrow.

Looks like he's trying to save his job now?

No, it looks like he's trying to improve on the ultimatum offer.

[S.W.A.N]

Stop saying bad deal.

It was always going to be a bad deal. This is about getting the best deal possible period.

Sometimes I think people respond to my posts without even reading them.

Read, and admittedly misread.

Still cranked up over your Kobe comment


As for the meeting.. Liked what I heard so far. They will do 50-50 if they get some better treatment on the system side...Depending on how much Stern willing to tweak we will have a deal.

[floppymoose]

Hunter now saying there was little talk of decertification, and he's hearing that games will be cancelled through Christmas if there's no deal tomorrow.

Looks like he's trying to save his job now?

Nothing to be gained from talking about decertification. He knows better than to overtly threaten the owners. Let the agents do it behind the scenes. Let the rumors plant seeds of doubt in the owners, but don't directly challenge their ego's the way the owners did to the players.

That's the best way to get the owners to improve their offer tomorrow.

[floppymoose]

Read, and admittedly misread.

Thanks. I take anyone who can admit an error way more seriously (honestly).

[bboyskinnylegs]

Hunter: "I would give (Michael Jordan) the advice he gave Abe Pollin."

lol, you know they were just dying to use that

[LittleOzzy]

Another day another turned down deal.

I'm getting sick of both sides in this whole thing. I actually hope they just cancel the season and work on a proper deal throughout the winter.

[Ponchos]

So am I going to get an actual response to what I asked Reignman or are you ignoring it and moving on?

Bottom line, the union works for the majority. If the majority want the deal at 50% or 30% or 80% then you go with their wishes, that's the job of the negotiators.

The owners present an offer on Monday that 51% of the union would vote yes on. The lead negotiators refuse to take the deal to a vote.

Then the owners up their offer on Tuesday that 65% of the union would vote yes on. The lead negotiators take the vote to their constituents and it passes. CBA done.

Were the negotiators negligent in their duties for not having a vote on the Monday proposal?

[floppymoose]

WojYahooNBA:

Sixers rep Jason Kapono: "...An aggressive tone in the room. We're not going to be bullied by the league. No one there wanted this deal."

Hunter says he isn't buying NBA's offer comes off table for good tomorrow, still believes owners will eventually do a 50-50 revenue split.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Bill Clinton is there?

[I_Like_Dirt]

I've said it many times but I'm ok with revenue sharing, I just don't think revenue sharing should be the back bone of a business.

If only 2 teams were losing money (like the NFL / combined $10 mil) then I'd agree that revenue sharing can fill the gap; however, that's not the case here, the books show 22 teams losing money. That's the sign of a broken business model.

You keep saying revenue sharing shouldn't be the backbone of a business, but then you always turn around and bring up the NFL. Guess what's the backbone of the NFL's current system? Huge revenue sharing. Guess what is currently going on in the NFL and was at the heart of the recent labour negotiation? Owners of wealthier teams are trying to fight revenue sharing to push teams who don't make as much money. Take away that revenue sharing and suddenly you've got lots of teams in the NFL losing money.

You also keep bringing up how 'the books' show 22 teams losing money. What books? Have you seen them? The owners claim there are 22 teams losing money and that the mysterious books prove that, but there is no explanation given to how and why and under what circumstances and we aren't going to see them any time soon. With increased revenue sharing comparable to the NFL, how many of those unsubstantiated 22 teams stop losing money?

You keep pushing for parity, but ultimately parity is a function of financials. It doesn't matter if you legislate the price of a product or the amount you can pay employees or anything like that, a big chain will inevitably outperform a one-off mom-and-pop shop if put into direct competition, on average. Bigger disparity in money means a bigger disparity competitively. The only way to bridge that gap is revenue sharing. If you don't want that, then you don't really want increased parity long-term.

You call revenue sharing a bandaid solution, but what do you foresee happening with increased revenue sharing? What does the NBA lose in revenue sharing that would hurt parity down the line?

[LittleOzzy]

I hope Stern cancels the season tomorrow at Noon and states he will retire once a new deal is reached.

One last stand to make the NBA a level playing field for all 30 owners across the league. Screw the players, if they want to get paid next season they will sign the deal they are given.

I really never thought the lock out would last this long.

[BLKMASS]

There was an earlier wiretap that said Stern may be willing to meet and tweak the offer he proposed, so perhaps there will be another meeting tomorrow morning.

[Orsk]

I hope Stern cancels the season tomorrow at Noon and states he will retire once a new deal is reached.

One last stand to make the NBA a level playing field for all 30 owners across the league. Screw the players, if they want to get paid next season they will sign the deal they are given.

I really never thought the lock out would last this long.

I'm with Ozzy on this one. This has become too much about egos and each side winning. The players can be damned, I've always said screw unions, if you don't like the deal or the conditions supplied, go work elsewhere....

[floppymoose]

There are rumors that the draft for next season, if this season is lost, will use a lottery. The lotto will be between the 14 worst teams as determined by their records over the past three years. Here is the complete list. Everyone down to the Bucks would be in the lotto, after that it would be a set order.

Code: Select all

Timberwolves  56   190
Kings         66   180
Wizards       68   178
Nets          70   176
Clippers      80   166
Warriors      91   155
Raptors       95   151
Pistons       96   150
Knicks        103   143
Pacers        105   141
76ers         109   137
Grizzlies     110   136
Bobcats       113   133
Bucks         115   131
-----------------------------
Thunder       128   118
Hornets       132   114
Rockets       138   108
Jazz          140   106
Suns          140   106
Hawks         144   102
Bulls         144   102
Cavaliers     146   100
Heat          148   98
Trail Blazers 152   94
Nuggets       157   89
Mavericks     162   84
Spurs         165   81
Celtics       168   78
Magic         170   76
Lakers        179   67

[bboyskinnylegs]

^^ That could potentially end up being a real steal for the Thunder picking at #15. They could probably get a very good PG prospect in Kabongo/Wroten/Teague and deal Westbrook for a big upgrade elsewhere (maybe even try to make a big push for Howard?)

[Cyrus]

I actually hope the owners give in a little bit in BRI, and keep system issues in...stuff like mini or short contracts for tax offenders, no sign and Trades...

It's the only thing currently in the discussion, that has any semblance of having some parity implications, ie Dallas and Lakers can't use S&T option to get a deal done (No marion) or sign people with MLE (Atleast a full version).

[HangTime]

There are rumors that the draft for next season, if this season is lost, will use a lottery. The lotto will be between the 14 worst teams as determined by their records over the past three years. Here is the complete list. Everyone down to the Bucks would be in the lotto, after that it would be a set order.

Code: Select all

Timberwolves  56   190
Kings         66   180
Wizards       68   178
Nets          70   176
Clippers      80   166
Warriors      91   155
Raptors       95   151
Pistons       96   150
Knicks        103   143
Pacers        105   141
76ers         109   137
Grizzlies     110   136
Bobcats       113   133
Bucks         115   131
-----------------------------
Thunder       128   118
Hornets       132   114
Rockets       138   108
Jazz          140   106
Suns          140   106
Hawks         144   102
Bulls         144   102
Cavaliers     146   100
Heat          148   98
Trail Blazers 152   94
Nuggets       157   89
Mavericks     162   84
Spurs         165   81
Celtics       168   78
Magic         170   76
Lakers        179   67

Isn't the draft technically part of the season? If the season is lost, shouldn't the draft be lost as well?

Also, if there is a draft, they would really have to change their approach.
-Cleveland, Washington, LA Clippers should be ineligible for the top pick (because they had it the last 3 years)
-New York, Indiana, Philadelphia, Memphis all made the playoffs last year, and should be placed between 15-20.
-Rockets, Suns, missed out on 2 playoffs, over 3 years, and should be placed in this lottery.

Anyone else see some major flaws in the system? I could see the Knicks getting the #1 pick in the flawed system.

[Rhettmatic]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Everyone knows union takes 50-50. Comes to this: Will owners give them crumbs on MLE for taxpayers, sign-trade, escrow, etc., for deal?

I think that hits the nail on the head. And the system issues are so minor that it basically comes down to whether the owners want to let the union save the tiniest bit of face and just get a deal done, or if they'd rather drag this out for a while longer.

I actually hope the owners give in a little bit in BRI, and keep system issues in...stuff like mini or short contracts for tax offenders, no sign and Trades...

It's the only thing currently in the discussion, that has any semblance of having some parity implications, ie Dallas and Lakers can't use S&T option to get a deal done (No marion) or sign people with MLE (Atleast a full version).

In my view, the stuff about competitive parity was always just a PR charade. It's not like the NBA wants a Charlotte-Minnesota final either. So I think the owners would sooner drop those small system wrinkles than give up an extra dime of BRI, personally.

[dhackett1565]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Everyone knows union takes 50-50. Comes to this: Will owners give them crumbs on MLE for taxpayers, sign-trade, escrow, etc., for deal?

I think that hits the nail on the head. And the system issues are so minor that it basically comes down to whether the owners want to let the union save the tiniest bit of face and just get a deal done, or if they'd rather drag this out for a while longer.

I actually hope the owners give in a little bit in BRI, and keep system issues in...stuff like mini or short contracts for tax offenders, no sign and Trades...

It's the only thing currently in the discussion, that has any semblance of having some parity implications, ie Dallas and Lakers can't use S&T option to get a deal done (No marion) or sign people with MLE (Atleast a full version).

In my view, the stuff about competitive parity was always just a PR charade. It's not like the NBA wants a Charlotte-Minnesota final either. So I think the owners would sooner drop those small system wrinkles than give up an extra dime of BRI, personally.

That's true for all of it but the escrow - I expect the owners will push to get a larger escrow percentage - it will be absolutely essential if the rumors of maintaining a 58 million hard cap are true. They will likely need to hold back 30% or more just to keep salaries in check. In each of the past two agreements, the spending exceeded the escrow at least once, and by a lot more when the BRI split was at 55% - now that it is at 50 or so, the escrow will be especially important.