Boston's "All In" .. MIN-style

shrink · Post #1 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:13 pm

I like BOS-type, "all-in" deals. With no 1st next year, MIN has every incentive to do it.

It's interesting to compare MIN and BOS initial position, and the accumulated assets.

1. Pierce
2. Kevin Garnett = Al Jefferson + two late picks + athletic prospect at the time (Gerald Green) + affordable youth (Gomes, Telfair) + expiring
3. Ray Allen = #5 + 2 year bad Szczerbiak deal
4. Rondo = young prospect PG

Check the comparison:

1. Love
2. Dwight => Derrick Williams (>Al?) + UTA 1st (>) + MEM 1st (>) + Anthony Randolph (>) + Hayward (=) + cap space from Brad Miller amnestied (>)
3. Iguodala = Wes Johnson (<#5) + Webster deal (>Szcz) + Pekovic or Darko(>Szcz)
4. Rubio

Even at comparable prices, MIN still has Beasley leftover. MIN's team is:

Rubio, Ridnour
Iguodala, Ellington
Beasley
Love, Tolliver
Dwight Howard, Darko/Pekovic

Does Dwight stick around with a team like that?

They get every rebound, better defense, scoring options and passing.

Torcher · Post #2 » by **Torcher** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:00 pm

Interesting... but we would have an awful, awful bench and I'm not sure how Dwight would feel about being traded to Orlando to Minnesota. I guess it's a start though.

Biff Cooper · Post #3 » by **Biff Cooper** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:21 pm

KG was 31 when we traded him.
Dwight isn't even 26 yet.

The going price for Dwight should probably be higher than KG.

shrink · Post #4 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:24 pm

Biff Cooper wrote:KG was 31 when we traded him.
Dwight isn't even 26 yet.

The going price for Dwight should probably be higher than KG.

I agree. I think MIN's offer for Dwight > BOS offer for 2008 KG. But is it enough?

This is still a pretty healthy offer which ORL would probably value this way:

#2 pick
cap space - for their lux .. probably save them $15 mil or so.
MEM 1st
UTA 1st
Randolph

My worry is that they say, "You have Love, so we want Love."

Foye · Post #5 » by **Foye** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:25 pm

Biff Cooper wrote:KG was 31 when we traded him.
Dwight isn't even 26 yet.

The going price for Dwight should probably be higher than KG.

KG also was under contract for a few more years. Dwight won't.
My guess is Orlando would want either Love + picks or Williams + Rubio + picks.

NewWolvesOrder · Post #6 » by **NewWolvesOrder** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

Can Taylor even afford such a team?

Krapinsky · Post #7 » by **Krapinsky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:57 pm

Any Howard deal is going to start with them asking for Derrick Williams AND Kevin Love.

Post #8 » by **The J Rocka** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:15 pm

...and taking back Turkoglu assuming Arenas gets the amnesty.

shrink · Post #9 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:48 pm

I don't think they are going to get that, especially with Dwight wanting out. Look at the what LeBron, Melo, Amare and Bosh all went for.

Remember, like Dwight, Garnett was also one of the three most valuable players in the NBA in 2008 .. arguably #1. He had his MVP, his defensive team awards, locked up, a big, a leader.

BOS was still able to say, "Hey, we want KG, but we're keeping Pierce amd Rondo. (Rondo became a star later). And once they traded the #5 away, they didn't send the value for Ray Allen either.

I'll also add that unless you are new here, you'll remember the offers from other teams weren't much better. PHX - "Take want you want, except we're keeping Amare." LAL - "We're keeping Kobe." when BOS said, "we're keeping Pierce," they weren't taking some extreme position.

Krapinsky · Post #10 » by **Krapinsky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:07 pm

shrink wrote:I don't think they are going to get that, especially with Dwight wanting out. Look at the what LeBron, Melo, Amare and Bosh all went for.

Remember, like Dwight, Garnett was also one of the three most valuable players in the NBA in 2008 .. arguably #1. He had his MVP, his defensive team awards, locked up, a big, a leader.

BOS was still able to say, "Hey, we want KG, but we're keeping Pierce amd Rondo. (Rondo became a star later). And once they traded the #5 away, they didn't send the value for Ray Allen either.

I'll also add that unless you are new here, you'll remember the offers from other teams weren't much better. PHX - "Take want you want, except we're keeping Amare." LAL - "We're keeping Kobe." when BOS said, "we're keeping Pierce," they weren't taking some extreme position.

Wanting out is one thing. Wanting MN over Orlando is entirely another - hence we have no leverage. This isn't a Lebron, Melo, Amare, etc. situation because Howard would never say I'm either signing with Minnesota in the offseason or you can trade me. I'm pretty sure he's not going to want to leave the income-tax free state of Florida for the cold winters of minnesota, especially after desiring to play is a larger market.

shrink · Post #11 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:37 pm

"Wanting out" limits ORL's ability to get trade value for him.

Keeping him here would be up to us.

Krapinsky · Post #12 » by **Krapinsky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:41 pm

shrink wrote:"Wanting out" limits ORL's ability to get trade value for him.

Keeping him here would be up to us.

Then that's presuming that we would make a legitimate offer without some sort of guarantee that he would sign here, which is presuming something that would never happen.

shrink · Post #13 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:48 pm

Krapinsky wrote:
shrink wrote:"Wanting out" limits ORL's ability to get trade value for him.

Keeping him here would be up to us.

Then that's presuming that we would make a legitimate offer without some sort of guarantee that he would sign here, which is presuming something that would never happen.

I'm not sure you're getting that it's two steps:

1. Will ORL be able to keep Dwight if he wants out?

If the answer is "no," they will take the best offer they can get from any team.

2. Will MIN make the best offer, if they don't have a guarantee he will re-sign?

That may be a question, but I bet this is negotiated through back-channels ahead of time. It certainly would give him a line-up with a better chance at a ring than what he is stuck with now in ORL.

Finally, I would point out that you can't presume this would never happen without a firm offer. Earlier this year, NJN made a big offer to get Deron Williams. He was shocked by the trade and had made no indication he would re-sign with the Nets, but NJN made their offer in the same situation, hoping they could convince him.

Krapinsky · Post #14 » by **Krapinsky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:58 pm

shrink wrote:
Krapinsky wrote:
shrink wrote:"Wanting out" limits ORL's ability to get trade value for him.

Keeping him here would be up to us.

Then that's presuming that we would make a legitimate offer without some sort of guarantee that he would sign here, which is presuming something that would never happen.

I'm not sure you're getting that it's two steps:

1. Will ORL be able to keep Dwight if he wants out?

If the answer is "no," they will take the best offer they can get from any team.

2. Will MIN make the best offer, if they don't have a guarantee he will re-sign?

That may be a question, but I bet this is negotiated through back-channels ahead of time. It certainly would give him a line-up with a better chance at a ring than what he is stuck with now in ORL.

Finally, I would point out that you can't presume this would never happen without a firm offer. Earlier this year, NJN made a big offer to get Deron Williams. He was shocked by the trade and had made no indication he would re-sign with the Nets, but NJN made their offer in the same situation, hoping they could convince him.

Step 2 isn't a step, because it's a non-possibility. If we did that it would be an outrage.

NJ had the leverage of being in a big market, with a new building, with Jay-Z as a minority owner. Considering those things, NJ had reasons to be confident and take on some risk. MN doing something like that would be so risky and laughable that Wojanowski's head would explode before he could write the article.

shrink · Post #15 » by **shrink** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:10 pm

shrink wrote:Rubio, Ridnour
Iguodala, Ellington
Beasley
Love, Tolliver
Dwight Howard, Darko/Pekovic

Does Dwight stick around with a team like that?

They get every rebound, better defense, scoring options and passing.

So you say, that's a "non-possibility" and it would "never happen?"

I'm not as 100% sure as you.

Guidus88 · Post #16 » by **Guidus88** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:14 pm

you cant compare iguodala with ray allen...

shrink · Post #17 » by **shrink** » Thu Dec 1, 2011 11:19 pm

blah blah blah, chris Paul, New York, blah blah blah

... but I'm focuing on this:

Yahoo wrote: Paul has reached out to Orlando Magic center Dwight Howard recently, encouraging Howard to find a way for the two to play together, sources told Yahoo! Sports. That would be a difficult scenario for the Knicks to make happen.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=y ... ade_120111

We could do that.

Esohny · Post #18 » by **Esohny** » Thu Dec 1, 2011 11:25 pm

He means "play together in a glamor market."

shrink · Post #19 » by **shrink** » Thu Dec 1, 2011 11:37 pm

Esohny wrote:He means "play together in a glamor market."

You're probably right, but the NBA's last two biggest marketing superstars have been in Minneapolis and Cleveland.

So who's on the list of teams that could feasibly carry enough trade value and financial resources to do it?

LAC? OKC? MIN? Anyone else?

moss_is_1 · Post #20 » by **moss_is_1** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 1:38 am

If both Dwight and CP3 demanded to be traded....we would have the best chance to trade for them, outside of LAC..now would they want to come here? pry not..be once we got them here we could realistically have CP3, Love, and Dwight. That would be better then heats big 3 because of the fit, and the fact that Love/Howard would be the best rebounding tandem..ever?

Rubio(3,480,120) + Webster(5,256,000) + Randolph(2,911,231) + Pekovic(4,595,000) + Tolly($2,050,000) + Lazar(1,097,520) + Utah 1st + Memphis 1st = ~$19,000,000 for Cp3($16,359,805)+Ariza($6,790,640)(taking a negative deal?) = ~$23,000,000

Derrick Williams(3,955,400) + Wes Johnson(4,006,080) + Brad Miller(4,752,000) + Darko(4,776,500) + Beasley(6,262,347) + Ridnour($3,680,000) = ~$26.8M for Dwight($18,091,770) + Hedo($11,015,850) = ~$29,000,000

That would just completely gut our roster.lol

CP3/Malcolm Lee
Ariza/Ellington
Turkoglu/?
Love/?
Dwight/?

We could probably sign some guys to the min...but yeah....

/pipedreams