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Lockout Over!!! Principal Agreement Reached on 11/26

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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#181 » by mkwest » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:35 am

Stern: Owners' revised offer includes a possible 72-game season starting Dec. 15, David Stern said. If players don't accept this deal, then the reset offer will be a BRI of 47/53 and a flex cap. "We have made our revised proposal and we're not planning to make another one" A 72 game season would end about a week later than normal. Stern said that the NBA is "through negotiating." "We have done our best." Stern is confident the owners will approve the deal if the players do.

Silver: The changes will allow teams to be more competitive and for players to have better chance at winning rings over time. The system would allow teams to be successful in smaller markets as well. "This will be a better league for the players, the teams and the fans."


Also, MLE for taxpaying teams is now allegedly bumped up to $3M/yr for 3 years.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#182 » by Det the Threat » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:37 am

Pretty intelligent move by Stern.

Now all the pressure is back on the players and they'd look pretty bad not putting it up for a vote to the players.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#183 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:21 pm

I think the the fundamental problem is deep enough that PR moves will make little difference.

The previous CBA was simply untenable to the owners, after everything was said and done they would rather not play, then play under a similar CBA again. The players' perspective is obviously quite different- they would have been happy to play under the old CBA. There was a huge gulf between the 2 sides, one that everyone knew might not be resolved even in the best of circumstances (which they haven't been.)

I'm sure the players are pissed off about such a cut in the MLE, as it was a very good salary for those good-but-not great impact guys whose options would be a lot smaller under the owner-proposed CBA. At the same time, I wonder if the MLE has become too much of a weapon for the rich to get richer every offseason. It's not a black or white issue though.

I generally am on players' sides in these sorts of conflicts, but the previous salary cap was pretty loose in many different regards, from Bird rule to MLE to luxury tax. But the owners wanted to significantly reduce BRI and cap flexibility, which is understandably a difficult pill to swallow for the players.

In the best of circumstances, there would be enough transparency and cooperation that both sides could cut that bitter pill in half and each take a piece. But fear (moreso than greed) prevents that from happening in a huge negotiation like this.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#184 » by mkwest » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:52 pm

richard

Q: when are the 30 reps going to simply poll their teammates to know where a vote would really end up?

Alex Kennedy


A: Team representatives have been in contact with their teammates. I honestly believe that if the NBPA allowed every player to vote on this deal, the rank-and-file would accept it. However, I don’t think that’s the right decision. Players want to get back on the court and end this process, but they haven’t been following the talks and don’t understand what they’re agreeing to[/b]. I get texts and calls every day from players who don’t understand all of the issues being discussed. Even entering last meeting, the majority of team reps wanted to accept the NBA’s offer, but backed down after Billy Hunter wrote down all of the reasons this is a bad deal on a dry erase board. Players trust their team reps because they’ve been following the talks and understand what’s on the line. The only way we’ll see the rank-and-file get to vote on this deal is if the majority of team reps want to accept when they meet on Monday.

Alex Kennedy, HoopsWorld


Hmmm....
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#185 » by mkwest » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:03 am

madmaxmedia wrote:I think the the fundamental problem is deep enough that PR moves will make little difference.

The previous CBA was simply untenable to the owners, after everything was said and done they would rather not play, then play under a similar CBA again. The players' perspective is obviously quite different- they would have been happy to play under the old CBA. There was a huge gulf between the 2 sides, one that everyone knew might not be resolved even in the best of circumstances (which they haven't been.)

I'm sure the players are pissed off about such a cut in the MLE, as it was a very good salary for those good-but-not great impact guys whose options would be a lot smaller under the owner-proposed CBA. At the same time, I wonder if the MLE has become too much of a weapon for the rich to get richer every offseason. It's not a black or white issue though.

I generally am on players' sides in these sorts of conflicts, but the previous salary cap was pretty loose in many different regards, from Bird rule to MLE to luxury tax. But the owners wanted to significantly reduce BRI and cap flexibility, which is understandably a difficult pill to swallow for the players.

In the best of circumstances, there would be enough transparency and cooperation that both sides could cut that bitter pill in half and each take a piece. But fear (moreso than greed) prevents that from happening in a huge negotiation like this.


From reading new tidbits about what was in the owners' proposal, you can understand the hesitancy from the players. When the owners give something back, they take something else away to compensate. Dan Gilbert said awhile back that a deal could get done if the union would trust him. There's very very little trust and the union feels that anything coming from the owners is laced with trickery. With much of the union supposedly not knowing what is going on just makes matters worse for their stance. They want to be united, but confusion and fear can work against them.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#186 » by madmaxmedia » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:03 am

I do agree that the owners have really been playing hardball, and for sure understand the hesitancy of the players.

I guess I stop short of outright blaming the owners, although if the season is lost I do put it more on them. You have to strike the right balance between all these factors, and from what I've read I am concerned the owners' latest proposal goes too far the other way.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#187 » by mkwest » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:31 am

Players to discuss NBA's offer Monday; decertifying worries Stern

With NBA commissioner David Stern claiming the owners are done negotiating and threatening to drastically worsen their offer if it is not accepted by the players, Monday's meeting will likely determine the fate of the 2011-12 season. Players are faced with a host of unappealing options, from taking the proposal to a league-wide vote, to the lengthy legal battles that could come by way of decertification of the union or disclaimer of interest of the union, to continuing to negotiate with the owners. While a consensus of some kind won't be reached until Monday's meeting, one union source said the NBPA executive committee is expected to have a meeting Sunday night as a precursor.

There were indications Saturday night that the committee was in favor of taking the disclaiming interest route, a process by which executive director Billy Hunter would submit a letter to Stern saying the NBPA was no longer the bargaining unit for the players. Antitrust lawsuits potentially worth treble damages on existing player salaries could be filed soon thereafter, with players sending the immediate message that they would be willing to lose the season. Negotiations would continue with the pressure shifting to the NBA, but not before the structure of the union and role of lead negotiator would first have to be determined.


When players, who received 57 percent of basketball-related income in the last collective bargaining agreement, informally lowered their BRI offer from 52.5 percent to a 50-50 split on Tuesday, there was an expectation that they'd receive significant system concessions in return. But the owners didn't move on their proposal nearly as much as the union hoped, and NBPA officials were left privately fuming once again in these negotiations that have already been widely considered a lopsided victory for the league.


The NBA in August filed a lawsuit with the NLRB, asserting not only that the lockout is legal but also that decertification of the union is not and would result in the possible voiding of existing player contracts. All of which has Stern concerned.

"Yes, I am worried," Stern said, "because they're talking up this thing called decertification which is not a winning strategy on the one hand. On the second hand, it'll take three months to teach them it's not a winning strategy, which would not augur well for the season.


Sam Amick, Sports Illustrated
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Playing the PR Game 

Post#188 » by Ranma » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:39 pm

I've been quite critical of David Stern over the years for his culpability in the degradation of the game by referring to him as the NBA's pimp when he should be its caretaker, however, I always recognized the great things he did for the league and game as well. His high point undoubtedly was during the golden age of basketball during the 80's era spearheaded by the efforts of the Magic/Bird rivalry, but it can be argued that his emphasis on promoting stars--even at the expense of teams--during the late and post Jordan era of the 90's has brought us to this point where players who've been given too much are now reluctant to accept an offer that still gives them a better deal than what the arguably more deserving NFL players get.

While there is plenty of blame on both the owners and players for the current mess the NBA is dealing with, it should be clear to anyone by now that the owners fronted by Stern are the undisputed winners in the court of public opinion over the players and their advisors (agents, union leaders, etc.). Just take a look at recent turn of events:

1) Former NBA greats, Bill Russell and Magic Johnson, come out in defense of Stern being accused of being a racist "plantation owner" by Bryant Gumbel and NBPA lawyer, Jeffrey Kessler:

CBSSports.com wire (11/9/11)
Players such as Johnson and Bill Russell called the league office to support Stern, who is leading owners in a bitter dispute with the players.

"It was David Stern who took this league worldwide. And so those guys know it was because of David Stern and what he was able to do," Johnson said.

Johnson recalled it was Stern who offered him a place in the 1992 NBA All-Star game, even over some players' wishes after he had retired the previous November because of HIV. And it was Stern who included Johnson that summer on the Dream Team that won the Olympic gold medal.

And it was Stern, he said, who called him after Johnson's comments about Thomas in his book ignited a public feud between the longtime friends, urging Johnson to work it out.

"He has always done what's right for both the players and owners. I'm going to have to say this personally, David, he didn't have to do that. That's the type of commissioner he is.

"He always is looking out for the players and what's best for the league, and I disagree with anybody who says he's trying to be a plantation owner. It's ridiculous we're even talking about it."

Magic Johnson backs Stern, says he's no racist


2) Another NBA legend, Michael Jordan, is now a hard-line advocate of 47% BRI for the players albeit as a self-interested owner of a ballclub.

3) Yet another prestigious NBA alumnus, Rick Barry, and notably former NHL player, Bill Guerin, both don't think that it's worth the fight for NBA players:

Nicki Jhabvala, SI.com (11/10/11)
Whether or not he thinks David Stern and the owners are being fair:

“Yeah. These guys are making so much freaking money, they have the best deal of anybody in sports and they’re saying, ‘Guys, look, we screwed up. We gave you a deal that was so freaking good but times have changed, the economy changed, and we can’t survive with this deal. We have 22 of our 30 teams losing money.’ And you know sometimes they insult people. I know for a fact there was an independent party that went out and did all of the research to get all the documentation for the dollar values and what the teams are doing. One of the top executives in the NBA signed off on it and he signs off on it and then the NBA Players Association, Billy Hunter, is saying we don’t believe these numbers.”

HOF’er Rick Barry: Billy Hunter is bad for NBA


Mac Engel, Stat-Telegram (10/19/11)
"It's not worth it. Get a deal done," former Dallas Stars forward Bill Guerin said during a phone call last week.

There was not a single NHL player during the Great Lockout of 2004-05 who was a bigger proponent of the union's fight than this man. No one believed in the cause more than Guerin, and to hear him admit this is a bit stunning.

"I learned a big lesson: It's not a partnership. It's their league, and you are going to play when they want," he said.

Today, Guerin has hindsight and his experience serves as a giant caution to any player who thinks losing a game, much less an entire season, to this lockout is a good idea. His message is simple: Get what you can; start playing; you are not going to win what you think.

"It is not worth it to any of them to burn games or to burn an entire year. Burning a year was ridiculous," Guerin said. "It wasn't worth me giving up $9 million a year, or 82 games plus the playoffs, then having a crappy year and being bought out.... Guys in the NBA making $15 million or however much better think long and hard about this."

Bill Guerin to NBA players: It's not worth it


4) Agents continue to be unhappy with NBPA leadership, this time criticizing the lack of details to come from them:

Image


5) On top of that, there is criticism that the players and NBPA are panicked, misinformed or maybe even deceitful in their latest communication about the owners' latest offer:

Howard Beck, New York Times (11/13/11)
In the absence of official documentation — neither the league nor the union released the proposal publicly — the rumors have prevailed. “The revised proposal is worse than the last offer,” Nazr Mohammed, a 13-year veteran, wrote Saturday on Twitter.

That sentiment was echoed by several agents and players. But a review of the N.B.A.’s previous proposal and the revised offer does not support the claim. In many areas, the league improved its offer, albeit modestly.

Rumors Drown Truth on N.B.A.’s Proposal
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NBA Powerpoint of CBA Proposal Details 

Post#189 » by Ranma » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:33 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4zaisIRxQ[/youtube]
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#190 » by mkwest » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:25 am

Copy of NBA CBA Proposal 11/6/11 via New York Times.

- BYC eliminated in trades except in S&T deals.
- Tax Rates for salary increases above tax level:
    $0-5M = $1.50 per $1
    $5-10M = $1.75 per $1
    $10-15M = $2.50 per $1
    $15-20M = $3.25 per $1
    Tax rates increase by $.50 for ever $5M over tax level.
- 5 year contracts for Bird players; 4 years for Non-Birds
- 4 year rookie extensions; 5 year extension for designated max salary player (1 per team at a time)
- 4 year veteran extension (3 new years if signed during last year of original contract)
- 5.5% raises for Bird/Early Bird Players; 3.5% increase for Non-Birds
- Waived players salaries stretched over double length of original contract
- No S&T's for taxpayers; 4 yr contracts w/ 3.5% raises for S&T's; No Extend-and-Trades (Paul, Howard or Williams). Players must wait 6 months before extending with new team.
- Offer Sheet period shorted to 3 days
- Cash paid in trades to be a maximum of $3M annually (instead of per deal)
- 10 year CBA with mutual opt-outs after 7 years
- Amnesty: each team permitted to waive 1 player (contracted in last CBA) prior to any season of the CBA. Players salary removed for cap and tax purposes.
- Max Salaries:
    0-3 years: 15% of Soft Cap
    4-6 years: 20% of Soft Cap
    7+ years: 25% of Soft Cap
    105% of prior contract rule is eliminated
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#191 » by mkwest » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:49 am

I'm not sure what would happen if a player was designated to the 5 year contract and traded later on to a team who already had a 5 year designated player. Would one of those players lose their status? If so, which one?

Obviously, Blake is the guy that we would want to designate as the 5 year contract player. Gordon is up for a contract first, is he automatically given a 4 year deal? Can Gordon be given a 5 year deal and then Blake be given a 5 year deal the next season as Gordon's contract would then only have 4 years remaining?

No E&T deals makes it hard for teams to try to acquire Dwight Howard, Chris Paul or Deron Williams before July. Would a team feel that it is worth the risk, knowing that they could each walk at the end of the season? We'd easily give up expirings and probably a young player or 2, but would we give up the Minny Pick?

There are a lot of questions, but the union does in fact plan on amending this proposal before taking a vote and returning it back to the owners.
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Kobe apparently willing to accept owners' latest proposal 

Post#192 » by Ranma » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:53 am

The talking heads for ESPN's Lakers blog put up a video reporting that Kobe Bryant is willing to accept the current deal proposed by the owners due to the combination of his competitiveness in going for a sixth ring with a small window of opportunity left for him, the realization that the players aren't likely to do much better than what they are currently offered, and possibly to alleviate some of the burden for his buddy Derek Fisher.

The Forum

In this week's edition of The Forum, Brian Kamenetzy, Andy Kamenetzy, and Dave McMenamin talk about Kobe Bryant's reported willingness to take a 50-50 split.

With Kobe willing to break ranks and mkwest citing the HoopsWorld chat report that the silent majority of players were willing to a accept a marginally worse deal than what is currently offered, it looks like the NBA lockout will end tomorrow. However, let's not discount the ability of the vocal minority among the NBPA to throw a monkey wrench into things as we've seen with the lack of full disclosure of information provided to its membership, the delay of putting proposals to a full vote, or the decertification movement coming from agents.
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B-list issues could have us all beside ourselves 

Post#193 » by Ranma » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:00 am

Some interesting things to consider for later today:

Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports (11/14/11)
The owners are offering a 50-50 split of revenue, but the possible elimination of two teams would cause the BRI to be adjusted with a smaller percentage for the players, sources said. The NBA also wants to be able to contract teams without consulting the union.
...

There’s a growing belief that Stern doesn’t have the ownership support to pass the very proposal he’s been pushing all weekend, and that owners would ultimately kill this deal with the list of non-negotiable B-list issues the players would oppose. This way, the league can say it worked hard to cut a fairer deal with players, but in the end, the owners will get the draconian ‘reset’ proposal that many of them have wanted all along.

“A lot of teams – more all the time – don’t like the deal on the table,” one high-ranking league official said.
...

The union doesn’t believe the NBA is willing to accept amendments to the owners’ offer on Monday, something the union’s executive committee and team representatives might be willing to trade with the league in exchange for a full membership vote on the proposal.

‘B-list’ issues could cause trouble in NBA talks


I can't believe I discounted and plum forgot to mention those hardliners among the owners who could still foul things up. We'll see if these B-list issues serve as the nail in the coffin for the 2011-12 NBA season. Howard Bryant mentions in his Parting Shots video segment for ESPN's Sports Reporters that the NBA is now "swimming in bad franchises".

I wonder which two teams the league has targeted for possible contraction? My guess is New Orleans and Memphis. The Grizzlies may seem like an odd choice over the Bobcats but I think Stern & Co. still see untapped potential in the hoops crazy market of North Carolina, plus having Michael Jordan as owner should never be discounted. Despite the organization's recent success and the up-and-coming roster it has, Memphis is a team that will have trouble drawing particularly when they aren't winning games.

Owner Michael Heisley, a shady character to begin with, has complained that he hasn't been able to build a winner because fans haven't been coming out even as he provides discounted prices at the same level as a night out at the movies, which makes it all the more suspicious that he gave Rudy Gay such an exorbitant contract. Now he has to re-sign Marc Gasol and fill-out at least a third of the roster with approximately $10 million of cap space assuming he qualifies all pending contracts. It just sounds to me like he's trying to maintain the value of the franchise in his continued efforts to sell it.
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Seriously, what is wrong with the NBPA? 

Post#194 » by Ranma » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:51 pm

Not a very good sign of credibility for NBPA leadership when the rank and file actually have to rely on their adversaries for full disclosure of the terms they are all supposedly fighting together for. Having such info would at least give each player time to do some prep work before today's crucial meeting.

Image


David Stern, NBA Commissioner (11/13/11)

...there has been a great deal of inaccurate information published about the NBA’s proposal in the press and over social media. While we recognize the right of any player to disagree with the proposal, there should be no confusion over its actual terms -- so we have attached it here for your review.

Collective Bargaining Memo to NBA Players
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#195 » by mkwest » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:43 am

Things are looking more grim than ever with the NBAPA filing a disclaimer of interest and essentially disbanding the union.

Players' new legal leaders speak

Since the decertification didn't work for the NFL, how much better is this disclaimer?

Boies: Well remember, in the NFL case, the disclaimer ... although it was ruled valid by the district court, was never really decided by the court of appeals. The point, too, in the NFL case, was whether or not there could be an injunction. As you heard in there, we are not going to seek an injunction. While we're going to go back and we're going to look at legal options, you heard Billy say that one of the things the players are not going to do is go seek an injunction here.

Why not?

Boies: Well, my view, and this is one that Jeffrey and I may have a different view on, is that under the Norris-Laguardia Act it's very difficult to get an injunction. That doesn't mean you can't have damages. And in fact, the whole point of the Norris-Laguardia Act was to stop injunctions and force these kinds of disputes into the damage arena.

Even if you could get an injunction -- let's say Jeffrey's wrong and I'm right on this -- it would be, obviously, a drawn-out process. And I think what the players are focusing on right now is what is the fastest way to get this resolved.

Kessler: If you look at it from a player's standpoint, collective bargaining has totally failed. So rather than exercise their labor law rights to futility, they've decided to free up all players to exert their antitrust rights to triple damages. And we think -- not we, the players -- think that is the best protection for NBA players going forward.

ESPN
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#196 » by mkwest » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:07 am

mkwest wrote:- Max Salaries:
    0-3 years: 15% of Soft Cap
    4-6 years: 20% of Soft Cap
    7+ years: 25% of Soft Cap
    105% of prior contract rule is eliminated


None of this may end up mattering at all, but these figures for max salaries could work in our favor if they somehow stick. If the season was lost, we'd likely have the 1st (Minny) and 5th (Own) best odds in the 2012 draft. If we ended up letting our free-agents walk (including DJ) and amnestied Mo, we'd be able to keep our draft picks, sign both Dwight & Paul and then re-sign Gordon. Sound like a long shot? It certainly is, but it could be a possibility if things all lined up. The rest of the league would be pissed as hell. We'd be getting Miami type heat. Ryan Gomes could start and it would still be ok.
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#197 » by mkwest » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:50 am

NBA union letter sent to players Monday

TO: ALL PLAYERS

FROM: G. WILLIAM HUNTER, DEREK FISHER AND THE NBPA EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

DATE: November 14, 2011

RE: NBPA DISCLAIMER

Today, by unanimous vote of the executive committee and player representatives, the National Basketball Players Association disclaimed its status as your collective bargaining representative. As a result, we will now function as a trade association to assist and support NBA players, but we will no longer engage in collective bargaining with the NBA owners. The Players Association will instead dedicate itself to supporting individual NBA players in the assertion of your non-labor rights to be free of any illegal restrictions on competition for your services.

For two and a half years and through more than 50 collective bargaining sessions, we sat at the table and attempted to negotiate a fair labor agreement with the owners. Last week, with the issuance of yet another ultimatum - a take it or leave it final offer of a long-term agreement with unacceptable terms - Commissioner Stern and the owners left us with no other option. It has become clear to us that we have exhausted our rights under the labor laws, and continuing in that forum would not be in the best interests of the players.

With no labor union in place, it is our sincere hope that the NBA will immediately end its now illegal boycott and finally open the 2011-12 season. Individual teams are free to negotiate with free agents for your services. If the owners choose to continue their present course of action, it is our view that they subject themselves to significant antitrust liability.

Today's decision was not made lightly and holds enormous consequences, including among other things, the following:

As mentioned, we cannot engage in collective bargaining with the owners.

We can no longer assert any labor law rights on behalf of players, and we will be withdrawing our unfair labor practice charge before the National Labor Relations Board.

We can no longer prosecute individual grievances on behalf of players. We will communicate in the future regarding the status of any pending grievances or appeals.

We can no longer regulate agents. Our status in regulating agents derives from our authority under the National Labor Relations Act as the players' bargaining representative. With that status ended, likewise our agent regulation program is terminated.

The NBPA will always be here to assist individual players in asserting your rights outside of the labor laws and to improve business conditions of all professional basketball players in the NBA. So, for example, among other things, we will seek to:

Engage in group licensing activities;

Create opportunities for players to enhance off-court income;

Enable and encourage players to engage in charitable and civic activities to benefit both your fellow citizens and your communities;

Serve as a clearinghouse for information related to your services as NBA players; and

Otherwise do all we can to promote, protect, and enhance your careers as professional basketball players.

We will continue to correspond with you on business matters on a regular basis, and our New York headquarters will remain open. Please feel free to contact Billy or the NBPA legal staff with any questions or concerns you may have. We urge you very strongly as a legal matter to please not make any public or private comments on these matters. You may refer any questions to the NBPA legal staff.

As always, thank you for your support.

via USA Today
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#198 » by mkwest » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:58 pm

Players vs NBA class-action antitrust lawsuit filed in Oakland set for court on Feb. 29, 2012. Court official says date could be moved up.

Marc J. Spears



Court date for C. Anthony vs. NBA set for Feb. 29. Players' attorney David Boies is hopeful the process moves much quicker than that.

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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#199 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:36 pm

Here's a question I have- Which CBA deal is worse from the player's side- the current NFL CBA, or the last CBA offered to the NBA players?

Keep in mind that there is a hard cap in the NFL, most all contracts are not guaranteed (though there is often a guaranteed portion in the form of a signing bonus), and the revenue share is 50%. Also keep in mind that average NFL career is shorter than average NBA career length (3.5 vs. 4.8 seasons.) Also keep in mind that the NFL is more popular than the NBA, I don't take NBA owners claims as a given but I think NFL is more financially successful.

At this point I blame the owners more than I blame the players. But just wanted to compare against the other sport which had labor negotiations this year. It might be said that the NFLPA gave too much away a few years back, setting the stage for the current CBA. But I think even the last NBA offer is better than what the NFL players are getting. Ultimately, this is not about right or wrong, fair or unfair, than it is simply about what you can negotiate.
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Det the Threat
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Re: CBA/Lockout News & Discussion 

Post#200 » by Det the Threat » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:40 pm

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
NBA and players resumed talks on Tuesday to try and end the lockout before the cancellation of Christmas games, two sources told Y! Sports.
2 minutes ago


WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Talks were expected to continue today, sources said, and one league source tells Y!: "We should know more by later this evening."
1 minute ago


Let's see what this produces.
The journalists have been writing that they'd need an agreement on Friday, if they want to start the season on Christmas.

I'm not really hopeful for that...

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