Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

[therealbig3]

Isiah is better. It's hard to fathom him having ZERO NBA Finals appearances with Dirk and Finley or Amare and prime Marion on his team.

Pretty easy for me to imagine...I still see the Suns getting trounced by the Spurs come playoff time...and it would be even worse than with Nash, because Isiah isn't as good as Nash offensively.

[therealbig3]

I think these threads just reveal either

a) a lot of nostalgia for older players (not just Isiah, but Stockton, Payton, Frazier, Kidd, etc.)

or

b) a lot of underrating of Nash

There really isn't anything that Isiah is clearly better than Nash at, and yes, I'm including defense (Isiah played for a great defensive team, so whatever weaknesses he had were covered up). Nash is better as a scorer, better as a playmaker, runs a more efficient offense, has more impact by every metric, etc.

Nash is a legitimate franchise level player, a guy who at his peak has true MVP-level impact.

Isiah wasn't on that level.

[cpower]

I think these threads just reveal either

a) a lot of nostalgia for older players (not just Isiah, but Stockton, Payton, Frazier, Kidd, etc.)

or

b) a lot of underrating of Nash

There really isn't anything that Isiah is clearly better than Nash at, and yes, I'm including defense (Isiah played for a great defensive team, so whatever weaknesses he had were covered up). Nash is better as a scorer, better as a playmaker, runs a more efficient offense, has more impact by every metric, etc.

Nash is a legitimate franchise level player, a guy who at his peak has true MVP-level impact.

Isiah wasn't on that level.

Isiah has the wills and he was able to perform when it's needed. I cant see Nash leading a team to beat MJ, I just cant.
Isiah was the type of star that shines in the post season under the toughest circumstances.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcGqJ1tAClw[/youtube]

[therealbig3]

I think these threads just reveal either

a) a lot of nostalgia for older players (not just Isiah, but Stockton, Payton, Frazier, Kidd, etc.)

or

b) a lot of underrating of Nash

There really isn't anything that Isiah is clearly better than Nash at, and yes, I'm including defense (Isiah played for a great defensive team, so whatever weaknesses he had were covered up). Nash is better as a scorer, better as a playmaker, runs a more efficient offense, has more impact by every metric, etc.

Nash is a legitimate franchise level player, a guy who at his peak has true MVP-level impact.

Isiah wasn't on that level.

Isiah has the wills and he was able to perform when it's needed. I cant see Nash leading a team to beat MJ, I just cant.
Isiah was the type of star that shines in the post season under the toughest circumstances.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcGqJ1tAClw[/youtube]

If Nash had the better team, and MJ basically had to do everything himself, I can absolutely see Nash leading a team past MJ. He led his teams past Kobe's twice, with Kobe playing at MJ-esque levels (ok, maybe not MJ-esque, but he was playing extremely well). No matter how good a superstar is, if his team is simply outmatched (in MJ's case, they had the talent, but Pippen needed to play well, and he was mentally not ready yet), there's only so much that superstar can do.

And everything else you mentioned is just straight narrative, that I can easily make about Nash. And Isiah struggled plenty of times in the playoffs, they're just forgotten about.

[Doctor MJ]

If you want to win championships - Isiah Thomas
If you want to win fans - Steve Nash

If you want to get overrated forever - be an offensive star on the single greatest playoff defense of the past 40 years

[JNelson43]

Nash sure is debated to death here.

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

I agree. Nash's MVPs are some of the most criticized out there with more than a few fans believing that he deserved one or none. Yet somehow I don't think that Nash advocates would accept that as a valid objection... so why would accolades and popular opinion make a difference for him or Isiah here?

But I'd go with Nash too. Even if you want to look at whatever differences there might be in pace and offensive style and Nash being maximized in his system, I think Nash is still the better playmaker. And he's definitely the better shooter, and its honestly not that close. Thomas has some toughness and will on his side, that helps him. Better defender. But I don't think its enough to put him over Nash, its kind of close but not THAT close.

[ronnymac2]

Nash sure is debated to death here.

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

I agree. Nash's MVPs are some of the most criticized out there with more than a few fans believing that he deserved one or none. Yet somehow I don't think that Nash advocates would accept that as a valid objection... so why would accolades and popular opinion make a difference for him or Isiah here?

But I'd go with Nash too. Even if you want to look at whatever differences there might be in pace and offensive style and Nash being maximized in his system, I think Nash is still the better playmaker. And he's definitely the better shooter, and its honestly not that close. Thomas has some toughness and will on his side, that helps him. Better defender. But I don't think its enough to put him over Nash, its kind of close but not THAT close.

I actually didn't mean it like that, as I believe Nash deserved those MVPs. He deserved more actually. lol

My argument was that MVP voting doesn't order who the best actual players are. MVP voting gives fantastic approximations of the contemporary train of thought, which is useful, but when straining who the actual best players were in a given year- separating 1 from 2, 2 from 3, etc.- MVP voting isn't exactly the first thing one should look at.

[Laimbeer]

This is a miniature Wilt/Russ debate for me.

[Brenice]

It's funny that people act like Isiah had nothing to do with Detroit winning back to back, while sandwiched between the Bird/Magic era and the MJ era. Had to defeat at some point in their careers Bird, Magic, and Jordan. All these excuses, the Celtics and Lakers were too old while the Bulls were too young. Not acknowledging that Isiah was only a couple years younger than Bird and Magic, and a couple years older than Jordan.

While Nash didn't defeat anyone in even a WCF. All praise to Nash. He is the greatest PG of all-time.
It's not is fault that the Suns don't defend or rebound. He is the leader, but only on offense. A point guard doesn't impact defense. Them repeatedly not advancing is not his fault. All praise to Nash.

Wait, Isaih wasn't the leader of the Pistons, no more so than Dumars. Isiah was not the offensive threat Nash was. Those Pistons was one of the most stacked squads ever. That's the only reason he won anything. Those Pistons were more stacked than Russell's Celtics, Bird's Celtics, and the Showtime Lakers.

The fact is, Nash is not the leader Isiah was. Those Pistons were molded in Zeke's image/style/skillset. The same as Nash. One image/style/skillset won, twice, with 1 Finals MVP. The other won nothing but 2 MVP's(regular season).

Dumars was almost = to Zeke in team success, but Amare and his 37 points against Duncan was nowhere near as important to the Suns success as Nash. Making it seem that they think Dumars was co-captain with Zeke. Quiet Joe Dumars. All the Pistons followed their leader (yes it was poor sportsmanship) off the court without shaking hands, after losing to the Bulls. Those were not Dumars team. Not Laimbeer. Not Rodman or Microwave. Not Daly either. They were Zeke's. The answer is Zeke and it ain't as close as the stat-pushers think it is.

[JNelson43]

Nash sure is debated to death here.

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

I agree. Nash's MVPs are some of the most criticized out there with more than a few fans believing that he deserved one or none. Yet somehow I don't think that Nash advocates would accept that as a valid objection... so why would accolades and popular opinion make a difference for him or Isiah here?

But I'd go with Nash too. Even if you want to look at whatever differences there might be in pace and offensive style and Nash being maximized in his system, I think Nash is still the better playmaker. And he's definitely the better shooter, and its honestly not that close. Thomas has some toughness and will on his side, that helps him. Better defender. But I don't think its enough to put him over Nash, its kind of close but not THAT close.

I actually didn't mean it like that, as I believe Nash deserved those MVPs. He deserved more actually. lol

My argument was that MVP voting doesn't order who the best actual players are. MVP voting gives fantastic approximations of the contemporary train of thought, which is useful, but when straining who the actual best players were in a given year- separating 1 from 2, 2 from 3, etc.- MVP voting isn't exactly the first thing one should look at.

Oh I agree, all I'm saying is that all you're actually understanding is the contemporary train of thought, and I'm pointing out that a decent portion of the fans today don't think Nash deserved those MVPs. Does that somehow mean he didn't? Of course not. If a Nash supporter thinks that Nash is underrated by these people today, then its just as easy for Isiah supporters to say that he was underrated by his contemporaries.

[Rapcity_11]

This is a miniature Wilt/Russ debate for me.

Nash is closer to being Russ than Isiah is...

[Laimbeer]

This is a miniature Wilt/Russ debate for me.

Nash is closer to being Russ than Isiah is...

Russ/Isiah have the rings, Wilt/Nash have the stats.

[prs]

Isiah practically got carried in Detroit's first championship. How do people try to use this as an argument for him?

Wills his team in the playoffs with his .481 TS?

He played well during their 2nd championship but the first clearly shows that it had way more to do with Detroit being very good all around than Isiah being some superstar.

If Nash was 18.2/4.3/8.3 on .481 TS during a championship run people would say the will of god carried him to the finals, and that the other phoenix players are for sure HoFers that completed a nearly impossible task being torn down by the plague that is steve nash.

Isiah does it? Well he clearly willed his team to victory!

[Rapcity_11]

This is a miniature Wilt/Russ debate for me.

Nash is closer to being Russ than Isiah is...

Russ/Isiah have the rings, Wilt/Nash have the stats.

Actually Isiah is the one with the slightly higher volume stats.

Nash is the one with the greater impact. Like Russ.

[Brenice]

My argument was that MVP voting doesn't order who the best actual players are. MVP voting gives fantastic approximations of the contemporary train of thought, which is useful, but when straining who the actual best players were in a given year- separating 1 from 2, 2 from 3, etc.- MVP voting isn't exactly the first thing one should look at.

Nash absolutely deserved the MVP. However, that didn't translate to the better playoff team. The thing with the Suns, that's what they wanted.

I always thought the first 1/2 of the season, the better teams coasted a little. Then picked it up after the all-star break. Then took it to another level during the playoffs, with each advancement going to another level? What does that say? Where does these stats come from making Nash the greatest player? Regular season stat-padding.

[Brenice]

Isiah practically got carried in Detroit's first championship. How do people try to use this as an argument for him?

Wills his team in the playoffs with his .481 TS?

He played well during their 2nd championship but the first clearly shows that it had way more to do with Detroit being very good all around than Isiah being some superstar.

If Nash was 18.2/4.3/8.3 on .481 TS during a championship run people would say the will of god carried him to the finals, and that the other phoenix players are for sure HoFers that completed a nearly impossible task being torn down by the plague that is steve nash.

Isiah does it? Well he clearly willed his team to victory!

Carried? So Amare carried Nash? Is that what happened?

Actually, Isiah was a superstar his whole career. Did Jordan not will his team when he had the flu against Utah? Isiah did the same thing when he severely sprained his ankle against L.A. in game 6 of those finals while scoring 43 points with 8 assists.

If it weren't for being a nuisance and a jerk, he would have been on the Original Dream Team. He definitely should have been. Isiah is not being overrated. He is being underrated.

[JordansBulls]

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

I dunno, the fact that Isiah wasn't taken seriously as an MVP candidate even when his team was the best in the league seems to be a pretty good indicator of how contemporary observers saw him. Let's remember that team success has pretty much always meant drastic overrating of players as MVP candidate. Unseld won an MVP, Jermaine O'Neal finished 3rd in MVP voting. Isiah couldn't even get that going for himself.

Isiah's prime coincided with MJ, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, and Hakeem's. That's 6 guys who would always finish better than you. Unseld nor Jermaine O'neal or hell even Steve Nash are getting in that group for MVP voting.

[prs]

Nash was 23.9/11.3/4.8 on .604 TS during the playoffs that year.

And I think since were discussing Steve Nash for the billionth time you should know what he did to the Mavs in the last 2 games of that series.

What exactly did Isiah do in the playoffs that year?

What legitimate argument does Isiah have over Nash?

"uhh well isiah thomas has rings hes a winner yaaa!!!!! dats why man!!"

Sorry but thats not an argument at all and I don't see anybody on Isiahs side making a legit case for him. Why? because there isn't one.

[Brenice]

What exactly did Isiah do in the playoffs that year?

What legitimate argument does Isiah have over Nash?

"uhh well isiah thomas has rings hes a winner yaaa!!!!! dats why man!!"

Sorry but thats not an argument at all and I don't see anybody on Isiahs side making a legit case for him. Why? because there isn't one.

You want to throw stats, and limit things to "that year" as in 1 year? Trump This!

How about 43 and 9, with 25(NBA Finals Record) of those points coming in 1 quarter after severely spraining an ankle in a game 6 in the 88 Finals.

How about 16 points in 94 seconds of a playoff game.

How about Finals MVP in 1990.

How about 3 time NBA finals participant.

How about 2 time NBA champion.

How about NCAA champion.

How about NCAA Finals MVP.

Defeated Jordan, Magic, and Bird in high level playoff series.

And then there is Steve Nash. What has he done?

[prs]

What exactly did Isiah do in the playoffs that year?

What legitimate argument does Isiah have over Nash?

"uhh well isiah thomas has rings hes a winner yaaa!!!!! dats why man!!"

Sorry but thats not an argument at all and I don't see anybody on Isiahs side making a legit case for him. Why? because there isn't one.

You want to throw stats, and limit things to "that year" as in 1 year? Trump This!

How about 43 and 9, with 25(NBA Finals Record) of those points coming in 1 quarter after severely spraining an ankle in a game 6 in the 88 Finals.

How about 16 points in 94 seconds of a playoff game.

How about Finals MVP in 1990.

How about 3 time NBA finals participant.

How about 2 time NBA champion.

How about NCAA champion.

How about NCAA Finals MVP.

Defeated Jordan, Magic, and Bird in high level playoff series.

And then there is Steve Nash. What has he done?

So 2 games? Nice....

1988 another year where his playoff numbers are yet again underwhelming and they of course lost that series.

You quote me talking about one playoff year then list that year as an accomplishment shortly after. He played poorly in their first championship.

NCAA who cares? were comparing NBA players.

3 times finalist? ok he had a better team than nash.

Finals MVP? Nice wheres his second one? I mean he was the superstar right? Oh wait he only got one of those. Tony Parker has one too, so does Chauncey Billups.

I'm only seeing the Pistons being better than the Suns, which I agree with. Nothing shows that Isiah is a better player than Nash, because well.. he isn't.

In reality Isiah Thomas is Tim Hardaway level, not Steve Nash level.