Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

[JordansBulls]

Boston's improvement had everything to do with their DEFENSE. how does Heinsohn, an extremely poor defender and a mediocre rebounder, make any sort of significant impact on their DEFENSE ? Sam Jones didn't have anything to do with their defense either, and their downfall came on that end of the floor. I don't think change of offensive players made significant impact on their defensive efficiency. clearly it was Russell's doing.

He missed a 1/3 of the season and his teammate won ROY and his other teammate won league mvp, how the hell is that Russell's doing?

In 1969 they lost their 2nd leading scorer in the playoffs in Sam Jones and Russell. That is why they dropped 14 games. It's not like they just lost Russell.

[JordansBulls]

when Suns were healthy they still sucked so that doesn't really change the point. they went at about .250 when Nash was injured so that pretty much means they were garbage when Nash was off the floor. you would have to be Suns fan to know things like that, but when Nash was going to the bench late in the 3rd quarter, they would ALWAYS lose their advantage. it's some small sample of couple games, we're talking about YEARS of consistent results.

Pistons don't win titles without Isiah being there, but even yet Suns could never get there even with Nash who had plenty of help.

[bastillon]

Boston's improvement had everything to do with their DEFENSE. how does Heinsohn, an extremely poor defender and a mediocre rebounder, make any sort of significant impact on their DEFENSE ? Sam Jones didn't have anything to do with their defense either, and their downfall came on that end of the floor. I don't think change of offensive players made significant impact on their defensive efficiency. clearly it was Russell's doing.

He missed a 1/3 of the season and his teammate won ROY and his other teammate won league mvp, how the hell is that Russell's doing?

In 1969 they lost their 2nd leading scorer in the playoffs in Sam Jones and Russell. That is why they dropped 14 games. It's not like they just lost Russell.

I'm sure that a lot to do with their defense, because their offensive efficiency was actually on the same level. they lost more than 14 games really, it was 7 SRS.

[Doctor MJ]

On to your point 7 let's not forget Amare missed 29 games as well the prior season the Suns had Marbury as their PG (not said).

The Suns improved by about 9.5 points on offense relative to league efficiency averages. From my research I haven't found any other example in history that rises much above 6 points, and there are a bunch of those clustered at around that age.

So you're essentially looking at a 10 foot giant, and saying you're not impressed because he has an afro his head and boots on his feet. The type of offensive turnaround we saw in Phoenix simply has never come close to ever happening before, it's absurd to try to try to rationalize it away.

[Doctor MJ]

Meanwhile in a frighteningly believable alternate universe...

Pistons don't win titles without Laimbeer being there, but even yet the Magic could never get there even with Shaq who had plenty of help.

[Brenice]

^^^ (I meant Brenice's post, not JordansBulls's) The above post is exactly what I meant in my first post: how can you credit, without any proof, Isiah Thomas for the impact of Laimbeer defense? How can you say his playing style was "fake" and legitimized only by Isiah's "leadership" with a straight face? That's equivalent to deny him any credit for his personality and development as a player, without a scratch of proof to do it. Same for the other players. Straight disrespectful. Show me any proof of Isiah impact on them, and I'll rethink my opinion. As of now you've shown none.

Also, IMO what won the Pistons their rings was indeed their defense&rebounding first mindset. I have my doubt on the efficacy of their unsportsmanlike behavior on the court toward victory. It was a public facade, but basketball is won with skill and sweat, not with unsportsmanlike fouls and behavior.

Another point: I don't see how a 6' PG who peaked at around 23ppg at .52 TS% on 38mpg could ever be considered the best score-first point guard, when at the moment we have in the league three other pgs in Paul, Williams and Rose who managed respectively 23ppg at .60 TS%, 20ppg on .566 TS%, 25ppg on .55 TS% while hovering around 8-11 apg. All clearly better scoring seasons.


Ah, forgot to answer to the Nash point: it is straight ignorance to imply that a player who coexisted throughout his life with Spondylolisthesis, a degenerative back illness that force him to work constantly to keep his body particularly fit and requires constant attention, a guy who played through a smashed face more than once in the playoffs, who has all time great ball control in the paint, where he scores a lot, doesn't have tenacity and toughness and is still healthy at a relatively advanced age because he shied from contact. Not even disrespectful, straight hate.

Just because you don't recognize Laimbeer being a fake tough guy, don't mean he isn't. He played the role. Good job. Nash can be as tough as you want, but he ain't Isiah tough. Let me know when he is ever on a tough team. He is finesse. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I ain't talking about fighting or anything like that.

Nash has never had Zeke's hunger. You wouldn't understand.

[Brenice]

when Suns were healthy they still sucked so that doesn't really change the point. they went at about .250 when Nash was injured so that pretty much means they were garbage when Nash was off the floor. you would have to be Suns fan to know things like that, but when Nash was going to the bench late in the 3rd quarter, they would ALWAYS lose their advantage. it's some small sample of couple games, we're talking about YEARS of consistent results.

Pistons don't win titles without Isiah being there, but even yet Suns could never get there even with Nash who had plenty of help.

HELLO!!!!!

[Doctor MJ]

Just because you don't recognize Laimbeer being a fake tough guy, don't mean he isn't. He played the role. Good job.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the description, I don't think that adequately describes how opponents felt about him.

I remember an interview with Robert Parish that went something like this:

"Did you hate the Lakers?"

"Nah, tons of respect for the Lakers, I hated the Pistons...actually that's not true. I respect all of the PIstons a good deal, except for Laimbeer. To this day I hate Bill Laimbeer."

"Really, why?"

"Because of how dirty he was. He was the only guy who after the play was decided, and you were in mid-air, would purposefully take your legs out from under you so you would land upside down."

Incidentally, a play like that (not by Laimbeer obviously) is what happened to Bill Walton which started off his horrendous injury problems which almost drove him to suicide because of the pain.

It says a lot about 80s basketball that Laimbeer could get away with this. Had he done this in the 60s, I think Wilt might have actually killed him. But he got away with it, and it absolutely helped the Pistons.

[Aeternus]

Just because you don't recognize Laimbeer being a fake tough guy, don't mean he isn't. He played the role. Good job. Nash can be as tough as you want, but he ain't Isiah tough. Let me know when he is ever on a tough team. He is finesse. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I ain't talking about fighting or anything like that.

Nash has never had Zeke's hunger. You wouldn't understand.

Look, the point is, there's no basis for saying if Laimbeer behavior is either Isiah's merit or not, because I wasn't there in the locker room with them, and you weren't either, as far as I know. But when you start saying "ok, Nash is tough, but Isiah is tougher" and "Nash never had Isiah's hunger", which is something, at this point, clearly subjective and hardly palpable, and use it as a reason to disprove statistical studies and logic, it's clear there's no basis for a constructive argument to be made.

Take no offense in this, but to me this "toughness" and "hunger" kind of arguments remember vividly kids getting mad arguing whose dad's stronger, or when a bit older, whose dick's longer.

BTW, Laimbeer may have very well helped his team with his unsportsmanlike behavior, but so did doped athletes. I don't see anybody celebrate them though.
(hyperbole) Might as well injure all the opposing players before the games, if he felt he needed unfair advantages.

[Brenice]

That's how you want to look at it. Though the league wants to take the toughness out of the game, you have to have some of it. It's part of the game. There was a thread a few weeks ago about who were the toughest guys in basketball history. You want to minimize it why? Because of Nash? Are you out there defending David Robinson when these forums question his toughness?

I always heard commentators talk about Iverson and his toughness. Same for Zeke. You could see it in their play. You want to limit things to physicality. It is more than that. It was in their aggression with and without the ball. Challenging people. Mentality, win at all costs/take over the game/give me the damn ball, nevermind, or I'll go to hell to get that rebound. Or how about, I'll go take the damn ball and take your arm off with it. Nash don't have that in him. Deal with it.

[Brenice]

Look, the point is, there's no basis for saying if Laimbeer behavior is either Isiah's merit or not, because I wasn't there in the locker room with them, and you weren't either, as far as I know.

Who was the leader of the Pistons? Was it Laimbeer? Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Nash, leader of the Suns. Bird, leader of the Celtics, even though you had McHale and Parish. Magic became the leader of the lakers.

Now I know you gonna pretend like it could have been any other Piston. But then, you would be faking. It certainly wasn't Rodman. Wasn't Dumars. Wasn't Vinnie. Who was it? Oh, it was Chuck Daly.

Stop faking. Leave the faking to Bill Laimbeer.

[Aeternus]

I have no intention of faking. When I mentioned Daly I didn't mean he was the leader of the Pistons (although of course the coach always has heavy weight in the motivating of a team), I meant that what made the Pistons D so good had clearly much more to do with an all time defensive coach's defensive schemes than with the "intensity" brought by Isiah. I doubt I'd want to try to dispute that.

And matter of fact yes, I defend guys like Robisnon, Dirk and Gasol or Kevin Martin when they are attacked about their toughness. Especially in Robinson's case when I feel that a too monotonous offensive game was more responsible for his relative playoffs disappointments than any lack of toughness from an army (marine?) guy.

Also, you may call toughness things like take out one's legs in mid air like in Doctor MJ example, I will call it the opposite: cowardice. For what are you trying to accomplish by cheating that way if not to escape a direct and fair confrontation with your opponent's skills?

[bastillon]

So you're essentially looking at a 10 foot giant, and saying you're not impressed because he has an afro his head and boots on his feet. The type of offensive turnaround we saw in Phoenix simply has never come close to ever happening before, it's absurd to try to try to rationalize it away.

LOVE IT

[Brenice]

Also, you may call toughness things like take out one's legs in mid air like in Doctor MJ example, I will call it the opposite: cowardice. For what are you trying to accomplish by cheating that way if not to escape a direct and fair confrontation with your opponent's skills?

That was Laimbeer. I do recall that I said Laimbeer was fake(cowardice). Isiah was not known for that. He was known for his aggressive, tenacious play, not dirty play. His taking over on offense. His tenacious play on both ends of the court. He set the tone. Please don't ask me to go get stats or examples. Go watch some games he played in. Don't limit that to the seasons he played in the championship either. We don't need a scientific calculator.

[MarJJMar]

Nash has never had Zeke's hunger. You wouldn't understand.

My head hurts just from reading your posts. You simply can not make a rational argument.

You are making the dumbest claims ever.

[Brenice]

[Brenice]

My head hurts just from reading your posts. You simply can not make a rational argument.

You are making the dumbest claims ever.

The truth hurts. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I don't know why you all in your feelings about anything. I don't see you making any arguments out here, rational or irrational. All I see you doing is crying when someone says something about the almighty Steve Nash. If I was to praise him about everything you would be all on my......nevermind. I apologize for saying anything but Nash is the greatest.

[Warspite]

Looking at Dalys team in Cleveland and early Pistons I dont see any evidence of Dalys def coaching.


When ever a player joined the Pistons as a FA or traded for after the 1st practice Isiah/laimbeer took him into the shower and whipped his ass. They made it clear that they would do as they were told and accept there role or the beatings would continue. They left no doubt that Isiah was in charge.

[rrravenred]

So your argument that Isiah was a good leader is that he performed violent hazing (not even doing it himself, using the team's biggest nastiest player instead)?

[Doctor MJ]

So your argument that Isiah was a good leader is that he performed violent hazing (not even doing it himself, using the team's biggest nastiest player instead)?

Well when you put it that way...

[RandomKnight]

It seems clear from the vote and the relative strength of the arguments that this question has been pretty well settled.

It's all Nash by a wide margin.

Really should not have been a question in the first place.