Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread III

[I_Like_Dirt]

No, because if there is free agency, then cities like Cleveland and Toronto won't be able to keep superstar players. That's a proven fact. For the NBA to succeed in small markets, they need to get rid of free agency.

...or they need to get rid of maximum contracts. Seriously, with a soft cap and no max contracts, there is absolutely no way Wade and Lebron take $15 million/season in order to sign on the same team with the Heat rather than taken $50 million/season in order to stay with their own teams. They did take that $15 million/season when the other altenative was taking $15 million/season with slightly bigger raises. Who locked the players out in order to get those max contracts?

[Indeed]

The NBA should just hit the reset button, start up with new rules that completely ban free agency, because realistically, that's the only way small market teams like Toronto will ever stand a chance. Imagine the Raptors if McGrady, Vince, Bosh, and Stoudamire were never allowed to leave. DYNASTY!!!

Or the players could just agree to shorter contracts and they could have all the "freedom of movement" they want. The owners offered it but the players turned it down.

Why?

I think the players need to agree to shorter contracts, so there are more FA in play every year.

However, owners need to do more. Money should be shared between owners in the first place to have a parity playing field, then farm system needs to be implemented to ensure more talents to share around.

At this moment, without a farm system or shortage in talent, shorter contracts will hurt small market teams, as they became the farm teams of others.

[Reignman]

The NBA should just hit the reset button, start up with new rules that completely ban free agency, because realistically, that's the only way small market teams like Toronto will ever stand a chance. Imagine the Raptors if McGrady, Vince, Bosh, and Stoudamire were never allowed to leave. DYNASTY!!!

Or the players could just agree to shorter contracts and they could have all the "freedom of movement" they want. The owners offered it but the players turned it down.

Why?

They did. They offered to chop a year off of their current max deal length.

The owners gave them even MORE "freedom of movement", why would they reduce that?

Come on, you and I both know why.

Just say it, I want to hear it. Many NBA players don't know what it means to "honour your contract". They want all the benefits of long-term guaranteed years AND they want the ability to force themselves to whichever team they prefer.

That's what the agents want as well.

Why do you think these guys are so against the punitive lux tax and the no SnTs for tax teams?

You'd have to be blind to not see what the players want. They want the small markets to dish out the dough and they want to play for the big markets to play for in their prime.

Put it this way, when Ben Rothlisberger forces his way to Chicago or NY I'll agree with you.

[Reignman]

The NBA should just hit the reset button, start up with new rules that completely ban free agency, because realistically, that's the only way small market teams like Toronto will ever stand a chance. Imagine the Raptors if McGrady, Vince, Bosh, and Stoudamire were never allowed to leave. DYNASTY!!!

Or the players could just agree to shorter contracts and they could have all the "freedom of movement" they want. The owners offered it but the players turned it down.

Why?

Job security?

Besides, shorter contracts means shorter stays in Toronto. You don't want shorter contracts. You want a ban on free agency. That's your only hope guys. Sorry.

Job security? Weren't you guys the same ones that have been harping how these guys are the best of the best of the best and how they are driving the business and in fact, underpaid?

LOL @ job security.

I'm ok with shorter deals with a hard cap (no max franchise tag) even as a Toronto fan.

[Reignman]

No, because if there is free agency, then cities like Cleveland and Toronto won't be able to keep superstar players. That's a proven fact. For the NBA to succeed in small markets, they need to get rid of free agency.

...or they need to get rid of maximum contracts. Seriously, with a soft cap and no max contracts, there is absolutely no way Wade and Lebron take $15 million/season in order to sign on the same team with the Heat rather than taken $50 million/season in order to stay with their own teams. They did take that $15 million/season when the other altenative was taking $15 million/season with slightly bigger raises. Who locked the players out in order to get those max contracts?

I agree with you on everything except the soft tax. It should be a hard cap.

And the owners did sign a bad deal, no need to keep harping on that, that's why they are making sweeping changes. You know, learning from your mistakes and all. Someone should've told the player that the last CBA has nothing to do with this negotiation.

[RapTelligence]

From the Paul Pierce article on wiretap.

“A lot of players know I’ve been around 13 years and this is my second lockout. I got a lot of respect. I know what’s going on both for the league and the union. A lot of players have been calling me and asking me about decertification. … The agents were trying to push this for months. It came to a point with the whole fiasco with Derek and Billy. I didn’t know the ins and outs of that, nor did I ask [Fisher and Hunter] about that or even think that it was even true.

What fiasco is he talking about?

[I_Like_Dirt]

Just say it, I want to hear it. Many NBA players don't know what it means to "honour your contract". They want all the benefits of long-term guaranteed years AND they want the ability to force themselves to whichever team they prefer.

What would you define as honouring a contract? No player has just plain stopped playing for his team because he wanted to play somewhere else. Owners have the ability to decide where the players are going to play for the duration of their contract, either by upholding the contract or by trading it to somebody else. Heck, if they feel the players aren't honouring their contract, they could move to find the player in breach of contract but they don't because regardless of particulars like that the franchise is still better off to either keep or trade the player.

Outlawing free-agency entirely is illegal. Fighting that fight is a big waste of time and money, particularly when other alternatives such as eliminating max contracts are staring the owners right in the face.

[C Court]

Why are we comparing the NBA to the NFL? It is virtually impossible for any sport to be like the NFL. The NFL is a revenue machine, fueled by fan passion that is unlike any other.

Thinking that a hard cap will make the NBA like the NFL is like thinking that someday Harvey's will be just like McDonalds if only they offered a rib sandwich.

We are comparing the NBA to the NFL because they are the gold standard in NA sports. It's not impossible to do anything. The NFL has just as many game-changing "stars" as the NFL, except their system doesn't let those stars run roughshod over the league and join up to build super teams.

It's ok to give up, but i'd prefer it if you guys just prefaced your posts with "I'm ok with the status quo because I personally can't come up with a better solution".

Well the CEO of the Green Bay Packers told ESPN that it would be impossible to recreate the Packers in a new small market - so there's one impossibility within the NFL model.

Is it entirely impossible for the NBA to be like the NFL? NO. Is it most improbable and highly unlikley that the NBA morphs into the NFL? YES.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Job security?

Besides, shorter contracts means shorter stays in Toronto. You don't want shorter contracts. You want a ban on free agency. That's your only hope guys. Sorry.

Job security? Weren't you guys the same ones that have been harping how these guys are the best of the best of the best and how they are driving the business and in fact, underpaid?

LOL @ job security.

I'm ok with shorter deals with a hard cap (no max franchise tag) even as a Toronto fan.

Nope. Wasn't me. I'm the guy who argued about competitive parity, but you impolitely decided to leave that thread without responding. to you I guess

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1137203&start=165

As for job security - if I have to explain to you that 2 3yr contracts worth $2 million/year is different than 6 1yr contracts worth $2 million/yr, then I'm done arguing with you. Complete waste of my time.

[J-Roc]

The CEO of the Green Bay Packers isn't a source for anything.

And there's no reason the NBA can't be a scaled down version of the NFL model. The NBA even has a huge tv deal.

[Fairview4Life]

Just say it, I want to hear it.

Job security. You have already been told that.

[knickerbocker2k2]

[quote="Reignman"]Put it this way, there are fans that like to see the same teams roll over others and they are ok with that, while others would like to see different teams compete year-in / year-out'.

That's what it comes down to, & that's essentially what it comes down to.

I can't believe any "Raptor fan" would be against having a model like the NFL.

It is fine if you want a system that benefits you as a fan of small.midmarket but is another to argue that its actually better for the league as whole when the evidence shows the opposite.

What evidence? The NFL has a hard cap with franchise tag. They turn over playoff teams like none other and they have all of their fanbases fired up because everyone believes they will have a shot at some point in the near future.

That's why they are the biggest revenue generator and NBA could learn quite a few lessons.[/quote]

NFL & NBA are totally different sports and have diffent business models. The big assumption you make is that NFL is popular because of its parity. What proof do you have this is the case?

Secondly it is evident the NBA most healthy when their are dynasties. Just loo at revenues in the times you had parity.Is it consquence that its height of popularity was lakers vs celtics, or jordan dominace in 90s or resurgence of lakers celtics late in this decade?


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[hsb]

The NBA should just hit the reset button, start up with new rules that completely ban free agency, because realistically, that's the only way small market teams like Toronto will ever stand a chance. Imagine the Raptors if McGrady, Vince, Bosh, and Stoudamire were never allowed to leave. DYNASTY!!!

Toronto isn't a small market team. The Raptors have one of the biggest markets in the NBA.

That's not a dynasty.

[C Court]

The CEO of the Green Bay Packers isn't a source for anything.

And there's no reason the NBA can't be a scaled down version of the NFL model. The NBA even has a huge tv deal.

You post. I scratch my head.

Are you saying the CEO of the Green Bay Packers is an idiot who doesn't understand the NFL model?

You can't be like the NFL in a scaled back model. It's impossible to have a lesser influence over fans, advertisers, television networks and marketing partners and still be anywhere near what the NFL model is.

Its like trying to be like Google without their massive influence and technology.

[Reignman]

Just say it, I want to hear it.

Job security. You have already been told that.

And like I already said, if they are the best of the best of the best why do they need job security? Who is going to steal their job?

[MEDIC]

Personally, I think the NBA has the potential to have a great overall product & rival the NFL in terms to success. There has to be some major changes to the system though.

If other posters don't feel the same way about this potential, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Either way, this is the gold standard & what they should be striving to be.

[MEDIC]

It would be interesting to see if the NBA enabled hand checking again if the players would complain/ revolt (mainly the star players).

[J-Roc]

Either way, this is the gold standard & what they should be striving to be.

The bottom line.

We're at point A. The NFL model is point B. No matter how you get there or how long it takes, it has to be the goal.

And really, it works for people on both sides of the argument. Real revenue sharing, and unguaranteed contracts.

[Fairview4Life]

Just say it, I want to hear it.

Job security. You have already been told that.

And like I already said, if they are the best of the best of the best why do they need job security? Who is going to steal their job?

Another player? One of the 60 new draftees every year, or one of the hundreds of guys playing in Europe? You seem to think you're making some kind of profound point here. The owners set max contract lengths, something that I believe is probably illegal without negotiating with a union. The players are willing to agree with that system if they get some other concessions, like a large portion of BRI. This is how negotiations work. The owners and players work towards a mutually acceptable compromise on contract length, BRI share, etc.. The players currently feel that between the owners current offer and a free market, they can do better in a free market, so they have decertified (basically). Now individual teams are free to offer whatever contracts they want. They can offer one year deals if they want. Or completely unguaranteed contracts. They could offer Lebron minimum wage. They just can't setup a league wide max contract or free agency rules, since there is no collective bargaining and that would be illegal. They can find some sort of balance that is acceptable to the union, or they can start to actually compete with each other.

Did you know that teams can currently offer 1 year unguaranteed contracts? Exactly like you want? It's true. They just can't convince an in demand player to sign them since another team will usually offer them a better deal.

[Reignman]

Personally, I think the NBA has the potential to have a great overall product & rival the NFL in terms to success. There has to be some major changes to the system though.

If other posters don't feel the same way about this potential, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Either way, this is the gold standard & what they should be striving to be.

Agreed 100%. The defeatist attitude is weird to me. We're talking about basketball here, the only sport where you just need a ball and maybe an egg crate and you can play it anywhere.

This sport should be up there with the likes of soccer due to it's accessibility.

There's no reason basketball shouldn't set its eyes on the top in the north american market.