RealGM Top 100 List #71

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

David Thompson

Hall of Fame 1996
2x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-ABA 2nd team
ABA Rookie of the Year 1976
5x All-Star

Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star

Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

James Worthy

Hall of Fame 2003
2x NBA 3rd Team
Finals MVP 88
3x NBA Champion
7x All-Star
Tiny Archibald

Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star


Bobby Jones

1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

Billy Cunningham

Hall of Fame 1986
ABA MVP 1973
3x All-NBA 1st team
1x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-ABA 1st team
NBA Champion 1967
5x All-Star


Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo

1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x Defensive Player of the Year
4x All-Defense 1st Team
3x All-Defense 2nd Team
8x All-Star

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

At the defensive end, we have 4x DPOY Dikembe Mutombo and versatile Bobby Jones who made 1st team All-Defense more than anyone else in history in his 1st 10 seasons. Both are efficient shooters who would get you 10-15ppg. Deke was a great shotblocker and good rebounder while Bobby was a good shotblocker who racked up steals and was a very good passer and coach on the floor as well -- the man Larry Brown called Superglue.

For scorers, we have multitalented Billy Cunningham who was a very good NBA player for years plus an ABA MVP in his short stretch there. James Worthy was the best finisher on those Showtime breaks with a finals MVP. Adrian Dantley's raw numbers put everyone except maybe prime Shaq and Barkley in the shade for his combination of scoring and efficiency, while David "Skywalker" Thompson was the man Michael Jordan says he modeled his game after. Finally, Nate "Tiny" Archibald combined great scoring and high assist totals, only man to ever lead the league in both in the same year.

I will go with Bobby Jones here, he led a team of weak defense scorers to the best record in either league as a rookie star and he was superb in a variety of roles from F/C in his early years to F/G in his final ones, from starter at 2 different positions to sixth man of the year. This is a guy who gladly sacrificed minutes and numbers for his team and who could be a key part of virtually any contending team.

Denver's rise to prominence came Jones' rookie year, and their fall away from elite SRS status came in '77-78.

How did that fall happen?

Denver's DRtg in '76-77: #1 in the league
Denver's DRtg in '77-78: 15th out of 22

The big difference? Denver went from being amazing at generating turnovers, to not so much.

We look at steals and see they went down a ton, and that much of that was Jones getting less steals (though steal leading the team in steals).

We consider that the lack of steals might be due to inability to recover from perimeter gambling and look at blocks. We see that blocks when down quite a bit, and that much of that was Jones getting less blocks.

Of course even if you're convinced, you might say, "Well that makes for a really short period for Jones as having huge impact", and that's a good point. I'm coming down similar to what I said about Ginobili: Minutes are a major issue, but per minute wise, Jones was still having strong positive impact for quite a while. In the end, in terms of the total amount of elite-level minutes, I think Jones is pretty solid compared to the competition he's facing this far down in the project.

VOTE BOBBY JONES

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- Can't say I'm enthused about anyone here. Probably the next two will be Tim Hardaway and Mark Price. Who else is left -- Dennis Johnson ? Mookie Blaylock? Louie Dampier?

Shooting Guards -- On the other hand, there are lots of interesting shooting guards left
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Chris Mullin
Hal Greer
Earl Monroe

Shooting Forward -- also some real talent:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- the strongest position with lots of good candidates
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Amare Stoudamire/Terry Cummings/Elton Brand
Not quite ready for Chris Webber or Shawn Kemp yet (two guys I didn't like their games but talented enough to start getting a look here over the Paul Silas/Buck Williams types that would be the main alternatives)

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
----------?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder.

[Dipper 13]

Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Will Chet "The Jet" make the cut?





Mr. Paine has made some fine points on his blog that should interest the "statheads".

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2938

When we think of the greatest teams in the history of the Chicago Bulls, we think of the core group of the 1990s -- Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, etc. -- a squad that in one incarnation or another managed to win six NBA crowns in 8 years. But the Jordan-era Bulls were not the first Chicago team to rise to hoops prominence. Under coach Dick Motta in the the 1970s, the Bulls forged a top-flight defensive team that made the playoffs in 7 of 8 seasons between 1970 & 1977, including 2 consecutive Western Conference Finals appearances in 1974 & '75. Though they neither won a title nor were as strong as the 1990s version of the franchise, this was a terrific team that was always a threat in the seventies.

One thing that's interesting to me about the 1970s Bulls is the presence of a guy named Chet Walker. Walker has to rank as one of the most underrated players in league history, and I can't for the life of me understand why -- the man was a 3-time NCAA All-American, a 7-time NBA All-Star, he was super durable (he played the max number of games 5 times and only missed 13 games between 1965 & 1974), he scored almost 20,000 career points and averaged 20.3 per 36 minutes, and was one of the league's most efficient scorers to boot (top 10 in TS% for 5 seasons, top 10 in FT% 6 years). If we convert his Basketball on Paper stats to the 2008-09 offensive environment of 108.3 points per 100 possessions, this is what you get:



Those efficiency numbers would have statheads drooling if Walker put them up nowadays. But for some reason, Walker is so underrated that his name doesn't even come up frequently in discussions of underrated players... He's even too underrated to appear on "all-underrated" lists!

Why? Despite his more appealing statistical traits (at least among APBRmetric circles), his Hall of Fame probability according to our own metric based on past voting patterns is just 53.8%. One look at what the selectors tend to value tells you why Walker slips below the radar so often in all-time player discussions. Unlike the analytical community, the Hall committee likes gaudy per-game averages; Walker's 18.1/7.1/2.1 career line is nothing to scoff at, but it makes him look more like, say, Shareef Abdur-Rahim than Elgin Baylor. The HoF process also rewards players who won championships, as well as those who made strong bids in the MVP award balloting. As we mentioned earlier, Walker's Bulls never won a title, and when he did get a ring, it was as a third banana (behind Wilt Chamberlain & Hal Greer on the 1967 76ers). Meanwhile, Walker's best showing in the MVP voting was a measly tie for 16th in 1975.

Don't let the reputation (or lack thereof) fool you, though: Walker was a terrific player, especially at his peak. His raw stats may be solid if unspectacular, but his advanced metrics -- his per-minute rates and his efficiency numbers -- are very impressive. Mark this down as another case of today's more informative statistics giving a measure of long-overdue credit to a guy that has, to some degree, fallen through the cracks of NBA history.



Couple recent interviews.



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_090202.html

2/2/2009

As one Hall of Famer told me recently, "Billy Cunningham is a great player and well deserving (being in the Hall). But he backed up Chet."

Chet laughs at the comparison, long accepting the politics of the game and short memories perhaps too large an obstacle to overcome.

"Not being in the Hall of Fame is good in a way," Chet jokes. "It keeps me in the news with people asking, 'Why is he not there?'

"The last time I was up I think I got 14 votes (of 18 needed out of 24)," Chet says. "They called me and told me I got more than 13. Wouldn't say how many more. But they said that was the most anyone got who didn't get in."

Walker says he doesn't watch the game that much anymore, but does believe guys work hard at it. He says he enjoys most watching the Spurs and the way they play and has liked watching the Magic this season.

His favorite player today?

"Paul Pierce," says Walker. "He's, to me, the ultimate small forward. Good shot and can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. The kid from New Orleans, Chris Paul. He's a complete player, exciting. He's enthusiastic and brings a lot to the game, like Kobe.

"I concentrate mostly on the forwards," says Walker, who arguably was the fundamental role model of his era, sort of the Tim Duncan of forwards, quiet and effective. "Forward is very important because it's in between. You have to run the break, rebound, play defense away from the basket. I think it's the most talented position in basketball because you have to do so many things. You have to go inside and rebound and then catch up with the guards and fill the lanes."

Walker says, to him, the biggest difference in the game now is the way the floor is open with the three point shot and zone that moves players out of the lane.

"When I played you had Wilt and Russell and Thurmond sitting there waiting for you," says Walker. "You didn't have access to the basket like they have now. Centers stayed inside."




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_100111.html

1/11/2010

One of the great joys of the job I have is to have gotten to know the pioneers of the NBA and to still be able to hear their analysis and reactions to the game. One of those guys I regularly hear from is Chet Walker, the great former Bull and 76er from Bradley and, at least in my opinion, the most deserving player not in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

Chet’s still a union guy, and he says he hates to see the possibility of Gilbert Arenas losing his contract in the suspension over his guns-in-the-locker room controversy. Still, at the same time, Walker said it pains him to see the abuses from some among players in the game today.

Walker was one of the group of defendants who sued the NBA over the plans to merge the NBA and ABA. The historic settlement of the so-called Oscar Robertson suit (Robertson was players’ association chief) created free agency in the NBA.

“You hate to see the way some players today are abusing everything we worked so hard for and gave up so much for,” says Walker, who faced an effective blackball that prematurely ended his career for his actions with the players’ association. “I wasn’t the only one. There was Oscar (never offered a coach or GM job even as he’s still a successful businessman), Joe Caldwell, Archie Clark. Guys really were kicked out of the league. For these guys like Arenas to abuse all the hard work we went through to enable them to become free agents and make all the money they do is ridiculous.”

But Walker also wonders at the same time why their association was so silent.

“This isn’t common with players,” believes Walker. “The union should have come out and said these are basically good guys working hard for the game and what you saw with Arenas is the exception, only a small percentage of guys. You let it look like this is a league wide thing against the players and I don’t believe that.”

And while Chet was at it, there’s this pet peeve he has living in Los Angeles. It’s a great franchise, but given Hollywood and all not the most sophisticated fan base or media. So if you live in L.A. like Chet does, as he’s still involved in the movie business you constantly read about the Lakers of the last few years being one of the great teams ever. It’s enough to make you… call someone outside L.A.

“Best team!” came Chet’s voice rumbling over the phone. “The best team ever was our (1966-67) 76ers. We played Boston (with Bill Russell and six Hall of Famers) nine times, the Royals with Oscar and Lucas, the Lakers with West and Baylor, some of the best teams in the history of the NBA. There weren’t all these expansion teams. That was the best team in the history of the league and everyone keeps ignoring it. They keep talking about how good the Lakers are. They’re playing marshmallows all season.”

It’s a frequent debate, and generally loses out in this ESPN generation when nothing much mattered before 1979 because there was no tape. So I did a bit of canvassing. Matt Guokas, now the Orlando broadcaster, played on that 76ers team and points out in the league’s 25th anniversary, which came after the Celtics had won eight straight titles, the poll of experts named that 76ers team the best team in NBA history.

That team, truly, was the first to popularize the so-called triangle offense in the pros since Wilt Chamberlain, though he still averaged 24.1 per game, committed to being a passing center, and finished third in the league in assists behind Guy Rodgers and Robertson.

Coach Alex Hannum played with Tex Winter at USC and they learned the triple post (or then center opposite) offense under Sam Barry.

“Wilt was about 30 and had broken every scoring record,” said Guokas. “He didn’t care about that anymore. He wanted to be the catalyst in a team game and still led us in scoring (and led the league with 24 rebounds per game). We called it ‘shape up’ then. Wilt would be in the left block and who had the ball was at the foul line extended and we’d fill the left corner and form the triangle. You had to go into Wilt or he’d have you taken out of the game. There were no set plays, pick and pops, slips. We kind of took it for granted we were expected to win every time. When we lost it was a big deal.”

They won 68 games, but were running so far ahead of even the 60-win Celtics that season Hannum decided to give them a break and stopped in Vegas on a western trip with a few day break. “It wasn’t a good idea,” laughed Guokas about the three game losing streak.

But the 76ers would go on to blow through Royals of Oscar and Lucas three straight after losing the first, the Celtics in five, winning the first three by an average of double figures and then the Warriors of Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond in six.

Wayne Embry, now a consultant with the Raptors, was on that Celtics team. Said Embry: “They toyed with us that season. We came back and beat them in seven in the playoffs the next season, but that one year they probably were the best ever.”

[therealbig3]

Vote: Cunningham
Nominate: Greer

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Mutumbo

Nominate Melo

[drza]

Vote: Mutombo
Nominate: Chris Webber

Willing to nominate Ben Wallace as well, if he gains traction.

[lorak]

vote: Cunningham
nominate: DeBusschere

[lukekarts]

Vote: Mutombo
Nominate: Greer

[-Kees-]

VOTE: Bobby Jones
NOMINATE: Shawn Kemp

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Dikembe Mutombo
Nominate: Shawn Kemp

[Dipper 13]

Sixers even played an exhibition game at Walker's old HS.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Nominate: Hal Greer

[penbeast0]

Do y'all realize that Dipper's comments on Chet Walker are the ONLY actual discussion taking place here . . . and he isn't even nominating him?

[therealbig3]

Do y'all realize that Dipper's comments on Chet Walker are the ONLY actual discussion taking place here . . . and he isn't even nominating him?

There's been plenty of discussion of Cunningham, Jones, Kemp, and Mutombo in past threads, though, so I guess at this point, whatever anyone wanted to say has been said already.

Nobody's really talked about Greer though, I'll try and make an argument for him when I have the time.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Billy Cunningham

Amazing how the threads go by. We've got Billy, Bobby, and Dikembe dominating the vote here, and I found myself thinking 'Alright!, Those are the top 3 on my list." Then I looked at the list of nominees and realized those are the 3 that have been around the longest, so you'd kind of expect they might be my top 3.

I nominated Mutombo first, but right now have him below the other two. What this really amounts to are question marks about the two old white guys with longevity issues which made me hedge away from them when they weren't being discussed in the nominations. However they now have gone through that vetting process, and remembering all the positives, and still haven't seen arguments against them that have convinced me, so they move up.

Cunningham vs Jones is a debate too in my mind that I'll admit I could use more thought on. There's no doubt though that Cunningham got more respect in his time, and so my default remains to vote him first.

Nomination: I'll stick with Shawn Kemp.

I'll say though that this choice is hardly one I feel terribly vehement about.

[Laimbeer]

Vote: Tiny
Nominate: Lucas

[ElGee]

vote: David Thompson
nominate: Chris Webber

I'll hold off on re-posting arguments for both (they are in previous threads) as to not derail the conversation from Adrian Dantley and why he was nominated. I know Penbeast wasn't the only person who voted for him...

[Dr Positivity]

We really need discussion but I just don't have a lot to say on Mutumbo vs Cunningham. Both are probably ideally 2nd or 3rd best on a contender guys - But personally I think building from the C position out is the smarter bet here, gun to my head

As for the nomination. Bringing it back to the Melo thing. The results for him are simply there. His lineups have usually consisted of a good but not tier 1 PG (Miller, slightly past prime Iverson, Billups), big men who defend and rebound (Kmart, Nene Camby) and shooters (JR, Kleiza, Afflalo, etc.). That's decently complimentary but pretty similar to Nique and Durant's best teams in both style and caliber. Probably less talented than Durant's. And the Nuggets were as good as any of their teams. He's anchored phenomenal ORTGs with good talent and good ORTGs with average talent - and they clearly got closer to winning the title than either team, the Nuggets IMO were a clutch Trevor Ariza or not unclutch Billups from going 3-1 on the Lakers. How much more would we respect the Nuggets if they came from the East and did that in the Finals? A lot more. I give the Nuggets my unofficial silver medal for that year which matters more to me than Finals appearances which are dictated by conference.

His efficiency isn't outstanding but he's usually at the top of the list for volume of FGM and FGA at the rim. Here are the numbers for him at the rim (first column) and FT line from 07 on, compared to Lebron's from 07 on and Durant from 09 on that's tracked on hoopdata

Melo
07 - 6.0/9.4, 7.1/8.7 FTs
08 - 4.8/7.2, 6.0/7.7 FTs
09 - 3.7/6.5 ,5.6/7.1 FTs
10 - 4.7/7.9, 7.4/8.9 FTs
11 Den - 4.1/7.3, 6.9/8.3 FTs
11 NY - 3.6/5.4, 6.1/7.0 FTs

Lebron
07 - 5.0/6.9, 6.3/9.0 FTs
08 - 5.7/8.0, 7.3/10.3 FTs
09 - 4.8/6.6, 7.3/9.4 FTs
10 - 5.0/6.8, 7.8/10.4 FTs
11 - 4.3/5.9, 6.4/8.4 FTs

Durant
09 - 3.4/5.1, 6.1/7.8 FTs
10 - 3.7/5.3, 9.2/10.2 FTs
11 - 2.8/3.6, 7.6/8.7 FTs

According to hoopdata from 07 the Nuggets have ranked 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, and 1st in FGM at the rim and in that time they've been 8th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd in FT/FGA. They ranked outside of the top 10 in 3P every year until 2011, indicating that what makes the team tick is scores at the rim. To me Melo is certainly the most responsible for that, both with his own shots there and by the finishing big men getting open shots out of the attention he helps create

As for the midseason trade.The roster from 4th best guy on for the Nuggets was Danillo Gallinari/Aaron Afflalo, Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, Wilson Chandler, Al Harrington, Chris Anderson, Timofey Mozgov and for the Knicks it was Ronny Turiaf, Landry Fields (playing like a scrub), Shawne Williams, Toney Douglas, Shelden Williams, Derrick Brown, Anthony Carter, Bill Walker, Jared Jeffries and Roger Mason. That's basically the 07 Wolves right there. And the Nuggets had a good coaching fit in Karl and the perfect homecourt for their running team, the Knicks had a Mike D'Antoni who can basically coach one style and is confused otherwise. If the Nuggets had kept the Billups, Afflalo, Kmart, Nene/Anderson team in tact without Melo and the Knicks had the same Felton, Chandler, Gallo, Amare team, and the deal still ended up with the Knicks at a 40 W pace and the Nuggets at 50-55, then I would've been concerned. But with this many moving parts and the feeling out process varying in such a small sample size? I'm not going to ignore what I feel has been clear franchise player impact for an entire career due to that

I would also argue Carmelo is one of the few players who is definitively more valuable in the postseason than regular season, due to the fact that when defenses clamp down in the PS, isolation midrange shots turn from bad shots to respectable ones because better options aren't there. Which was also shown in the 2009 playoffs when he was clearly the more valuable player than Chauncey, who had an argument for MVP of the team in the RS

I don't think Carmelo is a perfect player and I don't love his attitude, but we're deep in the project now and into for the most part, 2nd options, complimentary players, guys who only peak for a few years. Melo to me is a legit top 10-15 player for the extent of his career and top 6-8 for two years (counting 09 because of what he didn't he PS) - which is enough for me over a guy like Joe Dumars

[penbeast0]

Cunningham and Jones weren't quite contemporaries, Cunningham is retiring as Jones is coming in. Both did have 10 year + careers, were combo forwards, had stretches as 6th men (Jones for longer), played 2 years in the ABA (Cunningham in the earlier, less talented years). Jones played one year longer but in that time managed to play 170 more games! while Cunningham averaged 7 minutes more a game. Both played at North Carolina and had the same nickname there, "The Kangaroo Kid," for their leaping ability.

Looking at their per36 numbers to get a feel for their playing styles for those who never watched them . . . Cunningham gives you 22/11/4, Jones 16/8/4 -- although some of this is pace based, Cunningham was the stronger and more explosive player. . . . Jones gives you .100 points of efficiency advantage (.606 to .509) and blocks almost 2 shots/36 to Cunningham's 0.5 while both get steals at a high rate, plus of course Jones is the only player to ever have 10 1st team All-Defense awards (and a 2nd in 11 seasons) while Cunningham got none (though he was an above average defender) -- Jones was one of the smartest and most opportunistic players ever and maybe the greatest defensive true forward to ever play. Both played in only 5 all-star games but Cunningham is All-NBA or All-ABA each of those years plus ABA MVP while Jones only gets one All-ABA and a Sixth Man of the Year award (the smaller minutes showing up).

So, why do I favor Jones over Cunningham? Because I think the efficiency and defensive advantage is bigger than the scoring and rebounding advantage although those are more "sexy" for All-NBA/MVP type voting particularly when the scoring is at league average or below efficiency.