Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread III

[anj]

ESPN's Ric Bucher reported news from a source on Sportscenter Wednesday night, saying that David Stern is prepared to improve the owners' offer, but that he will cancel the season if the players do not accept.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/player ... 427&spln=1

Do his ultimatums mean anything anymore?

[dagger]

ESPN's Ric Bucher reported news from a source on Sportscenter Wednesday night, saying that David Stern is prepared to improve the owners' offer, but that he will cancel the season if the players do not accept.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/player ... 427&spln=1

Do his ultimatums mean anything anymore?

We're pretty well at the point of no return. There doesn't seem much interest on either side in a 50-game schedule starting in February like we had in 1999 because it is too physically taxing on the players and produces a lot of bad basketball. A 66-game schedule starting on Christmas Day would still be more taxing than the normal schedule, but a bit less so.

Also with the anti-trust case, I don't think Stern can make bluff moves. Everything has a legal purpose now as well as a labour purpose.

[ATLTimekeeper]

ESPN's Ric Bucher reported news from a source on Sportscenter Wednesday night, saying that David Stern is prepared to improve the owners' offer, but that he will cancel the season if the players do not accept.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/player ... 427&spln=1

Do his ultimatums mean anything anymore?

No. Although after a certain point the season will obviously be cancelled. JJ Reddick was interviewed a few weeks ago and he basically blabbed that the players' don't believe the season will be cancelled until January. As long as the players believe that, they'll keep playing chicken.

The only interesting wrinkle is Kessler leaving.

[ranger001]

Its probably not a good description by Bucher. Its just a fact, if a deal isn't done soon the season will be lost since the NBA doesn't want a 50 game season again(or so they say).

[J-Roc]

^^
NBA is just saying they don't want a 50 game season. NHL waited until mid February to cancel their season.

[ballboy_forever]

The truth is finally coming out. All the BS about system was just happy talk for PR purposes. The owners don't give a flying fig about competitiveness and parity - OK maybe a little. The players say they wan't a freer market but really the points at issue will not make much difference.

To the owners "system" means an enforcement mechanism to make sure that the players don't get more than 50%. To the players it means that if they get their way they can get something more than 50%, maybe as much as 55%.

That's why we have a stalemate.

[Reignman]

I'm praying for the players to reject the deal again. Please do it, the changes aren't substantial enough and I really want to see who flinches first once this is in the courts.

It will take a cancelled season for sweeping changes.

[Reignman]

BTW, how much of this is posturing by the league in lieu of the impending court cases? We know the players did this sham disclaimer in the hopes of getting a deal done but what about the league?

Any chance this is to strengthen their position as good-faith bargainers in front of the courts?

[Fairview4Life]

BTW, how much of this is posturing by the league in lieu of the impending court cases? We know the players did this sham disclaimer in the hopes of getting a deal done but what about the league?

Any chance this is to strengthen their position as good-faith bargainers in front of the courts?

The likelihood of the courts finding that this is a sham disclaimer are extremely slim. You can call it a sham all you want, but it is far more likely that the courts will not find it a sham disclaimer.

[Reignman]

BTW, how much of this is posturing by the league in lieu of the impending court cases? We know the players did this sham disclaimer in the hopes of getting a deal done but what about the league?

Any chance this is to strengthen their position as good-faith bargainers in front of the courts?

The likelihood of the courts finding that this is a sham disclaimer are extremely slim. You can call it a sham all you want, but it is far more likely that the courts will not find it a sham disclaimer.

You have no way of knowing that. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Fairview4Life]

BTW, how much of this is posturing by the league in lieu of the impending court cases? We know the players did this sham disclaimer in the hopes of getting a deal done but what about the league?

Any chance this is to strengthen their position as good-faith bargainers in front of the courts?

The likelihood of the courts finding that this is a sham disclaimer are extremely slim. You can call it a sham all you want, but it is far more likely that the courts will not find it a sham disclaimer.

You have no way of knowing that. Your guess is as good as mine.

There's a lot of legal precedent supporting my guess, however. This isn't a coin flip.

[Indeed]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

[dhackett1565]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

[ranger001]

Legally it may not be a sham but we all know that they are collectively bargaining for the next CBA on bahalf of all players. Practically its a sham.

[mintsa]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

Agreed....I dont think the Raps will get a "break" in a "lock out lottery". The Raps need a season to ensure the tanking continues and secure the lottery balls the old fashion way.

[Indeed]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

It doesn't guarantee us from getting a high pick with a short season. There are more teams in tanking mode with the lost of a half season, and there could be more injuries without pre-season games (on other teams).

It will help us more having pre-season with Jonas on board, and deciding our future guards (Barbosa is gone, everyone else are expiring).

[mintsa]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

It doesn't guarantee us from getting a high pick with a short season. There are more teams in tanking mode with the lost of a half season, and there could be more injuries without pre-season games (on other teams).

It will help us more having pre-season with Jonas on board, and deciding our future guards (Barbosa is gone, everyone else are expiring).

I see what your saying but I'd rather roll the dice on the Raps tanking a 66 game seasons than the NBA giving the Raps a "shot" in a lock out "NHL style" draft lottery.

[dhackett1565]

Thought someone said there will be no better offer from the owners.
However, it seems this is the core offer where both sides will base on this one to make changes to it.

Still disappointed with owners not willing to share TV revenues between themselves, and players can always attack that point of owners not doing their best before pushing the cost to the players.


I prefer not to have a season, so the Raptors will benefit more from the draft and salary cap.

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

It doesn't guarantee us from getting a high pick with a short season. There are more teams in tanking mode with the lost of a half season, and there could be more injuries without pre-season games (on other teams).

It will help us more having pre-season with Jonas on board, and deciding our future guards (Barbosa is gone, everyone else are expiring).

We'll have that pre-season with Jonas and Barbosa gone no matter what, next year. The only thing to be gained from this season is our young players getting more playing time, under our new coach's system, and getting a better shot at a top pick (under the NHL system, it would be 50-50 whether the Raps get a top 10 pick or a bottom 20 pick), with only a 6% chance at the first pick.

[Indeed]

We have no idea how the draft lottery will shake out if there is not season. Judging by the NHL lockout, it would not go well for the Raptors. The Raps need that short season to ensure a high pick.

It doesn't guarantee us from getting a high pick with a short season. There are more teams in tanking mode with the lost of a half season, and there could be more injuries without pre-season games (on other teams).

It will help us more having pre-season with Jonas on board, and deciding our future guards (Barbosa is gone, everyone else are expiring).

We'll have that pre-season with Jonas and Barbosa gone no matter what, next year. The only thing to be gained from this season is our young players getting more playing time, under our new coach's system, and getting a better shot at a top pick (under the NHL system, it would be 50-50 whether the Raps get a top 10 pick or a bottom 20 pick), with only a 6% chance at the first pick.

1) If there is a season, we might sign Barbosa. Why? We want to keep an asset rather than have something gone in the free market.
2) Our new coach might not able to do much, and perhaps it gives our young players more tension to learn things on the fly. You want to learn behind the scene and practice first.
3) We might very well be a playoffs team. More teams want to tank, some teams hit with injuries, some teams starting off poorly. However, with the disappointing season last year, our players will try to win more than tank. Most likely we will be a better team in record
4) When a season starts, every team need to fill their minimum salary cap, and most likely we are going to get more bad contracts before some of our existing one ends. Best to wait for another year.

[dhackett1565]

1) If there is a season, we might sign Barbosa. Why? We want to keep an asset rather than have something gone in the free market.
2) Our new coach might not able to do much, and perhaps it gives our young players more tension to learn things on the fly. You want to learn behind the scene and practice first.
3) We might very well be a playoffs team. More teams want to tank, some teams hit with injuries, some teams starting off poorly. However, with the disappointing season last year, our players will try to win more than tank. Most likely we will be a better team in record
4) When a season starts, every team need to fill their minimum salary cap, and most likely we are going to get more bad contracts before some of our existing one ends. Best to wait for another year.

1) I doubt it. Colangelo has gone on and on about flexibility and cap space - so if we re-sign Barbosa, it will be to a very reasonable contract to back up DeRozan.

2) Total experience under the new coach's system will increase if we have a season. Making next training camp all that much easier to implement the system to a further extent. Better to have a tough year working through the system this year than to have a year of no contact with the coach and a sudden drop into the new system, new teammates, etc all at once.

3) No way do the Raps make the playoffs. We might not get a top 5 pick again, but we should be a lock for top 10, and as I said before, assuming the NHL scenario (which isn't even the worst case) gives us only a 50-50 shot at a top-ten pick.

4) The Raptors will be 3 roster spots and 2.2 million dollars short of the minimum salary and roster. So you think that BC is going to go spend a bunch of cap space... why again? Any damage he might do this season he could do even more easily next offseason, so I don't see the benefit of delaying that - especially if there's a Hedo scenario. Better for next summer to be when we dump that bad contract (if it happens) than the summer after.