Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread III

[S.W.A.N]

There is no way I want the nba to decide our future. Play the season so we can suck on our own and create our own destiny.

If no season, I sure the nba will screw us. Perhaps make draft based on winning percentage of last 5 years. Giving us a mid to late lotto pick.


I not going to cry if we don't totally suck this year.It would mean that we have had significant development from somewhere in our roster and that is always a good thing.

Playing this season is a win win for the raptors. Either get high draft pick that could be our superstar we need, or we don't suck cause someone on the roster got way better. (or we find that coaching makes a big difference) that is the beauty of this season. No matter what the outcome of the games there are positives to be had.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Anybody else curious to see how James Johnson looks? Last we saw him, he looked slim as ever. I wonder if he's gained it back, or has he stayed in shape. Again, he's the only SF on the roster, so I anticipate an acquisition in that area...hopefully somebody who can shoot, and provide spacing.

As far as the CBA talks itself - I refuse to get my hopes up. That said, it's now or never for both sides imo.

[Indeed]

Anybody else curious to see how James Johnson looks? Last we saw him, he looked slim as ever. I wonder if he's gained it back, or has he stayed in shape. Again, he's the only SF on the roster, so I anticipate an acquisition in that area...hopefully somebody who can shoot, and provide spacing.

As far as the CBA talks itself - I refuse to get my hopes up. That said, it's now or never for both sides imo.

You forgot about Kleiza?

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Anybody else curious to see how James Johnson looks? Last we saw him, he looked slim as ever. I wonder if he's gained it back, or has he stayed in shape. Again, he's the only SF on the roster, so I anticipate an acquisition in that area...hopefully somebody who can shoot, and provide spacing.

As far as the CBA talks itself - I refuse to get my hopes up. That said, it's now or never for both sides imo.

You forgot about Kleiza?

I'd be surprised Kleiza is fully recovered from knee surgery. I do expect him back at some point, but not sure if he'll be ready so soon.

[floppymoose]

I'm not an optimist because the escrow issue is huge. If they can't agree on how to guarantee the owners get their 50-50 split of revenues, the split is meaningless. With the players' share, there is a guaranteed mechanism to ensure they get their guaranteed split: The league debits the teams whatever is necessary, and writes each player a cheque - which is what happenned this year when the players didn't get 57%. But when the overage goes the other way, too much ends up being spent on salaries, the escrow fund (a withholding from each players' pay cheque) is supposed to go to the owners. The problem is, with a 50-50 split, the old escrow formula may not be enough to compensate the owners. And the more the league budges on system issues - like giving taxed teams a full instead of a mini-MLE as proposed - then the more likely it will be that the old escrow formula will not be enough to compensate the owners for salary spending above 50% of revenues.

Having enough escrow so that you can greatly reduce BRI all at once is effectively a rollback on current contracts. To me this is a separate issue. If you have a cap system that works, then in a small number of years the salary split *will* be within escrow tolerance of a 50% BRI split (if that's what they settle on). the extent to which the owners fall short of their 50% in the meantime is basically the extent to which current contracts aren't rolled back. With a hard enough cap I really really doubt it will be an issue for more than a couple of seasons. Basically new contracts will not be as high as they would otherwise, because there will be less cap room to go around as older contracts are still being paid out.

[theSkinny]

I want NBA ball back, thats it..

I don't care at all anymore who gets what, in the end it really won't have much of an impact on fans, so who cares one way or the other.. In the end I just want games to be played and the sooner the better.

[KG1585]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Derek Fisher will attend Friday's labor settlement meeting, source tells Y! Given legal complications, it suggests a deal is within reach.
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As president of NBPA, Fisher and players have to protect selves from league charge that disbanding of union was a "sham" negotiating tactic.

I refuse to get my hopes up. Been fooled too many times now.

[Ponchos]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Derek Fisher will attend Friday's labor settlement meeting, source tells Y! Given legal complications, it suggests a deal is within reach.
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As president of NBPA, Fisher and players have to protect selves from league charge that disbanding of union was a "sham" negotiating tactic.

I refuse to get my hopes up. Been fooled too many times now.

I don't believe you. You went to the effort of posting those tweets. They obviously had an effect on you.

You're a believer just like meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[G R E Y]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Derek Fisher will attend Friday's labor settlement meeting, source tells Y! Given legal complications, it suggests a deal is within reach.
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As president of NBPA, Fisher and players have to protect selves from league charge that disbanding of union was a "sham" negotiating tactic.

I refuse to get my hopes up. Been fooled too many times now.

I have been trying to keep track of lockout developments, parsing through the debates for both sides. With respect to the union officially disbanding, under what terms can Derek Fisher be allowed to be there? To represent solely himself? Is that really credible?

[Ponchos]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Derek Fisher will attend Friday's labor settlement meeting, source tells Y! Given legal complications, it suggests a deal is within reach.
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As president of NBPA, Fisher and players have to protect selves from league charge that disbanding of union was a "sham" negotiating tactic.

I refuse to get my hopes up. Been fooled too many times now.

I have been trying to keep track of lockout developments, parsing through the debates for both sides. With respect to the union officially disbanding, under what terms can Derek Fisher be allowed to be there? To represent solely himself? Is that really credible?

Personally, my faith is with Boies. If he gives the OK for Fisher to attend settlement meetings then I think there will be no risk of it coming back and biting the players in the ass in the future.

[G R E Y]

Personally, my faith is with Boies. If he gives the OK for Fisher to attend settlement meetings then I think there will be no risk of it coming back and biting the players in the ass in the future.

Well sure ok it's best to leave it to the lawyers involved who know all the nuances, but precisely because of the latter, surely a) it's a risk, so b) can anyone hazard a guess as to what the argument for DF's inclusion could actually be?

[DreamTeam09]

I'm calling that they finlly agree on something, just for the sake of it...

[Ponchos]

so b) can anyone hazard a guess as to what the argument for DF's inclusion could actually be?

The settlement negotiations have most likely headed into the territory of forming a new union and a new CBA. Fisher is an interested party to any new union or new CBA. Why shouldn't he be there?

Again, Boies knows American anti-trust law better than me or you or anyone else on these forums. If he believes there is no risk, then it is very likely there is no risk.

[G R E Y]

so b) can anyone hazard a guess as to what the argument for DF's inclusion could actually be?

The settlement negotiations have most likely headed into the territory of forming a new union and a new CBA. Fisher is an interested party to any new union or new CBA. Why shouldn't he be there?

Again, Boies knows American anti-trust law better than me, and you and anyone else on these forums. If he believes there is no risk, then there is no risk.

Wojnarowski mentioned the possibility of his inclusion being problematic for the non-union union. Saying that Boies thinks it's fine is not really an argument. Saying that means we're all just typing for nothing. But there are those here who are clearly more familiar than others with the intricacies of the laws in question. Law is open to interpretation. My point is to find out from those here who are knowledgeable about legal tenets of these types of situations how far the law is possibly being bent and to what extent that can (if at all) be used against the players.

Keep in mind that Adam Silver has plenty of anti-trust experience under his belt, and if there's anything that cases have in common, it's that they're unpredictable. I'm not looking for an argument, just clarification about the situation as it currently stands - I am not making any assumptions about what agreements may or may not be in place - not how it most likely is, or where it may be headed.

[Ponchos]

Saying that means we're all just typing for nothing.

Never have truer words been written.

I would agree that it is at least a probability that the inclusion of Fisher would be problematic for the case of Hunter/Boies. But I would still put my money on that if Fisher returns to the settlement negotiations it will create no legal problems for the outstanding lawsuits.

[RapTelligence]

There are good lawyers making good money on both sides. Besides Hunter, Stern, Silver and maybe half of the NBA GM's are also lawyers. So everybody is in good hands.

[knickerbocker2k2]

I don't think NBA is trying to trick the players into sending Fisher into meeting and than pulling out and using this as proof of how the decertification was a sham.

-I think the NBA is really adamant about having Christmas games. Despite the reports we have heard about hard-line owners/and willing to miss the season, I think their whole game plan was to basically having season starting before xmas. I think they wanted to miss games to hopefully have the players cave in once they missed pay checks and threat of missing more. This kind of explains Stern crazy threats/ultimatum in the last negotiations, when the conventional wisdom was that the season would not be in jeopardy and best offers from both sides would come in late December. He wanted the players to cave and when they didn't, it explained his unprofessional response.

-Even if this is ploy/trap by NBA, it would be crazy and waste of time. If their thinking is at this level, than the season is truly lost. If there is no season, we will have couple of court rulings. Even if they win the initial rulings, how long can they keep this sham defence? As more months go by without formal union, it becomes more evident the union is not bargaining for the players.

[G R E Y]

I don't think NBA is trying to trick the players into sending Fisher into meeting and than pulling out and using this as proof of how the decertification was a sham.

-I think the NBA is really adamant about having Christmas games. Despite the reports we have heard about hard-line owners/and willing to miss the season, I think their whole game plan was to basically having season starting before xmas. I think they wanted to miss games to hopefully have the players cave in once they missed pay checks and threat of missing more. This kind of explains Stern crazy threats/ultimatum in the last negotiations, when the conventional wisdom was that the season would not be in jeopardy and best offers from both sides would come in late December. He wanted the players to cave and when they didn't, it explained his unprofessional response.

-Even if this is ploy/trap by NBA, it would be crazy and waste of time. If their thinking is at this level, than the season is truly lost. If there is no season, we will have couple of court rulings. Even if they win the initial rulings, how long can they keep this sham defence? As more months go by without formal union, it becomes more evident the union is not bargaining for the players.

I don't think that the DF issue is some big NBA scheme either, but you never know what may end up getting saved for later strategies, should these last ditch meetings fail to result in an agreement.

About Stern's so-called crazy ultimatums, to me they just come across as par for the course in negotiations. Keep in mind that Hunter also said some aspects of the deal were 'blood issues'. As far as I understand the rules they're governed by, not being willing to negotiate on an issue could've landed Hunter with an unfair labour charge. Still, it was the NBA's choice not to pursue it, chalking it up to rhetoric. The other issue about the ultimatums is rooted in the reality of lost revenue over time - the longer the negotiations continue, the more money is lost, the more the owners have to recoup, hence the depreciated 'readjustments' in the subsequent offer/offers(?)

[G R E Y]

There are good lawyers making good money on both sides. Besides Hunter, Stern, Silver and maybe half of the NBA GM's are also lawyers. So everybody is in good hands.

Should the RealGM Union decertify or disclaim interest in order for me to get a better cut?

[knickerbocker2k2]

About Stern's so-called crazy ultimatums, to me they just come across as par for the course in negotiations. Keep in mind that Hunter also said some aspects of the deal were 'blood issues'. As far as I understand the rules they're governed by, not being willing to negotiate on an issue could've landed Hunter with an unfair labour charge. Still, it was the NBA's choice not to pursue it, chalking it up to rhetoric. The other issue about the ultimatums is rooted in the reality of lost revenue over time - the longer the negotiations continue, the more money is lost, the more the owners have to recoup, hence the depreciated 'readjustments' in the subsequent offer/offers(?)

How does moving the negotiations from 50% of BRI to 47% BRI from one day to another make any financial sense? Did the NBA just lose 3% of basketball revenue because players didn't agree to the deal based on Stern artificially created deadline date?

That whole posture was just part of the negotiations. Stern didn't believe that nor did the players. But Stern was trying to get deal done, one that was favourably to the owners before that date. By setting that artificial date and the nonsense ultimatum he was trying to artificially create sense of urgency that would naturally happened towards later December. This is because the owners really wanted to start the season before xmas. Preferable couple of weeks prior so that players would be in better shape for holiday games.