RealGM Top 100 List #74

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Chris Webber

1x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
Rookie of the Year 1994
5x All-Star


Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star

Hal Greer

Hall of Fame 1982
7x All-NBA 2nd
1x NBA Championship
10x All-Star

David Thompson

Hall of Fame 1996
2x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-ABA 2nd team
ABA Rookie of the Year 1976
5x All-Star

Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star

Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar


Tiny Archibald

Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star


Bobby Jones

1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Mark Price

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

At the defensive end, we have the versatile Bobby Jones who made 1st team All-Defense more than anyone else in history in his 1st 10 seasons. An extremely efficient shooter who regularly made top 10 in fg% despite not being a center, a good shotblocker who racked up steals, and a very good passer and coach on the floor as well -- the man Larry Brown called Superglue. At the opposite end of the spectrum we have Shawn Kemp, one of the greatest basketball bodies ever with sometimes dominant impact but whose immaturity kept him from reaching his potential.

For scorers, Chris Webber put up 20/10+ for his 5 year peak. Adrian Dantley's raw numbers put everyone except maybe prime Shaq and Barkley in the shade for his combination of scoring and efficiency, while David "Skywalker" Thompson was the man Michael Jordan says he modeled his game after. Hal Greer was a solid second banana to Dolph Schayes then to Wilt Chamberlain for more than a decade. Finally, Nate "Tiny" Archibald combined great scoring and high assist totals, only man to ever lead the league in both in the same year.

I will go with Bobby Jones here, he led a team of weak defense scorers to the best record in either league as a rookie star and he was superb in a variety of roles from F/C in his early years to F/G in his final ones, from starter at 2 different positions to sixth man of the year. This is a guy who gladly sacrificed minutes and numbers for his team and who could be a key part of virtually any contending team.

Denver's rise to prominence came Jones' rookie year, and their fall away from elite SRS status came in '77-78.

How did that fall happen?

Denver's DRtg in '76-77: #1 in the league
Denver's DRtg in '77-78: 15th out of 22

The big difference? Denver went from being amazing at generating turnovers, to not so much.

We look at steals and see they went down a ton, and that much of that was Jones getting less steals (though steal leading the team in steals).

We consider that the lack of steals might be due to inability to recover from perimeter gambling and look at blocks. We see that blocks when down quite a bit, and that much of that was Jones getting less blocks.

Of course even if you're convinced, you might say, "Well that makes for a really short period for Jones as having huge impact", and that's a good point. I'm coming down similar to what I said about Ginobili: Minutes are a major issue, but per minute wise, Jones was still having strong positive impact for quite a while. In the end, in terms of the total amount of elite-level minutes, I think Jones is pretty solid compared to the competition he's facing this far down in the project.

VOTE BOBBY JONES

[penbeast0]

Re: RealGM Top 100 List #72

by penbeast0 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:39 am

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Mark Price
Dennis Johnson?

Shooting Guards -- Surprised Greer went in ahead of Sharman
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe

Shooting Forward -- Some incredible talent -- though short peaks really hurt Hawkins and Hagan:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- the strongest position with lots of good candidates
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote David Thompson

Man, I don't really love any of these guys. I guess we're getting far into the project... I'll go David Thompson who has a superstar first 4 years and then still scores a lot in 81, although the fact that he's such a distraction at that point makes me value that year less

Nominate Jack Sikma

Sikma's fallen through the cracks a bit. No he isn't a dominant player, but we're out of those... from a team building perspective building from the inside out and choosing Sikma over the guys on the board is the smart thing to do IMO... you get 18-20pts with floor spacing value, 11-12 rebounds, great passing, good defense and you get a decade of it. Is his career much less valuable than Robert Parish's?

I'm looking at Gus Williams' case too, probably the most underrated player ever now that Marques Johnson got his title belt push. Williams was a 20-22pt guy who averaged 7apg post DJ (playing with him lowered his assist numbers) and has about 7 legit seasons. 2-2.5 steal seasons most of the time, good for a top 10 all time career average. One of the fastest players ever, great fastbreak ball pusher and the guy making defenses collapse on those Sonics teams. Gus/DJ is pretty close to Isiah/Dumars stylistically, and I think like Isiah in the Pistons pair Gus' speed and ability to break down the d was the key offensively. Gus a 5th and 8th MVP vote peak and 1st/2nd team All-NBA bids. He's also a big deal in the playoffs:

78 - 18.3ppg .513 TS%
79 - 26.6ppg .516 TS% (seems weak, but the highest on the team for what it's worth) - Averages 28.6ppg (49%) in the Finals, with 31, 32 and 36 pt games!
80 - 23.7ppg .552 TS%
81 - 26.3ppg .498 TS%
82 - 32.5ppg .606 TS%
83 - 23.4ppg .546 TS%

The In/Out guys will love him too - Gus Williams holds out in '81 and the team goes 34-48 with a -1.84 SRS, not having DJ and Gus drops them from a 56 W 4.24 total contender team the year before. In 82 with no DJ Williams and Sikma go 52-30 with a 3.69 SRS, followed by a 48-34 2.88 '83 with a coked up David Thompson on the team - the Sonics have a better SRS in 82 and 83 than either of their Finals years. When he gets traded to Washington (past his prime arguably), Seattle goes from 42-40 and -0.34 in '84 to 31-51 and -5.44 in '85, while Washington goes from 35-47 and -2.36 in '84 to 40-42 and 0.15 in '85, noteably Jeff Ruland who was a 22/12/4 guy in 84 plays 37 Gs this year. Seattle's offense collapses in both 81 and 85, Washington's stays flat in 85

He's not a franchise player, but certainly a high end guard - like a rich man's Tony Parker with much greater playoff highs and a best player on a title team year WTF (Sikma was still pretty young) I think he deserves to make the list. I'm actually surprised at how small his reputation is, we all know what happens to stars' profiles when they come through on title teams and he was a 27ppg playoffs 29ppg finals guy on one!

[ElGee]

What's up with the pictures? As a student of cognitive bias, they've bothered me since the beginning of the project. But when Wes Unseld's picture is a portrait bordering on homoerotic love and Chris Webber gets the timeout (from college!?), I think something is seriously wrong. Hey, it's not like Shawn Kemp looks strung out (suggesting he IS) in his post-prime pic while Bobby Jones is seen out-leaping Julius Erving. *sigh*

[bastillon]

if Jack Sikma is being dominated, Paul Pressey deserves serious consideration at this point.

[-Kees-]

VOTE: Bobby Jones
NOMINATE: Jack Sikma

[lorak]

vote: Archibald
nominate: Mark Price

[penbeast0]

You missed the Rodman in leopard print drag smoking a cigar one . . . I look for ones that suggest features of a player's career that they are known for and if I can find one that's fun, I'll go with it.

Not sure what you mean by Wes's, I think that was Isiah that was hugging a teammate if I remember but Bobby Jones is known for defense particularly shotblocking and steals and his nickname was "The Kangaroo Kid." Oh and I went for the picture of Kemp overweight, so far as I can tell he isn't strung out. Just pull up page one of pictures on google.com and look for the most unique one and that's probably the one I'll use.

[ronnymac2]

No to Webber because he calls timeouts at bad times.

Greer is literally a question mark for me.

Being fat and doing drugs <Skywalking on drugs

I'm liking Dantley's socks.

I can't even see Bobby Jones around Dr. J's fro.

Billups providing a shoulder to cry on...

Archibald possibly just leveled a guy with his elbow. Mad cool.


In the end, Thompson over Archibald, just like last thread.

Vote: David Thompson

Nominate: Deron Williams

I like the Sikma nomination though. I'm sticking with WIlliams for now.

[ElGee]

vote: Thompson
nominate: Mark Price

Price is a no brainer.

I look for ones that suggest features of a player's career that they are known for and if I can find one that's fun, I'll go with it.

That's the whole point -- it's anchoring a single idea in people's minds, and actually it's based on what YOU think they are known for. The extra timeout against UNC is an incredibly famous moment, at the end of the Fab Five's iconic 2-years. Not once did I think of it in the months involved in this project when discussing/evaluating Chris Webber. I thought of his knee injury. His dunk on Barkley. His missed 3 in 04. Running hand offs to Bibby in 02.

When you think of Shawn Kemp you probably think of a knucklehead. I think of an incredible athlete in Seattle. Chauncey Billups? I just see terrible pullup 3's in transition or up-faking to draw fouls. And of course I remember Rodman's picture in drag -- there's also a problem giving certain players a neutral picture and some a goofy picture.

Granted, this isn't controlled science. But players you like you put up favorable pictures of and players who you think of having issues are usually reflected with a bad portrait. Heck, just at the start of the project you have a bunch of guys holding Finals MVP trophies...and Larry Bird shooting an unguarded jumper late in his career. Why not this

http://www.stopweb.com/photos/bird_1024768.jpg

or this

http://classickicks.com/wp-content/uplo ... -bird1.jpg

Bird's 2 photos I posted there were on page 1 of google images. Magic's that you used was on page 4. Poor Hal Greer doesn't even get a picture -- I'm sure that helps him stick in people's minds. Grant Hill had some weird non-action picture at Duke. Duke!? Why even subject our eyes to that 4-letter blaspheme when on page 1 of images is a picture like: http://ksm913.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/pistons81.jpg

Yada yada yada....

--

As for Mark Price, he showed huge team impact (year -- sample size -- net impact -- team MOV In):
Price 1989 7 2.4 7.8
Price 1990 9 15.6 1.4
Price 1991 16 4.8 1.4
Price 1992 10 6.9 6.3
Price 1993 7 6.1 7
Price 1992-1994 23 7.2 6.0

From 91-94 Price missed 39 games and Cleveland was a -2.1 without him and +4.1 with him. With my simple adjustment, I have that as the 16th-best multi-year stretch (5 season spans or less).

[therealbig3]

If people are seriously going to let pictures decide if they should vote for a guy or not, then they shouldn't be part of this project. Personally, I don't have a problem with the pictures at all, and I think they're pretty good for the most part.

Yeah, you're opening things up for bias by showing one moment in a player's career, good or bad, but at the same time, pretty much everyone that's part of this project knows where they rank certain players already and has a pretty good idea (in their minds) of what these players bring to the table. And people also know that to be taken seriously in any sort of discussion regarding a player, they can't harp on a guy messing up once in the clutch...in college. So really, the pictures don't influence the outcome at all imo, and it's just poking fun at certain players sometimes.

[therealbig3]

BTW, I had my mind changed about Price, even before seeing ElGee's post about him.

Vote: Tiny
Nominate: Price

[Dr Positivity]

I agree with therealbig3 that the chance of pictures actually effecting the vote for those of us who've waded through 70 pages of discussion, is pretty close to 0

[bastillon]

As for Mark Price, he showed huge team impact (year -- sample size -- net impact -- team MOV In):
Price 1989 7 2.4 7.8
Price 1990 9 15.6 1.4
Price 1991 16 4.8 1.4
Price 1992 10 6.9 6.3
Price 1993 7 6.1 7
Price 1992-1994 23 7.2 6.0

From 91-94 Price missed 39 games and Cleveland was a -2.1 without him and +4.1 with him. With my simple adjustment, I have that as the 16th-best multi-year stretch (5 season spans or less).

why not Pressey 84-89 then ? his impact was even bigger and on a better team.

[drza]

My nomination will be for either Mark Price or Ben Wallace. Wallace has no traction, which ironically is why I'm going to vote for him here. But if it makes a difference, I'll switch to Price later on.

Nominate: Ben Wallace

[ElGee]

I'm just saying, it's a real effect. Whether it reaches 1 person or not.

I actually think you're giving this group too much credit by thinking certain people don't harp on narratives and let them metastasize in their mind over time (ie "he's a loser" or a "choker" or "don't go to war with him.") It's not a big deal, but only because this project isn't a big deal. It's like saying the voting system isn't a big deal. I mean, I think it's a bad system, but it's what we're using...

@bastillon - I'm not following you here. You think Pressey should be voted over Price if he shows better in/out numbers?

[bastillon]

@bastillon - I'm not following you here. You think Pressey should be voted over Price if he shows better in/out numbers?

that was your case for Price wasn't it ?
Pressey 87-89 was +7.1 to 3.1 I don't see why that wouldn't be relevant if you're using these criteria specifically. I also don't know why Sikma is being nominated here ahead of Pressey, when Bucks without Pressey were -4 ito pt differential. watching that team I thought Terry Cummings was equally important as Sikma.

[Dr Positivity]

Well, there's a big gap between saying there's posters who believe in those Bill Simmons style player playoff mentality judgments (for right or wrong), and saying posters who've been in this project for 3 months and over 70 threads have so little analytical basis for their votes that a fat picture of Kemp or Webber calling a timeout is going to change who they vote for.

While I've stayed away from this out of a "I don't care who's username this is coming from, I just care the post" mentality attempted 99% of the time - if I was to be perfectly honest - I don't think anyone who judges a star's NBA career by 5-9 G samples of how his teammates played when he was on the bench (aka when he isn't playing and has 0 influence on the resulting play, which the entire +/- differential is based on), in a sport like basketball with tens of interconnected variables stacking up like a massive Jenga tower, should be criticizing anyone else's methods or thought process when voting. That's like an arsonist freaking out at litterers for breaking the law. I'm not that upset with someone lighting things on fire for fun in the context of this project, because these threads need as much traffic as they can get. But I can only laugh if that same person tries to lecture others on their voting methodology being flawed. Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones

But that's just me