Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

[Brenice]

I liked Stevenson on the Wizards too. Sturdy defender + 50/50 when Gil was Agent0. But too many other players were extreme 1-way, offense or defense only. Same for Phoenix. Ball-players play both ends.

[ElGee]

Do you realize that Phoenix and San Antonio played 9 times in 2007 and the Suns outscored the Spurs by 7 points? Or that the series was 2-2 before suspensions crippled Phoenix? Or that Nash couldn't play down the stretch in G1 because they couldn't stop him from bleeding? Or that Phoenix had the 13th ranked defense in the NBA that year?

There were 3 elite teams in the 2007 NBA: Phoenix, San Antonio and Dallas (arguably Houston if healthy). The Suns split against Dallas, outscoring them by 15 in 4 meetings. They took 3 of 4 from Houston. This was a team with a 15-game win streak on top of a 17-game win streak; From November 20-January 28 they were 32-2 with an OT loss and a 2-point loss, and you conclude that they had fundamental barriers preventing them from beating San Antonio!?

Did anything weird happen on November 20 to start that streak? Well, Steve Nash returned to the starting lineup. [A starting lineup (Nash-Bell-Marion-Stoudemire-Diaw/Thomas) that went 48-7 w a +9.0 MOV, losing in OT to Was, by 2 @Dal, @Min (b-2-b), v Det, @ Den (b-2-b), @ Sac and @GS.]

[JordansBulls]

Phoenix didn't have the interior defense, or the offensive creativity expansion level, of abilities a team would need, to hold up to ultimately wn a title in 05 or 07 or '10.

Not Nash's fault... if the front office made some tweaks before 2007, for 2007 and after, it would of been more interesting.

Sometimes it is about luck, sometimes it's not.

When two teams are closely matched, it's gonna come down more to luck, but when there are certain, key disparities for one team and not the other? The more complete team is gonna win.

Phoenix wasn't legitimately close to being a balanced basketball team.

You realize they had Kurt Thomas right?

[reiche]

H Lately (last 2 years at least), Kobe Bryant is getting beat more than Nash...somehow LA still has a good defense.

LOL. Yeah right. Kobe is a far, far better defender than Nash. Dude is useless on D. What a joke.

[JordansBulls]

H Lately (last 2 years at least), Kobe Bryant is getting beat more than Nash...somehow LA still has a good defense.

LOL. Yeah right. Kobe is a far, far better defender than Nash. Dude is useless on D. What a joke.

Agreed

[Bank Shot]

To be fair, I don't think Kobe's closed out on a shooter in about 2 years.

[JordansBulls]

To be fair, I don't think Kobe's closed out on a shooter in about 2 years.

Still better defender than Nash.

[bastillon]

Phoenix didn't have the interior defense, or the offensive creativity expansion level, of abilities a team would need, to hold up to ultimately wn a title in 05 or 07 or '10.

Not Nash's fault... if the front office made some tweaks before 2007, for 2007 and after, it would of been more interesting.

Sometimes it is about luck, sometimes it's not.

When two teams are closely matched, it's gonna come down more to luck, but when there are certain, key disparities for one team and not the other? The more complete team is gonna win.

Phoenix wasn't legitimately close to being a balanced basketball team.

You realize they had Kurt Thomas right?

did you just bring up Kurt Thomas as a reason to be impressed or something ?

[JordansBulls]

did you just bring up Kurt Thomas as a reason to be impressed or something ?

Good defense.

[Rapcity_11]

JB, are you ever going to address the Amare scoring 37 PPG against Duncan discussion?

[reiche]

To be fair, I don't think Kobe's closed out on a shooter in about 2 years.

And yet the Lakers are consistently among the best at defending the three...

And he's still far better than Nash.

[Doctor MJ]

And yet the Lakers are consistently among the best at defending the three...

Of note:

For the past 3 years, the Lakers' opponents have taken huge numbers of 3's at weak percentages. Before that there was no such trends. So something has happened in the past 3 years on defense that has enabled the Lakers to force opponents into desperation 3 pointers where they showed no real ability to do this before.



I stand corrected.

[reiche]

What's sad is that a old, past-prime Kobe is still far better defensively than the rather useless Nash, who literally does nothing on D...except get consistently torched by opposing PG's of course.

I was watching the 05 series vs the Spurs and it's just laughable how truly awful this guy is on defense.

Just terrible. Parker looked like he was having the time of his life lol.

Most overrated player ever.

[Doctor MJ]

What's sad is that a old, past-prime Kobe is...

...still 4 years younger than Nash.

[reiche]

Mileage.

[Ballings7]

Phoenix didn't have the interior defense, or the offensive creativity expansion level, of abilities a team would need, to hold up to ultimately wn a title in 05 or 07 or '10.

Not Nash's fault... if the front office made some tweaks before 2007, for 2007 and after, it would of been more interesting.

Sometimes it is about luck, sometimes it's not.

When two teams are closely matched, it's gonna come down more to luck, but when there are certain, key disparities for one team and not the other? The more complete team is gonna win.

Phoenix wasn't legitimately close to being a balanced basketball team.

You realize they had Kurt Thomas right?

Yes, I realize this.

Kurt did give Duncan the toughest time that whole series in '07, whether he scored or not... he was the only one who could at all. Kurt was/is a crafty, quality defensive player. Still solid to this season, though can't play as many minutes over a season as he did, he could up it for the playoffs if needed.

But he obviously wasn't enough, nor could it be expected he be.

Kurt Thomas wasn't and never has been able to be a defensive anchor for a team. Because Kurt doesn't have the overall length (standing and wing-span) or agility needed for this responsibility as a defender. He's best as a positional and rotating defender, and using his smarts and strength. He's not a guy a team would or should rely on for their interior defense, primarily. He's not a guy you're going to put out there to "protect the basket", and can complement for the other big not being proficient in that area defensively.

Regardless, the Suns needed more than one player, be it Kurt Thomas or Samuel Dalembert or Emeka Okafor, or even Kevin Garnett, to change their defensive capability level. They needed it scattered all over the whole team, from a coaching standpoint to the existing players (not there), and from a couple more players on the team (who weren't on the team).

Going on my own point here, for example, KG/Marion or Amare is not a good interior defensive pairing. KG's not a center. Marion's not a PF and is outmatched most nights. Amare's a poor defender in general. Thus, KG can't be the only guy who can be effective defensively every game up front, and playing a bit undersized at center, with a lack of help from his other big man. He'd be having to do too much, defending and rebounding, trying to make up more than he should for the other big's lackings on playing around the paint.

Kurt Thomas didn't make the Suns a balanced team, because he wasn't capable of doing that. The Suns needed more than Kurt Thomas. A lot more.

I've watched the Suns plenty enough, and when it's mattered most.... they've never been balanced enough on either side of the ball. Not dynamic enough offensively, the main thing there in having another multi-skilled creator aside from Nash to expand their offense, and help take the play-making load off for him. Also, while it was part of their style and intended to compensate for them not really having a sturdy half-court offense, they still took too many quick shots, which hurt their defensive floor balance. They just could of been a bit more selective with it. Defensively, they never had the combination of size, awareness, coaching and consistent effort on defense, which was in the mold of a contending team. They also never had a solid bench except in 2010. Even if the Lakers series in 2010 could of went 11 games, they still would of lost 6-5. They couldn't match the creativity and length on defense and offense the Lakers possessed.

That was their limit, good enough, talented enough, to get past the 1st round because of their explosive and relentless attack on the offensive side of the floor. But, Phoenix always met that one team who was just a 1/2 notch or more better, who could dictate the pace of the series, which included matching the Suns' offensive level of play. The difference being, balance.

[Rapcity_11]

What's sad is that a old, past-prime Kobe is still far better defensively than the rather useless Nash, who literally does nothing on D...except get consistently torched by opposing PG's of course.

I was watching the 05 series vs the Spurs and it's just laughable how truly awful this guy is on defense.

Just terrible. Parker looked like he was having the time of his life lol.

Most overrated player ever.

Parker averaged 20.4 PPG on 49 TS% with 4.2 APG and 4.0 TO's.

That is actually a poor performance from TP.

[Ballings7]

The '07 and '08 Suns series is where he really made a mark, which was preceded by him improving notably as a player. He scored like, almost 50 points or something in one of the games at Phoenix in the 2008 series. It was incredible to watch.

Phoenix just couldn't stick with him enough and had no real shotblocking presence at the rim, and when they did deny his drive, they always went under the screen to where he either made a jumper or passed it to an open man. Parker and Popovich have referenced this several times during the series in interviews, Parker sometimes in a tone of surprise. Because of their inability to guard Parker, Phoenix had to pick their poison with him, and got double the effects.

[Rapcity_11]

The '07 and '08 Suns series is where he really made a mark, which was preceded by him improving notably as a player. He scored like, almost 50 points or something in one of the games at Phoenix in the 2008 series. It was incredible to watch.

Phoenix just couldn't stick with him enough and had no real shotblocking presence at the rim, and when they did deny his drive, they always went under the screen to where he either made a jumper or passed it to an open man. Parker and Popovich have referenced this several times during the series in interviews, Parker sometimes in a tone of surprise. Because of their inability to guard Parker, Phoenix had to pick their poison with him, and got double the effects.

2007 Parker went for 19.3 PPG on 49 TS% 5.7 APG and 3.5 TO's.

Again, that's actually a below average performance from TP.

In 2008, he killed it, absolutely. 29.6 PPG on 58 TS% 7 APG and 3.2 TO's.

[bastillon]

Shaq and Amare were on that team and Nash didn't really guard Parker most of the time. Parker wasn't even that good, Ginobili was more of a killer.